OT: NBA Finals

[superjohn]

I think Kerr is a very, very good coach. I think Kerr knew that the game 4 results had a lot more to do with the Cavs being gassed and the supporting guys shooting 4 for 24 than it did with the doubling strategy.

But as you said it's Lebron with 3 scrubs and a janitor. Why would you go one on one with the best player in the world, wouldn't it make a lot more sense to let the three scrubs and a janitor beat you? Also I told you I'm not a Warriors fan a bunch of times, why do you keep calling me one?

 

[superjohn]

yeah let's take a shot at Della for clutching and grabbing (he's the only one - watch Shumpert) when JR Smith thought he was a pulling guard trying to take out Green?

JR got called for a flagrant on that play, the play where Della locked up Green's arm and brought him down he and Green were both called for a common foul.

 

[polycom]

I know you're a big fan, but surely you can't believe that the Ws have been impressive in this series? I mean, if Irving and Love were playing, I'd say dropping 2, winning 1 in OT, and pulling away in the 4th in 2 others would be a very good showing. With one of Irving and Love, it's a decent showing. With neither Irving and Love, it's a poor showing, at best. I mean, at one point they were playing against 2 guys who weren't drafted and Mike Miller. It's really ridiculous. Somebody should put together a 10 minute video of the games when LBJ is on the bench. It's hilarious, in a sad way.
Next year will be interesting, because it will indicate whether GS caught lightning in a bottle this year, like a new pitcher that hitters have yet to figure out, plus being injury free and playing against injured teams in the playoffs, or whether they can sustain it.

The Cavs may get swept with that lineup. Love and Irving don't play defense well enough to win in 5. Irving is a horrible defender, Curry would score 40.

 

[champs99and04]

The Cavs may get swept with that lineup. Love and Irving don't play defense well enough to win in 5. Irving is a horrible defender, Curry would score 40.

Right. With the way @TasteofUConn is carrying on about how bad the Warriors are I'm not sure he's ever seen Love and Irving defend a pick and roll.

Undoubtedly, Cleveland is better with Irving and Love in the lineup...and them being there is probably the difference between LeBron scoring 40 a game on 40% shooting and 26 a game on 50% shooting. But those two are minus players defensively, and against a pick and roll bomb shell like Golden State, you really don't want your one and your four to be minus defensive players.

There will be a lot of hollering about how limited Cleveland is - and they are - but what they won't tell you is how Golden State forces coaches into inconvenient personnel decisions that don't quite jive with what people are seeing. They can't play Mozgov as much as they want because plodding big men are death against the Warriors, especially when forced to deal the smaller carnations of their lineup. The cross-matches have ended with him guarding Iguodola, and his ability to read the floor both in isolation plays and pick and rolls simply makes that untenable for Cleveland. The off-ball adventures of guys like Smith are far more costly against a team like the Warriors - if Cleveland's entire lineup was intact, they would have to make some difficult decisions regarding where to hide Love and Irving.

The Cavs were never winning this series without Irving and Love. With them, they may well have. But, while it's true that Golden State has been granted the injury variable to an extreme I can't remember any other champion ever be afforded, they're about to finish up the postseason 16-5. That may not be dominant, but it isn't far from it, and their combination of depth and versatility allowed them to adjust to any lineup configuration thrown at them all year, and that would have been the case even with injury mode being off.

 

[superjohn]

Right. With the way @TasteofUConn is carrying on about how bad the Warriors are I'm not sure he's ever seen Love and Irving defend a pick and roll.

Undoubtedly, Cleveland is better with Irving and Love in the lineup...and them being there is probably the difference between LeBron scoring 40 a game on 40% shooting and 26 a game on 50% shooting. But those two are minus players defensively, and against a pick and roll bomb shell like Golden State, you really don't want your one and your four to be minus defensive players.

There will be a lot of hollering about how limited Cleveland is - and they are - but what they won't tell you is how Golden State forces coaches into inconvenient personnel decisions that don't quite jive with what people are seeing. They can't play Mozgov as much as they want because plodding big men are death against the Warriors, especially when forced to deal the smaller carnations of their lineup. The cross-matches have ended with him guarding Iguodola, and his ability to read the floor both in isolation plays and pick and rolls simply makes that untenable for Cleveland. The off-ball adventures of guys like Smith are far more costly against a team like the Warriors - if Cleveland's entire lineup was intact, they would have to make some difficult decisions regarding where to hide Love and Irving.

