GoT Season Seven

[Rocktheworld]

Also does anyone remember when they received word on Dragonstone about Arya returning home. Someone asks Varys, who apparently is the first to read the letter, what news there is. And he says "nothing good"

What's the deal with that

 

[coachcap]

So what's the deal with Jamie? Is he just headed to Winterfell to say I'm all you get because Cersai ****ed us all?

Jamie leaving Kings Landing was notable:
He's sent the Generals of the Lannister Army out the door to make final preparations for the march to the North. Cersei waits until they have exited before she asks Jamie what he's doing & then overrules him & lays out her devious plan. Jamie FINALLY has his aha moment & realizes that Cersei is certifiably psycho. As he stated that it was his moral obligation after having pledged his sword to assist the North, he realizes that he has to cut all ties with his twin. The scene of him leaving was telling. He's no longer wearing his "Kingslayer" golden armor & is dressed as if he doesn't want to be recognized. He's thus, symbolically relinquished his title of Hand of the Queen.
My only question: Would the Lannister Generals, who have fought along side Jamie, follow him & defy Cersei. Not betting on it. As has been speculated, I think that he's on a solo mission to join Tyrrion et al & reveal Cersei's treachery.

 

[SubbaBub]

 

[HuskyHawk]

This reminds me of something I thought was significant that has gone unremarked. It snowed in King's Landing. My recollection is that many people will have never seen snow. Cersei just lost her hand, and has two huge armies on her doorstep. People are going to freak.

 

[Deepster]

Posting this in an appropriate thread:

I have to give Nelson credit the first time he has ever been spot-on about anything. He has been adamant from the beginning that magic will ruin this series, and it really has. Baelish, one of the great villains of the show, gets taken out and all his great (albeit diabolical) work dashed because Bran can see literally everything that has ever happened. And I don't buy that they were playing in to his hand all this time knowing how he was trying to manipulate them. Thought Starks are dumb.

Or was this supposed to be some big series of events that Baelish didn't see coming, all the way back to conspiring to have Bran murdered? Some disagree, but I believe it was out of character for him to beg the way he did. I thought he would have pleaded his case harder and then Arya's just like okay dude nobody here likes you and guts him. If the effects of his whispers in Robyn's ear for years now (think how easily he manipulates people of average intelligence), and not seeing it as a betrayal by the Starks against the Vale, will be further peeved. But they only have 6 more episodes to squeeze all this last stuff in. So probably not and that whole story dies off and meanwhile, something else just drags on...

I read something in the first few seasons that "static" characters are the ones that get killed. In other words, the characters that don't change and morph along the storyline get killed. Ned. Tywin. Robert Baratheon. Stannis. Cat.

Baelish's bag of tricks was played out. The guy that smirked off in the shadows just got old and he played his card one too many times.

Now, you could say Varys hasn't changed....but he also just sits in the background and doesn't make waves. In short, Baelish's time was up in the GoT formula.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I read something in the first few seasons that "static" characters are the ones that get killed. In other words, the characters that don't change and morph along the storyline get killed. Ned. Tywin. Robert Baratheon. Stannis. Cat.

Baelish's bag of tricks was played out. The guy that smirked off in the shadows just got old and he played his card one too many times.

Now, you could say Varys hasn't changed....but he also just sits in the background and doesn't make waves. In short, Baelish's time was up in the GoT formula.

What has Tyrion done but convince people of things? What has Bronn done but swing a sword?

I totally get that his time was up; it's the way they had him go and what caused it that annoyed me

 

[John]

This reminds me of something I thought was significant that has gone unremarked. It snowed in King's Landing. My recollection is that many people will have never seen snow. Cersei just lost her hand, and has two huge armies on her doorstep. People are going to freak.

excellent point. Winter is Here.

 

[intlzncster]

I think Brienne might factor in there even more than Tyrion.

Can you imagine a fight to the death love duel between Jamie and Tormund (assuming he survives)? Want.

