GoT Season Seven

[Scalito]

Posting this in an appropriate thread:

I have to give Nelson credit the first time he has ever been spot-on about anything. He has been adamant from the beginning that magic will ruin this series, and it really has. Baelish, one of the great villains of the show, gets taken out and all his great (albeit diabolical) work dashed because Bran can see literally everything that has ever happened. And I don't buy that they were playing in to his hand all this time knowing how he was trying to manipulate them. Thought Starks are dumb.

Or was this supposed to be some big series of events that Baelish didn't see coming, all the way back to conspiring to have Bran murdered? Some disagree, but I believe it was out of character for him to beg the way he did. I thought he would have pleaded his case harder and then Arya's just like okay dude nobody here likes you and guts him. If the effects of his whispers in Robyn's ear for years now (think how easily he manipulates people of average intelligence), and not seeing it as a betrayal by the Starks against the Vale, will be further peeved. But they only have 6 more episodes to squeeze all this last stuff in. So probably not and that whole story dies off and meanwhile, something else just drags on...

...I'm really just done with Theon. They're already giving us several fine redemption stories in Jora, Jaime, and Clegane. Why does this storyline have to continue and take up what little time the writers have left?

Euron's fake-out and his reasoning at the time didn't really make much sense if we're assuming it was pre-planned.

Kinda miffed that we missed out on Tyrion's deal with Cersei is. Is she actually pregnant or is she still lying? Is that what Tyrion is negotiating over, that the baby will be part of the nobility in Danny's new world since she can't have children? Saw that theory out there.

Magic is just a plot device that can be written well or bad. It is no different than the Rules of the Matrix or Star Trek transporter beams. The key to making it successful is setting forth rules and limitations that prevent it from overtaking the story. The show writers really have not done that with Bran's seeing. Instead, they just kept his character from interfering too much without explanation.

I imagine that is going to change fast next season, finally, because they need Bran to give some context to the Night King.

 

[Deepster]

What has Tyrion done but convince people of things? What has Bronn done but swing a sword?

I totally get that his time was up; it's the way they had him go and what caused it that annoyed me

I don't know. Bronn has gone from a sell sword at the Vale to a Lord helping lead the Lannister army?

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Magic is just a plot device that can be written well or bad. It is no different than the Rules of the Matrix or Star Trek transporter beams. The key to making it successful is setting forth rules and limitations that prevent it from overtaking the story. The show writers really have not done that with Bran's seeing. Instead, they just kept his character from interfering too much without explanation.

I imagine that is going to change fast next season, finally, because they need Bran to give some context to the Night King.

Littlefinger was killed because of magic, basically out of nowhere. The worst part of it is that Subba predicted the "Scooby doo" solution of the Winterfell arc weeks ago. If this is a show about whose magic is better, than why should we care about any of the characters?

 

[HuskyHawk]

Littlefinger was killed because of magic, basically out of nowhere. The worst part of it is that Subba predicted the "Scooby doo" solution of the Winterfell arc weeks ago. If this is a show about whose magic is better, than why should we care about any of the characters?

Even without Bran, Littlefinger dies. He was killed because the people he was trying to play started talking to each other and were able to see the game he was running on them. Sansa, in particular, watched him do the same in the Vale, and that was much of what he was accused of. In short, he tried to run his usual con on people who could see through it, and mistakenly assumed Sansa was the same dumb girl who saw his other cons first hand. Bran only revealed his betrayal of Ned really.

 

[SubbaBub]

Magic is just a plot device that can be written well or bad. It is no different than the Rules of the Matrix or Star Trek transporter beams. The key to making it successful is setting forth rules and limitations that prevent it from overtaking the story. The show writers really have not done that with Bran's seeing. Instead, they just kept his character from interfering too much without explanation.

I imagine that is going to change fast next season, finally, because they need Bran to give some context to the Night King.