The Cavs were never winning this series without Irving and Love. With them, they may well have. But, while it's true that Golden State has been granted the injury variable to an extreme I can't remember any other champion ever be afforded, they're about to finish up the postseason 16-5. That may not be dominant, but it isn't far from it, and their combination of depth and versatility allowed them to adjust to any lineup configuration thrown at them all year, and that would have been the case even with injury mode being off.

If Love never went down the Cavs never would have realized how good Tristan Thompson is. Losing Irving really hurts and it looks like Cavs just won't have enough healthy bodies to take the series, I picked Cavs going into series but think it probably would have been Warriors in 7. Cavs became a better defensive team with Love and Irving out but in the end they need the extra offense and bodies. It would have been a different style of series with them as well, they are liabilities on defense and it would have been a far more wide open high scoring style of play, this current Cavs group has to muck it up and they have done a very good job of making it ugly and forcing the Warriors to play that style. Would have been nice to see the Cavs fully healthy and I think it would have forced both teams to play better and it would have been a more fun series to watch.

 

[champs99and04]

If Love never went down the Cavs never would have realized how good Tristan Thompson is. Losing Irving really hurts and it looks like Cavs just won't have enough healthy bodies to take the series, I picked Cavs going into series but think it probably would have been Warriors in 7. Cavs became a better defensive team with Love and Irving out but in the end they need the extra offense and bodies. It would have been a different style of series with them as well, they are liabilities on defense and it would have been a far more wide open high scoring style of play, this current Cavs group has to muck it up and they have done a very good job of making it ugly and forcing the Warriors to play that style. Would have been nice to see the Cavs fully healthy and I think it would have forced both teams to play better and it would have been a more fun series to watch.

You're probably right about Thompson, though I see no reason he and Love couldn't have co-existed. Definitely agree about the styles, this is probably played in the 120's with Love zooming outlet passes around the court and Irving jacking threes off the dribble. It has been kind of fun to watch the insane LeBron takeover, but I can't help that with all the injuries we were really deprived of some legendary series this season.

 

[JSM1970]

Oh, sure, that's what happened. Green is a nut job, dirty and not likeable whatsoever.

JR got called for a flagrant on that play, the play where Della locked up Green's arm and brought him down he and Green were both called for a common foul.

 

[storrsroars]

It's been said before, but the thing this series will be remembered for is that LBJ was on the losing end again. Except for hardcore Cavs/LBJ supporters, few will remember it was Lebron and scrubs. As if MJ could've won with the same cast of characters (he wouldn't).

 

[UConn990411]

It's been said before, but the thing this series will be remembered for is that LBJ was on the losing end again. Except for hardcore Cavs/LBJ supporters, few will remember it was Lebron and scrubs. As if MJ could've won with the same cast of characters (he wouldn't).

I highly doubt that. No one looks negatively at the '07 finals loss, and the Cavs got swept in that one. Sure, people will bring up LeBron being 2-4 in the finals all-time, but he won't be criticized if (when?) the Cavs end up losing this series.

 

[Kembacity]

Oh, sure, that's what happened. Green is a nut job, dirty and not likeable whatsoever.

God, get your head out of Lebron's crevasse

if you don't think Dellavedova is a dirty SoB on the court, you need to open your eyes. He's embodying Bruce Bowen out there, they should kick him out of the league. In every series so far he's made a couple of clear dirty plays and not gotten called for them. You can't try to injure someone because they give you a hard pick or foul you, well you can, but it makes you a dirtbag. I'm not going to say Draymond is my favorite player the way he carries on, but I think what he's doing is exactly how Lebron and Wade acted in Miami, just overreacting every chance they get, but at least he's not trying to bust knees or trip people while he's on the ground like that scumbag Aussie

 

[mauconnfan]

JR got called for a flagrant on that play, the play where Della locked up Green's arm and brought him down he and Green were both called for a common foul.