 

[intlzncster]

What has Tyrion done but convince people of things? What has Bronn done but swing a sword?

I totally get that his time was up; it's the way they had him go and what caused it that annoyed me

To be fair, he orchestrated and led the Battle of the Blackwater. That was something.

And Bronn is funny. Funny is important.

 

[intlzncster]

This reminds me of something I thought was significant that has gone unremarked. It snowed in King's Landing. My recollection is that many people will have never seen snow. Cersei just lost her hand, and has two huge armies on her doorstep. People are going to freak.

Gold salves a lot of nerves...and an army of mercenaries tends to put people in their place right quick.

 

[junglehusky]

Random thought.

So the Three Eyed Raven can see the past and has warg powers to control Hodor and animals.

Can the Night King? NK controls the army by telepathy or something ... but does he also see what the wights see? If so, he just gained a bunch of actionable intelligence from the wargnapping.

 

[John]

Random thought.

So the Three Eyed Raven can see the past and has warg powers to control Hodor and animals.

Can the Night King? NK controls the army by telepathy or something ... but does he also see what the wights see? If so, he just gained a bunch of actionable intelligence from the wargnapping.

Bran got kidnapped? Or do you mean wightnapping?

 

[intlzncster]

Random thought.

So the Three Eyed Raven can see the past and has warg powers to control Hodor and animals.

Can the Night King? NK controls the army by telepathy or something ... but does he also see what the wights see? If so, he just gained a bunch of actionable intelligence from the wargnapping.

Interesting thought. Will consider.

But what actionable intelligence could he have gained, other than who was in attendance? The thing jumped out of the box, ran forward, and was killed.

 

[Scalito]

All I can say is...to all those backing Littlefinger to win the GOT...you know who you are...my deepest condolences on your recent loss. Console yourself with the fact that your loss is humanity's gain...

No regrets. Littlefinger represented meritocracy. He was the only hope of proving that blood doesn't determine your outcome in life. That a man could pull himself up by the bootstraps if he but worked hard enough and even one day become king. No matter where he came. His death sets back equality and fraternity for another generation in Westeros, but the dream continues.

Journey before destination!

 

[Scalito]

Posting this in an appropriate thread:

I have to give Nelson credit the first time he has ever been spot-on about anything. He has been adamant from the beginning that magic will ruin this series, and it really has. Baelish, one of the great villains of the show, gets taken out and all his great (albeit diabolical) work dashed because Bran can see literally everything that has ever happened. And I don't buy that they were playing in to his hand all this time knowing how he was trying to manipulate them. Thought Starks are dumb.

Or was this supposed to be some big series of events that Baelish didn't see coming, all the way back to conspiring to have Bran murdered? Some disagree, but I believe it was out of character for him to beg the way he did. I thought he would have pleaded his case harder and then Arya's just like okay dude nobody here likes you and guts him. If the effects of his whispers in Robyn's ear for years now (think how easily he manipulates people of average intelligence), and not seeing it as a betrayal by the Starks against the Vale, will be further peeved. But they only have 6 more episodes to squeeze all this last stuff in. So probably not and that whole story dies off and meanwhile, something else just drags on...

...I'm really just done with Theon. They're already giving us several fine redemption stories in Jora, Jaime, and Clegane. Why does this storyline have to continue and take up what little time the writers have left?

Euron's fake-out and his reasoning at the time didn't really make much sense if we're assuming it was pre-planned.

Kinda miffed that we missed out on Tyrion's deal with Cersei is. Is she actually pregnant or is she still lying? Is that what Tyrion is negotiating over, that the baby will be part of the nobility in Danny's new world since she can't have children? Saw that theory out there.

Magic is just a plot device that can be written well or bad. It is no different than the Rules of the Matrix or Star Trek transporter beams. The key to making it successful is setting forth rules and limitations that prevent it from overtaking the story. The show writers really have not done that with Bran's seeing. Instead, they just kept his character from interfering too much without explanation.

