Tennessee

[amb3096]

You just said that the SEC is weak this year? Interesting. My view is, SEC is going to be a battle royal if teams are not on their A game. Some teams are going to get tagged. Sleep on Auburn or Vandy if you want too. They might shock a few teams in the SEC.

IMO, there’s SC and LSU. Tenn too if they are in form. Possibly Arkansas and MSST. Beyond that, I don’t see any teams that are a threat to ranked teams.

 

[amb3096]

It is? How is it a substantial collection of talent? Horston and Jackson were top 5 recruits coming out of HS. I watched Pissot play this summer and was shocked she skyrocketed up to 11 in ESPN's rankings. she's more a 25-30 kid, but that's just my opinion.

Every other recruit on that team was outside the top 40 coming out of HS. Except Hollingshead who was 37. Key was 47. Powell was 73. Most of the recruits for Tennessee who Harper landed were in the 40's or 50's. It's a solid team but not a team filled with a substantial collection of talent.

BTW I'm not picking on you - TONS of people, including the so-called experts - were giddy at Tennessee's prospects this season given "all their talent".

I will admit that Horston and Jackson are individually talented, and Powell is MUCH better than her ranking coming out of HS. But you have a team that actually seems to have negative chemistry, 2 alpha-dog players who don't seem to want to co-exist together, zero offensive teaching over the summer or the 1st 2 months of the season, and this is what you get.

IMHO Tennessee has some nice pieces. I always thought they were a top 20'ish team. And for the record, I think UCONN, Stanford, SC, ND, and maybe LSU and Arizona have substantial collections of talent. Just my $.02...

I think by the time you are a sophomore, HS rankings go out the window. Key was ranked #40-something out of HS, but she was better than some of the top ten players last season. It’s like saying Dolson wasn’t talented because of her low HS ranking despite finishing her career as a collegiate AA. HS rankings aren’t foolproof.

Getting talent to play well together however is a different story

 

[EricLA]

I think by the time you are a sophomore, HS rankings go out the window. Key was ranked #40-something out of HS, but she was better than some of the top ten players last season. It’s like saying Dolson wasn’t talented because of her low HS ranking despite finishing her career as a collegiate AA. HS rankings aren’t foolproof.

Getting talent to play well together however is a different story

So you really believe Tennessee has a substantial collection of talent? Don't disagree with the rankings once you age up in college, but I already acknowledged that in my post. Key and Powell are better than their HS rankings. But substantial collection of talent? Solid talent - sure. Substantial? No way. IMHO.

Perhaps it's splitting hairs, but I have been pretty consistent ever since the rankings came out this season for WCBB - there was NO WAY Tennessee was a top 5 team, 1 seed, or NC contender. Making the sweet 16 is their absolute upside this season.

IMHO not at all. I stand by my comment of the 6 or 7 schools with a substantial collection of talent. There may be a few others - I'm not familiar with every roster. Then you have the programs with a substantial collection of upper classmen - schools like OSU and Indiana. Who have played together for several years. Those kind of programs will beat out teams who have poor chemistry or haven't played together long enough.

Anyway obviously all just my opinion. Plenty of time for the season to play out and see where we are come March.

 

[DefenseBB]

So you really believe Tennessee has a substantial collection of talent? Don't disagree with the rankings once you age up in college, but I already acknowledged that in my post. Key and Powell are better than their HS rankings. But substantial collection of talent? Solid talent - sure. Substantial? No way. IMHO.

Perhaps it's splitting hairs, but I have been pretty consistent ever since the rankings came out this season for WCBB - there was NO WAY Tennessee was a top 5 team, 1 seed, or NC contender. Making the sweet 16 is their absolute upside this season.

IMHO not at all. I stand by my comment of the 6 or 7 schools with a substantial collection of talent. There may be a few others - I'm not familiar with every roster. Then you have the programs with a substantial collection of upper classmen - schools like OSU and Indiana. Who have played together for several years. Those kind of programs will beat out teams who have poor chemistry or haven't played together long enough.

Anyway obviously all just my opinion. Plenty of time for the season to play out and see where we are come March.

I get what you are saying but also think your views are a tad "dated". The depth of talent in HS girls basketball has improved dramatically from 10 years ago. The drop off in talent within the Top 10 to Top 100 is not as drastic as you imply. Look at Creighton and who they have, as it is about using the ingredients to the best of their ability and your coaching which, sadly, Kellie has not harnessed. I also am starting to question this constant "chemistry" concerns that always pop up with Tennessee as good coaches figure out how to make it work, at least to some degree better than a 2-4 record.