Your opinion on that play but to keep calling out Della for his play while others are doing worst? He plays hard and has to in order to be on the court. Not sure if it's any more dirty than anyone else out there but you're all over him. There was worst is my point don't care about the call.

 

[mauconnfan]

God, get your head out of Lebron's crevasse

if you don't think Dellavedova is a dirty SoB on the court, you need to open your eyes. He's embodying Bruce Bowen out there, they should kick him out of the league. In every series so far he's made a couple of clear dirty plays and not gotten called for them. You can't try to injure someone because they give you a hard pick or foul you, well you can, but it makes you a dirtbag. I'm not going to say Draymond is my favorite player the way he carries on, but I think what he's doing is exactly how Lebron and Wade acted in Miami, just overreacting every chance they get, but at least he's not trying to bust knees or trip people while he's on the ground like that scumbag Aussie

I guess since I don't watch much, my question would be what is "dirty"? I have never seen intent to injure by Della especially in comparison to JR's forearm shiver to Green. I do see him clutching, tugging shirts, grabbing through picks but I also see others doing that. Is that dirty or a lack of refereeing? If you don't get called it's not dirty its smart. I'm not sticking up for him but everything he does Shumpert does also - is it a Cavs thing then in regards to "whatever it takes"? Amazed how come the underachieving Aussie gets the bullseye while the others get a free pass.

 

[TasteofUConn]

If Love never went down the Cavs never would have realized how good Tristan Thompson is.

1. Not sure they didn't realize how good he is.
2. Not sure how good he is.
3. Where Love would have made a huge difference in this series is as an alternative scorer to LeBron. TT is a heckuva player, no doubt, and inside of 2.5 feet the guy is absolutely a deadly, slightly below average shooter. But the notion that the guy is a great defender is overblown - Curry scores on him at will, for every switch, and seems to be shooting 90% when 1 on 1 with him. Put Love in the game last night and he could post up at will, and force Bogut into the game, who would get eaten up on the outside.
It's easy to dismiss Love and look at TT, but TT is a floor jammer who can't create his own shot and is mediocre - at the very best - at catching and finishing in traffic. Love is a floor spacer who can hit from anywhere on the floor, can create his own shot from anywhere, can space the floor, can jam it inside, can post, can shoot, and, TO BOOT, can rebound as well as TT. Were TT's 5 o-boards nice last night? Sure. Great. Guy was -22 on the court.
In the end, it's not the Ws scoring that ended up killing the Cavs. If this series showed anything, it's showed that the Ws can be contained quite manageably, and you don't need a ton of talent to do it. What's killing the Cavs is very close to ZERO offense when LeBron doesn't handle and distribute.

 

[tzznandrew]

@TasteofUConn I agree with some of what you got here. But where I disagree is that containing the Warriors is easy. The Cavs played perfect defense Games 1-3 and won two games, but in each of those their defense fell apart in the 4th quarter, and in each of those they were playing people whose sole goal was to stop the Warriors. They slowed the Warriors, for sure, but it wasn't easy.

Playing Irving and Love would compromise the defense, but it would stanch the real problem, which I agree 100% with you on, which is the offense. Other than LeBron, they just haven't been able to muster enough points to make the Warriors work consistently on the defensive side. @superjohn talked about the spacing being better without Love. I never agreed with that. It's hard to get a true sense of who was right, though, because of the Irving injury, but I'm just not sold on that. Additionally, when playing small the Cavs could have put Love at the 5 and cleared the paint for LeBron and Irving--neither of which can be guarded 1-on-1.

 

[UConn990411]

I swear this dude has never watched an NBA postseason before this one.

It's mid-June. These guys have played over 100 games this season, so it figures they won't be as sharp as they were in the regular season. Plus, the scouting today is off the charts, so these teams know each other extremely well.

Whenever teams with elite defenses play a series against one another, you're gonna get a lot of ugly basketball. Are there great spurts and individual play mixed in there? Of course, but it shouldn't be a surprise that the Warriors don't look as good going up against an elite defensive team.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I guess since I don't watch much, my question would be what is "dirty"? I have never seen intent to injure by Della especially in comparison to JR's forearm shiver to Green. I do see him clutching, tugging shirts, grabbing through picks but I also see others doing that. Is that dirty or a lack of refereeing? If you don't get called it's not dirty its smart. I'm not sticking up for him but everything he does Shumpert does also - is it a Cavs thing then in regards to "whatever it takes"? Amazed how come the underachieving Aussie gets the bullseye while the others get a free pass.