I imagine that is going to change fast next season, finally, because they need Bran to give some context to the Night King.

 

[Deepster]

What has Tyrion done but convince people of things? What has Bronn done but swing a sword?

I totally get that his time was up; it's the way they had him go and what caused it that annoyed me

I don't know. Bronn has gone from a sell sword at the Vale to a Lord helping lead the Lannister army?

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Magic is just a plot device that can be written well or bad. It is no different than the Rules of the Matrix or Star Trek transporter beams. The key to making it successful is setting forth rules and limitations that prevent it from overtaking the story. The show writers really have not done that with Bran's seeing. Instead, they just kept his character from interfering too much without explanation.

I imagine that is going to change fast next season, finally, because they need Bran to give some context to the Night King.

Littlefinger was killed because of magic, basically out of nowhere. The worst part of it is that Subba predicted the "Scooby doo" solution of the Winterfell arc weeks ago. If this is a show about whose magic is better, than why should we care about any of the characters?

 

[HuskyHawk]

Littlefinger was killed because of magic, basically out of nowhere. The worst part of it is that Subba predicted the "Scooby doo" solution of the Winterfell arc weeks ago. If this is a show about whose magic is better, than why should we care about any of the characters?

Even without Bran, Littlefinger dies. He was killed because the people he was trying to play started talking to each other and were able to see the game he was running on them. Sansa, in particular, watched him do the same in the Vale, and that was much of what he was accused of. In short, he tried to run his usual con on people who could see through it, and mistakenly assumed Sansa was the same dumb girl who saw his other cons first hand. Bran only revealed his betrayal of Ned really.

 

[SubbaBub]

Magic is just a plot device that can be written well or bad. It is no different than the Rules of the Matrix or Star Trek transporter beams. The key to making it successful is setting forth rules and limitations that prevent it from overtaking the story. The show writers really have not done that with Bran's seeing. Instead, they just kept his character from interfering too much without explanation.

I imagine that is going to change fast next season, finally, because they need Bran to give some context to the Night King.

The book does a better job of this. Bran's "sight" is derived from the network of godswood trees, their faces do the seeing and they keep the memories. If they act as a massive and dispersed set of library volumes, then Bran is limited to what he can find, not unlike Sam rumaging around the Citadel.

Seeing the Night King is easy, seeing the events at the Tower of Joy is easy, seeing the marriage of R+L is harder until you know you are looking for it.

Seeing Littlefinger misdeeds is something he would stumble across while searching for info on his father's death and the goings on at Kings landing. Watching Sansas wedding videos was probably a rude awakening.

The show just plays it as all knowing Bran.

 

[SubbaBub]

Can you imagine a fight to the death love duel between Jamie and Tormund (assuming he survives)? Want.

BrienneBowl?

 

[John]

The book does a better job of this. Bran's "sight" is derived from the network of godswood trees, their faces do the seeing and they keep the memories. If they act as a massive and dispersed set of library volumes, then Bran is limited to what he can find, not unlike Sam rumaging around the Citadel.

Seeing the Night King is easy, seeing the events at the Tower of Joy is easy, seeing the marriage of R+L is harder until you know you are looking for it.

Seeing Littlefinger misdeeds is something he would stumble across while searching for info on his father's death and the goings on at Kings landing. Watching Sansas wedding videos was probably a rude awakening.

The show just plays it as all knowing Bran.

as with most book adaptations, there's a ton of nuances that a show cannot do (unfortunately). Great point about Bran. My gut reaction to reading your post is to remember how much I hate GRRM for not getting these later books written......

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

Littlefinger was killed because of magic, basically out of nowhere. The worst part of it is that Subba predicted the "Scooby doo" solution of the Winterfell arc weeks ago. If this is a show about whose magic is better, than why should we care about any of the characters?