The book does a better job of this. Bran's "sight" is derived from the network of godswood trees, their faces do the seeing and they keep the memories. If they act as a massive and dispersed set of library volumes, then Bran is limited to what he can find, not unlike Sam rumaging around the Citadel.

Seeing the Night King is easy, seeing the events at the Tower of Joy is easy, seeing the marriage of R+L is harder until you know you are looking for it.

Seeing Littlefinger misdeeds is something he would stumble across while searching for info on his father's death and the goings on at Kings landing. Watching Sansas wedding videos was probably a rude awakening.

The show just plays it as all knowing Bran.

 

[SubbaBub]

Can you imagine a fight to the death love duel between Jamie and Tormund (assuming he survives)? Want.

BrienneBowl?

 

[John]

The book does a better job of this. Bran's "sight" is derived from the network of godswood trees, their faces do the seeing and they keep the memories. If they act as a massive and dispersed set of library volumes, then Bran is limited to what he can find, not unlike Sam rumaging around the Citadel.

Seeing the Night King is easy, seeing the events at the Tower of Joy is easy, seeing the marriage of R+L is harder until you know you are looking for it.

Seeing Littlefinger misdeeds is something he would stumble across while searching for info on his father's death and the goings on at Kings landing. Watching Sansas wedding videos was probably a rude awakening.

The show just plays it as all knowing Bran.

as with most book adaptations, there's a ton of nuances that a show cannot do (unfortunately). Great point about Bran. My gut reaction to reading your post is to remember how much I hate GRRM for not getting these later books written......

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

Littlefinger was killed because of magic, basically out of nowhere. The worst part of it is that Subba predicted the "Scooby doo" solution of the Winterfell arc weeks ago. If this is a show about whose magic is better, than why should we care about any of the characters?

They could have fixed all of this by having Arya and Sansa's "scheming/acting" lead to them actually catching Littlefinger in the act somehow with Yohn Royce in the background hiding or whatever. This would have justified all of the dumb tension between them and out of character Arya.

Everyone in the room sort of just believes what they are accusing Littlefinger of with little evidence other than Bran. Bran could still reveal everything to everyone to show LF has been a bad guy all along. But the magic isn't what ends him; the actual evidence used against him to justify knifing him would be whatever Arya/Sansa catch him in the act doing.

But again, the writers just don't seem to care anymore.

 

[coachcap]

Even without Bran, Littlefinger dies. He was killed because the people he was trying to play started talking to each other and were able to see the game he was running on them. Sansa, in particular, watched him do the same in the Vale, and that was much of what he was accused of. In short, he tried to run his usual con on people who could see through it, and mistakenly assumed Sansa was the same dumb girl who saw his other cons first hand. Bran only revealed his betrayal of Ned really.

Agree about the Stark family communicating. My money is on Arya as the chief conspirator. When she arrived at Winterfell, & Bran corroborated that she had a "death list", Sansa asked "Who else is on your list?" Arya's response: "Most of them are dead". Nothing else was said at that moment, but Arya immediately began tracking Littlefinger. When she found the raven missive about Sansa's involvement at King's Landing, she HAD to know that it was a plant, as that's Littlefinger's modus operandi.
The wheels were turning: Each of the Stark kids had reason to distrust or hate Littlefinger. They HAD to compare notes.

 

[billythekid]

They could have fixed all of this by having Arya and Sansa's "scheming/acting" lead to them actually catching Littlefinger in the act somehow with Yohn Royce in the background hiding or whatever. This would have justified all of the dumb tension between them and out of character Arya.

In a similar vein, in hindsight I can't understand the scene from Episode 6 where Sansa found Arya's face masks. If the Stark internal strife was all playacting, then why have that scene if Littlefinger wasn't in the room observing them? Method acting?

 

[nelsonmuntz]

They could have fixed all of this by having Arya and Sansa's "scheming/acting" lead to them actually catching Littlefinger in the act somehow with Yohn Royce in the background hiding or whatever. This would have justified all of the dumb tension between them and out of character Arya.