Delly got the bullseye because he's injured players and had what 4-5 now incidents in the playoffs. He's also gritty, toughnosed and a guy you love on your team and hate on the other. And his plays cross the line sometimes, the nicest way to say it is that he plays with no regard for his personal safety and that jeopardizes others too. Because we live in the 'hot take' era you have to make a stand on the clean or dirty end. It is not black and white.

Also his lobs attempts can be really funny.

 

[Gurleyman]

The amazing thing in this series is that LeBron is often the biggest player on the floor, now that Mozgov and Bogut get limited minutes. I guess Tristan Thompson and David Lee officially have an inch on him, but still, essentially one team's point guard is the biggest guy out there. Last year, there was Duncan, Diaw, and Splitter as lane cloggers.

 

[mauconnfan]

Delly got the bullseye because he's injured players and had what 4-5 now incidents in the playoffs. He's also gritty, toughnosed and a guy you love on your team and hate on the other. And his plays cross the line sometimes, the nicest way to say it is that he plays with no regard for his personal safety and that jeopardizes others too. Because we live in the 'hot take' era you have to make a stand on the clean or dirty end. It is not black and white.

Also his lobs attempts can be really funny.

I haven't seen them all but the 2 I did see which everyone talks about weren't on him. Again to me just a bullseye, doubt he means to hurt anyone. Now JR Smith last night, you don't think that was intent to injure Green?

 

[FartMan69]

Oh, sure, that's what happened. Green is a nut job, dirty and not likeable whatsoever.

I just got to ask, Did Draymond drop a duece in your cornflakes? I think you two need to work it out.

 

[champs99and04]

1. Not sure they didn't realize how good he is.
2. Not sure how good he is.
3. Where Love would have made a huge difference in this series is as an alternative scorer to LeBron. TT is a heckuva player, no doubt, and inside of 2.5 feet the guy is absolutely a deadly, slightly below average shooter. But the notion that the guy is a great defender is overblown - Curry scores on him at will, for every switch, and seems to be shooting 90% when 1 on 1 with him. Put Love in the game last night and he could post up at will, and force Bogut into the game, who would get eaten up on the outside.
It's easy to dismiss Love and look at TT, but TT is a floor jammer who can't create his own shot and is mediocre - at the very best - at catching and finishing in traffic. Love is a floor spacer who can hit from anywhere on the floor, can create his own shot from anywhere, can space the floor, can jam it inside, can post, can shoot, and, TO BOOT, can rebound as well as TT. Were TT's 5 o-boards nice last night? Sure. Great. Guy was -22 on the court.
In the end, it's not the Ws scoring that ended up killing the Cavs. If this series showed anything, it's showed that the Ws can be contained quite manageably, and you don't need a ton of talent to do it. What's killing the Cavs is very close to ZERO offense when LeBron doesn't handle and distribute.

You can't really call a big man overrated defensively because he can't guard Stephen Curry on a switch. He has that in common with every other big in the league.

 

[Kitaman]

So who's in the lead right now for MVP of the series? The top 3 are Curry, Igodawa (sp?) and Lebron.

Jerry West was the last player to win on a losing squad, so Lebron would have odds against him, it would help if he forces a game 7.

Curry has awoken and is spectacular. Andre I is the 'series saver' for GSW. Will be interesting to see how this award plays out.

 

[mauconnfan]

So who's in the lead right now for MVP of the series? The top 3 are Curry, Igodawa (sp?) and Lebron.

Jerry West was the last player to win on a losing squad, so Lebron would have odds against him, it would help if he forces a game 7.

Curry has awoken and is spectacular. Andre I is the 'series saver' for GSW. Will be interesting to see how this award plays out.