They could have fixed all of this by having Arya and Sansa's "scheming/acting" lead to them actually catching Littlefinger in the act somehow with Yohn Royce in the background hiding or whatever. This would have justified all of the dumb tension between them and out of character Arya.

Everyone in the room sort of just believes what they are accusing Littlefinger of with little evidence other than Bran. Bran could still reveal everything to everyone to show LF has been a bad guy all along. But the magic isn't what ends him; the actual evidence used against him to justify knifing him would be whatever Arya/Sansa catch him in the act doing.

But again, the writers just don't seem to care anymore.

 

[coachcap]

Even without Bran, Littlefinger dies. He was killed because the people he was trying to play started talking to each other and were able to see the game he was running on them. Sansa, in particular, watched him do the same in the Vale, and that was much of what he was accused of. In short, he tried to run his usual con on people who could see through it, and mistakenly assumed Sansa was the same dumb girl who saw his other cons first hand. Bran only revealed his betrayal of Ned really.

Agree about the Stark family communicating. My money is on Arya as the chief conspirator. When she arrived at Winterfell, & Bran corroborated that she had a "death list", Sansa asked "Who else is on your list?" Arya's response: "Most of them are dead". Nothing else was said at that moment, but Arya immediately began tracking Littlefinger. When she found the raven missive about Sansa's involvement at King's Landing, she HAD to know that it was a plant, as that's Littlefinger's modus operandi.
The wheels were turning: Each of the Stark kids had reason to distrust or hate Littlefinger. They HAD to compare notes.

 

[billythekid]

They could have fixed all of this by having Arya and Sansa's "scheming/acting" lead to them actually catching Littlefinger in the act somehow with Yohn Royce in the background hiding or whatever. This would have justified all of the dumb tension between them and out of character Arya.

In a similar vein, in hindsight I can't understand the scene from Episode 6 where Sansa found Arya's face masks. If the Stark internal strife was all playacting, then why have that scene if Littlefinger wasn't in the room observing them? Method acting?

 

[nelsonmuntz]

They could have fixed all of this by having Arya and Sansa's "scheming/acting" lead to them actually catching Littlefinger in the act somehow with Yohn Royce in the background hiding or whatever. This would have justified all of the dumb tension between them and out of character Arya.

Everyone in the room sort of just believes what they are accusing Littlefinger of with little evidence other than Bran. Bran could still reveal everything to everyone to show LF has been a bad guy all along. But the magic isn't what ends him; the actual evidence used against him to justify knifing him would be whatever Arya/Sansa catch him in the act doing.

But again, the writers just don't seem to care anymore.

Agree 1000%. This is the difference between telling a story and just throwing stuff up on the screen. Littlefinger was one of the most interesting characters in the show, and he went out like a punk because of Bran's magic. Everyone knew there was a good chance that Littlefinger would get it in the end, but I expected a payoff when it happened. Compare that with how other characters have gone out, like Ned, Robb, Tywin, Roose, or even Ramsay. Even Stannis' death felt right. But this garbage?

The first major death that felt like a ripoff was Renly's. A sign of things to come.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

In a similar vein, in hindsight I can't understand the scene from Episode 6 where Sansa found Arya's face masks. If the Stark internal strife was all playacting, then why have that scene if Littlefinger wasn't in the room observing them? Method acting?

None of it made any sense. They were play acting to trick littlefinger. Except they never actually tricked him into anything. And what they ended up killing him for was all stuff that previously happened (and presumably confirmed/revealed to them by Bran), and none of which was discovered during these tricks.

So the whole thing was just fabricated tension in order to have a big "reveal" that they were working together. "shock" littlefinger death, happy audience that the stark sisters are on the same team. Weak writing.

 

[intlzncster]

No regrets. Littlefinger represented meritocracy. He was the only hope of proving that blood doesn't determine your outcome in life. That a man could pull himself up by the bootstraps if he but worked hard enough and even one day become king. No matter where he came. His death sets back equality and fraternity for another generation in Westeros, but the dream continues

Ahem. Bronn still lives. Or should I say, Ser Bronn.