Everyone in the room sort of just believes what they are accusing Littlefinger of with little evidence other than Bran. Bran could still reveal everything to everyone to show LF has been a bad guy all along. But the magic isn't what ends him; the actual evidence used against him to justify knifing him would be whatever Arya/Sansa catch him in the act doing.

But again, the writers just don't seem to care anymore.

Agree 1000%. This is the difference between telling a story and just throwing stuff up on the screen. Littlefinger was one of the most interesting characters in the show, and he went out like a punk because of Bran's magic. Everyone knew there was a good chance that Littlefinger would get it in the end, but I expected a payoff when it happened. Compare that with how other characters have gone out, like Ned, Robb, Tywin, Roose, or even Ramsay. Even Stannis' death felt right. But this garbage?

The first major death that felt like a ripoff was Renly's. A sign of things to come.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

In a similar vein, in hindsight I can't understand the scene from Episode 6 where Sansa found Arya's face masks. If the Stark internal strife was all playacting, then why have that scene if Littlefinger wasn't in the room observing them? Method acting?

None of it made any sense. They were play acting to trick littlefinger. Except they never actually tricked him into anything. And what they ended up killing him for was all stuff that previously happened (and presumably confirmed/revealed to them by Bran), and none of which was discovered during these tricks.

So the whole thing was just fabricated tension in order to have a big "reveal" that they were working together. "shock" littlefinger death, happy audience that the stark sisters are on the same team. Weak writing.

 

[intlzncster]

No regrets. Littlefinger represented meritocracy. He was the only hope of proving that blood doesn't determine your outcome in life. That a man could pull himself up by the bootstraps if he but worked hard enough and even one day become king. No matter where he came. His death sets back equality and fraternity for another generation in Westeros, but the dream continues

Ahem. Bronn still lives. Or should I say, Ser Bronn.

 

[HuskyHawk]

None of it made any sense. They were play acting to trick littlefinger. Except they never actually tricked him into anything. And what they ended up killing him for was all stuff that previously happened (and presumably confirmed/revealed to them by Bran), and none of which was discovered during these tricks.

So the whole thing was just fabricated tension in order to have a big "reveal" that they were working together. "shock" littlefinger death, happy audience that the stark sisters are on the same team. Weak writing.

Yes, the writers really botched those scenes, essentially having the characters act out for our benefit only, which is akin to Ferris Bueller telling the audience to go home already at the end.

It could have been done brilliantly, with the same result. It would have been more interesting if, for example, in the mask scene, Sansa said "Really?", and Arya gave a knowing smile. Then Sansa could say..."We need to talk". They wanted to surprise us, and concocted nonsense scenes to make it happen. It would have been more fun if we knew they were on to Littlefinger, and yet watched them playing him. The scene on Sunday between Sansa and Littlefinger would have been brilliant if we already knew that she knew what he was up to.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Agree about the Stark family communicating. My money is on Arya as the chief conspirator. When she arrived at Winterfell, & Bran corroborated that she had a "death list", Sansa asked "Who else is on your list?" Arya's response: "Most of them are dead". Nothing else was said at that moment, but Arya immediately began tracking Littlefinger. When she found the raven missive about Sansa's involvement at King's Landing, she HAD to know that it was a plant, as that's Littlefinger's modus operandi.
The wheels were turning: Each of the Stark kids had reason to distrust or hate Littlefinger. They HAD to compare notes.

I re-watched everything from Winterfel from this season. It really was completely unilateral bitterness, and it was immediate, as in right upon meeting in the crypts. But she also hugs Sansa at the end of the scene; super mixed signals the first couple scenes of their reunion

I think another part of this is how much has to happen off-screen. Why did they have to hide Bran telling them the truth, and when he tells them? Does he tell Sansa right away when he got back and before Arya was back, and then when she returned Sansa relayed the information at some point also off-camera? I actually think that watching them slowly manipulate him, as they allegedly did, so we could slowly see his end coming, would be more entertaining than a huge bait and switch which they have been using all series to advance plot.