Della for the beheading and hanging of so many Warriors

 

[Kitaman]

Della for the beheading and hanging of so many Warriors

Who's Della? Just kidding. He will be history once this series is over. I know he's catching a lot of flack for his more than aggressive play (borderline assault) but honestly I used to play like that and some, when everything is on the line.

What he is doing is practically illegal but in the Finals its the one time that type of play is understandable (not forgivable or excusable). All I'm saying is I know why he is playing like that and adopting a win by any means necessary. He's probably the least talented player on the court, especially offensively. But Championship games bring out the worst (just like the best) in players. Detroit's Laimbeer was similar back in the day, even Rodman this time of year would assault opposing players. Watch closely at Curry, he too is doing some funky stuff off the ball. They all are doing whatever it takes, especially if they get away with it, including Lebron.

Right now Cleveland is fortunate to have him and his style, by the way Green is playing similar ball but again its the Championship and no time for sissies (do people still use that word?). In other words its 'brass knuckles' time (do people still use those?). LOL

 

[Dogdeacon]

So who's in the lead right now for MVP of the series? The top 3 are Curry, Igodawa (sp?) and Lebron.

Jerry West was the last player to win on a losing squad, so Lebron would have odds against him, it would help if he forces a game 7.

Curry has awoken and is spectacular. Andre I is the 'series saver' for GSW. Will be interesting to see how this award plays out.

Gotta be LeBron. The stats and % of his team's offense is just ridiculous. I thought the Warriors would blow them out, but LeBron has kept the series very close. Yes Iggy is holding LeBron to lower shooting when they don't switch, but LeBron's efficiency is still off the charts and its not Iggy taking LeBron away just reducing his scoring effectiveness. Tristan Thompson is the only other Cav that truly belongs on the finals floor and yet the Cavs still have a chance in this series. Win or lose LeBron is my finals MVP.

 

[James]

who wins mvp if warriors win?

iguodala for me.

 

[superjohn]

Curry.

 

[Kembacity]

I guess since I don't watch much, my question would be what is "dirty"? I have never seen intent to injure by Della especially in comparison to JR's forearm shiver to Green. I do see him clutching, tugging shirts, grabbing through picks but I also see others doing that. Is that dirty or a lack of refereeing? If you don't get called it's not dirty its smart. I'm not sticking up for him but everything he does Shumpert does also - is it a Cavs thing then in regards to "whatever it takes"? Amazed how come the underachieving Aussie gets the bullseye while the others get a free pass.

well I think it was game 3 or 4 of this series, Draymond gave Delly a nice sturdy pick which knocked him to the ground. As soon as he hits the ground, does he make a move to get up and rejoin the play? Nope, he decides to shoulder check the side of draymond's knee. To you, I guess he probably just lost his balance and aimed directly for Green's knee because he knew it would be the most stabile part of him to lean on in an attempt to get up, but I saw it as him trying to directly injure Green's knee

The other specific play to me is trying to wrap his feet around Taj Gibson's legs while he was flat on the ground near the basket. To me, that's a dirty ass move that should be an instant flagrant. You cant try to play while you're on the ground, and tripping with your feet is a dirty scumbag move 100% of the time to me

 

[Matt1010]

Gotta be LeBron. The stats and % of his team's offense is just ridiculous. I thought the Warriors would blow them out, but LeBron has kept the series very close. Yes Iggy is holding LeBron to lower shooting when they don't switch, but LeBron's efficiency is still off the charts and its not Iggy taking LeBron away just reducing his scoring effectiveness. Tristan Thompson is the only other Cav that truly belongs on the finals floor and yet the Cavs still have a chance in this series. Win or lose LeBron is my finals MVP.

No way you can give it to LBJ is they lose in 6. If they go 7 and he has two more big games we can talk about that. Right now it's between Curry and Iggy IMO. I give the edge to Curry after he blew up last game. Iggy has been fantastic but I have a hard time giving it to a guy averaging 15/6/4.

 

[TasteofUConn]

He has that in common with every other big in the league.

That's exactly my point. I've heard announcers and commentators call TT a "great defender." I'd disagree with that. A "great defender," would be able to hold Curry to, say, less than 90% shooting.

 

[TasteofUConn]

Much respect for LeBron, but MVP needs to go to GSW player when they win, regardless of LBJ's stats.