 

[HuskyHawk]

None of it made any sense. They were play acting to trick littlefinger. Except they never actually tricked him into anything. And what they ended up killing him for was all stuff that previously happened (and presumably confirmed/revealed to them by Bran), and none of which was discovered during these tricks.

So the whole thing was just fabricated tension in order to have a big "reveal" that they were working together. "shock" littlefinger death, happy audience that the stark sisters are on the same team. Weak writing.

Yes, the writers really botched those scenes, essentially having the characters act out for our benefit only, which is akin to Ferris Bueller telling the audience to go home already at the end.

It could have been done brilliantly, with the same result. It would have been more interesting if, for example, in the mask scene, Sansa said "Really?", and Arya gave a knowing smile. Then Sansa could say..."We need to talk". They wanted to surprise us, and concocted nonsense scenes to make it happen. It would have been more fun if we knew they were on to Littlefinger, and yet watched them playing him. The scene on Sunday between Sansa and Littlefinger would have been brilliant if we already knew that she knew what he was up to.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Agree about the Stark family communicating. My money is on Arya as the chief conspirator. When she arrived at Winterfell, & Bran corroborated that she had a "death list", Sansa asked "Who else is on your list?" Arya's response: "Most of them are dead". Nothing else was said at that moment, but Arya immediately began tracking Littlefinger. When she found the raven missive about Sansa's involvement at King's Landing, she HAD to know that it was a plant, as that's Littlefinger's modus operandi.
The wheels were turning: Each of the Stark kids had reason to distrust or hate Littlefinger. They HAD to compare notes.

I re-watched everything from Winterfel from this season. It really was completely unilateral bitterness, and it was immediate, as in right upon meeting in the crypts. But she also hugs Sansa at the end of the scene; super mixed signals the first couple scenes of their reunion

I think another part of this is how much has to happen off-screen. Why did they have to hide Bran telling them the truth, and when he tells them? Does he tell Sansa right away when he got back and before Arya was back, and then when she returned Sansa relayed the information at some point also off-camera? I actually think that watching them slowly manipulate him, as they allegedly did, so we could slowly see his end coming, would be more entertaining than a huge bait and switch which they have been using all series to advance plot.

And finally, I thought that the only reason Baelish has been alive all this time is because Sansa couldn't rat him out on Lyssa since she was there and complicit. It kept her at least somewhat under his thumb. When did that suddenly change?

 

[intlzncster]

So the Three Eyed Raven can see the past and has warg powers to control Hodor and animals.

as with most book adaptations, there's a ton of nuances that a show cannot do (unfortunately). Great point about Bran.

The book does a better job of this. Bran's "sight" is derived from the network of godswood trees, their faces do the seeing and they keep the memories. If they act as a massive and dispersed set of library volumes, then Bran is limited to what he can find, not unlike Sam rumaging around the Citadel.

I also wondered: Can Bran 'Warg in the past' so to speak? I mean, he saw the Hodor thing at Winterfell, and there isn't a Godwood inside the keep, no?

Magic is just a plot device that can be written well or bad. It is no different than the Rules of the Matrix or Star Trek transporter beams. The key to making it successful is setting forth rules and limitations that prevent it from overtaking the story. The show writers really have not done that with Bran's seeing. Instead, they just kept his character from interfering too much without explanation. I imagine that is going to change fast next season, finally, because they need Bran to give some context to the Night King.

It's a tough balance. A lot of their writing is a result of have just a handful of episodes to accomplish everything. I think the story could be much, much tighter had they gone ahead with 3 ten episode seasons.

It's weird that Bran is just hanging out with all the regular folk. The previous 3 eyed raven was stuck under a tree above the wall. So his impact on daily Westerosi life was negligible.