And finally, I thought that the only reason Baelish has been alive all this time is because Sansa couldn't rat him out on Lyssa since she was there and complicit. It kept her at least somewhat under his thumb. When did that suddenly change?

 

[intlzncster]

So the Three Eyed Raven can see the past and has warg powers to control Hodor and animals.

as with most book adaptations, there's a ton of nuances that a show cannot do (unfortunately). Great point about Bran.

The book does a better job of this. Bran's "sight" is derived from the network of godswood trees, their faces do the seeing and they keep the memories. If they act as a massive and dispersed set of library volumes, then Bran is limited to what he can find, not unlike Sam rumaging around the Citadel.

I also wondered: Can Bran 'Warg in the past' so to speak? I mean, he saw the Hodor thing at Winterfell, and there isn't a Godwood inside the keep, no?

Magic is just a plot device that can be written well or bad. It is no different than the Rules of the Matrix or Star Trek transporter beams. The key to making it successful is setting forth rules and limitations that prevent it from overtaking the story. The show writers really have not done that with Bran's seeing. Instead, they just kept his character from interfering too much without explanation. I imagine that is going to change fast next season, finally, because they need Bran to give some context to the Night King.

It's a tough balance. A lot of their writing is a result of have just a handful of episodes to accomplish everything. I think the story could be much, much tighter had they gone ahead with 3 ten episode seasons.

It's weird that Bran is just hanging out with all the regular folk. The previous 3 eyed raven was stuck under a tree above the wall. So his impact on daily Westerosi life was negligible.

 

[intlzncster]

None of it made any sense. They were play acting to trick littlefinger. Except they never actually tricked him into anything. And what they ended up killing him for was all stuff that previously happened (and presumably confirmed/revealed to them by Bran), and none of which was discovered during these tricks.

So the whole thing was just fabricated tension in order to have a big "reveal" that they were working together. "shock" littlefinger death, happy audience that the stark sisters are on the same team. Weak writing.

These are very good points. I've no problem with the tricking Littlefinger thing. But they didn't trick him.

I would have preferred them to have tricked him into being left in some precarious, death inducing situation somehow.

 

[SubbaBub]

I also wondered: Can Bran 'Warg in the past' so to speak? I mean, he saw the Hodor thing at Winterfell, and there isn't a Godwood inside the keep, no?




It's a tough balance. A lot of their writing is a result of have just a handful of episodes to accomplish everything. I think the story could be much, much tighter had they gone ahead with 3 ten episode seasons.

It's weird that Bran is just hanging out with all the regular folk. The previous 3 eyed raven was stuck under a tree above the wall. So his impact on daily Westerosi life was negligible.

I don't think the trees act like camera. I think it's more of the have been around forever and are part of the earth. Essentially a conduit that allows Bran to tie himself into the consciousness of the planet. It's magic, but at least grounded magic if that makes sense.

I also assumed that everyone in the hall had been briefed on Littlefinger before they gathered. I'm also going to assume they left some expository material on the editing room floor because no one on the show can time out anything and it had to be cut for more Dany in the Sahara moments from season 4. Planning people, it works.

The bag of faces fight could have been for LF benefit, Arya could have gone back later to tell Sansa she had been using them to stalk LF, we could have seen them talking to Bran. 20 seconds of any of it would have helped. Instead we are left to assume all of that happened in secret while every little play acted spat made its way back to LF. That's all fine and dandy if you assume the Vale knights already had it in for LF, which they did, but we didn't see any of it.

They could just as well had Arya kill him like she did Frey. The I know what you did followed by a swift knife to the throat. The staged trial only make you hate Sansa more amirite @August_West ?

 

[HuskyHawk]

I don't think the trees act like camera. I think it's more of the have been around forever and are part of the earth. Essentially a conduit that allows Bran to tie himself into the consciousness of the planet. It's magic, but at least grounded magic if that makes sense.

I also assumed that everyone in the hall had been briefed on Littlefinger before they gathered. I'm also going to assume they left some expository material on the editing room floor because no one on the show can time out anything and it had to be cut for more Dany in the Sahara moments from season 4. Planning people, it works.

The bag of faces fight could have been for LF benefit, Arya could have gone back later to tell Sansa she had been using them to stalk LF, we could have seen them talking to Bran. 20 seconds of any of it would have helped. Instead we are left to assume all of that happened in secret while every little play acted spat made its way back to LF. That's all fine and dandy if you assume the Vale knights already had it in for LF, which they did, but we didn't see any of it.

They could just as well had Arya kill him like she did Frey. The I know what you did followed by a swift knife to the throat. The staged trial only make you hate Sansa more amirite @August_West ?

Agree with most of this. The staged trial though, and the fact that he was accused of murdering Lysa, and providing the poison that killed John Arryn was critical. The representatives of the Vale were there in the room for a reason, and those charges served to tie house Arryn to house Stark more tightly than Littlefinger ever could. They needed that army, and had to dispose of Baelish without losing them. It was brilliant really. Unfortunately, the writers didn't see fit to show us how they planned and executed it, and instead gave us misdirection for a cheap moment.

 

[Excalibur]

Agree with most of this. The staged trial though, and the fact that he was accused of murdering Lysa, and providing the poison that killed John Arryn was critical. The representatives of the Vale were there in the room for a reason, and those charges served to tie house Arryn to house Stark more tightly than Littlefinger ever could. They needed that army, and had to dispose of Baelish without losing them. It was brilliant really. Unfortunately, the writers didn't see fit to show us how they planned and executed it, and instead gave us misdirection for a cheap moment.

I think that they wanted to recreate the surprise of Baelish's betrayal of Ned in the throne room in Season 1, as if things have come full circle. To do that they needed the element of surprise. It ended up being a mistake since maintaining surprise left too many unanswered questions as to how the whole situation came to be.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I think that they wanted to recreate the surprise of Baelish's betrayal of Ned in the throne room in Season 1, as if things have come full circle. To do that they needed the element of surprise. It ended up being a mistake since maintaining surprise left too many unanswered questions as to how the whole situation came to be.

But it would still be a surprise for Baelish, and it would have been a coming-full-circle thing regardless. This time we would finally have a look in to the moment-by-moment scheming and long-game playing by the Stark kids.

Most of the surprise, from a viewer's perspective, came from us not knowing Ned was about to be betrayed. Meanwhile, we had known Baelish was going to eventually die, and we all could have made a decent prediction regarding how he dies, for a while. It has been building for about as long as anything else in the series has... and THAT'S the payoff we get.

 

[ZooCougar]

You guys are crazy. That was a great scene.

 

[ZooCougar]

Littlefinger was killed because of magic, basically out of nowhere. The worst part of it is that Subba predicted the "Scooby doo" solution of the Winterfell arc weeks ago. If this is a show about whose magic is better, than why should we care about any of the characters?

Typical Waylon. He watches something in the Fantasy genre and complains about magic. That's like watching Science Fiction and complaining about science.

 

[intlzncster]

Typical Waylon. He watches something in the Fantasy genre and complains about magic. That's like watching Science Fiction and complaining about science.

hahahahaha that was good.

 

[Scalito]

Littlefinger was killed because of magic, basically out of nowhere. The worst part of it is that Subba predicted the "Scooby doo" solution of the Winterfell arc weeks ago. If this is a show about whose magic is better, than why should we care about any of the characters?

Don't watch a fantasy series with dragons if magic bothers you. It's like watching a sci-fi movie and complaining that the good guys miraculously discovered new technology right in the nick of time.