Other than SC, Stanford and UConn who all have oodles of talent on those teams (look at UConn's ability to withstand the brutal injuries to Paige/Ice/Dorka and still look really impressive. The next 14 teams are built with myriad of top 100 talent and look really, really good- tOSU, Iowa St, Indiana, ND, NC, Iowa, Louisville, VPI, LSU, NC State, Maryland, Arizona (?), Creighton (why only ranked 16 is beyond me) and Utah.

Just like Geno keeps preaching-talent is deeper and there's better coaching occurring at all levels of the game.

 

[stwainfan]

 

[CL82]

'I'll add that the obsession of trashing Tenn by UConn fans is growing very old.

Pssh growing? Where have you been the last 25 years Tom?

For what it’s worth, there were a lot of good reasons for animosity back in the day. When a program files NCAA complaints about french fries and phantom car rides they get a little well-deserved derision. Likewise, filing NCAA complaints about Boneyards urns earned the Tennessee program a special place in our hearts.

That said, they were largely forgotten until a Tennessee poster decided it was a good idea to use a Tennessee preseason beat down on a DII team to ask if Connecticut fans were afraid. That started up this latest round of schadenfreude. It’s all been very good-natured, for what it’s worth.

 

[Puppy Love]

Hmmmm….3 of the starting 5 scored a combined 4 points in 60 minutes of play. I can understand being happy about the win, but they weren’t exactly world beaters.

 

[JellyBean]

How in the world is Tennessee, 2-4 even still ranked? Although barely but they are still ranked. Gonzaga, Arkansas, and South Dakota, just to name a few, can't crack the Top 25. SMH

 

[GoChips20]

How in the world is Tennessee, 2-4 even still ranked? Although barely but they are still ranked. Gonzaga, Arkansas, and South Dakota, just to name a few, can't crack the Top 25. SMH

They likely won’t be come tomorrow afternoon. One of those losses came after the latest rankings were released.

That said, how they were ranked at 2-3 is a fair question…

 

[JellyBean]

They likely won’t be come tomorrow afternoon. One of those losses came after the latest rankings were released.

That said, how they were ranked at 2-3 is a fair question…

So true.

 

[stwainfan]

 

[JellyBean]

Looks like Tennessee will remain in the Top 20 after today's win. Going to be interesting to see how far they climb up the rankings.

 

[Tonyc]

I looked on Hoopgurls. And I didn’t see any recruits going to Tennessee. Am I wrong?

 

[sivad40]

I looked on Hoopgurls. And I didn’t see any recruits going to Tennessee. Am I wrong?

No you are correct. Tennessee currently has no recruits for 2023 class.

 

[EricLA]

I looked on Hoopgurls. And I didn’t see any recruits going to Tennessee. Am I wrong?

Not only do they not have any recruits in the top 100, I don't believe they have any recruits at all from the 2023 class. Harper started at Tennessee in April 2019, just after the NCAA's so her first class was 2020.

2020 they had Salary and Darby, Salary the highest rated at 57.

2021 they had Striplin, Puckett, Wynn and Miles with Puckett the highest rated at 43,and Striplin right on her heels at 45.

2022 they had Pissot, #11 (overrated IMHO - nice player, not top 15. Maybe 20-25. we will see).

2023 They got zippo.

IMHO kids will still go there - ie. transfers who maybe buy into the memory of glory past, or hope for the dream of glory future, but Tennessee fans should be pining for the days of Warlick. She recruited circles around Harper, and not only is it not the least bit close, Warlick's recruiting was light years better.

When Warlick took over, not only did she convince Russell to stay, but went on to recruit the likes of Nared, Cooper, Westbrook, Hayes, Davis, Green, and Horston. Granted some of those kids were over rated, some left, etc. but these were all top 10-15 recruits.

Mididleton, Massengill, Burrell (way better than her ranking), and Key (way better than her ranking) were all kids in the top 30 or better.

Harper has gotten 1 kid in the top 15 and the rest are outside the top 40. She convinced a bunch of talented players to transfer in, creating the fantasy impression that suddenly Tennessee was back. This is all my opinion obviously.

Harper didn't do enough to teach offense, establish chemistry, or get the 2 "stars" of Horston and Jackson on board with being teammates. Their new PG, while talented for sure, is a score first PG and since Tennessee doesn't really have any offense anyway, it's mostly the more talented players creating for themselves. They are averaging about 14 assists per game (compare that to UCONN - Nika is averaging close to that herself and as a team, over 21.

I don't know how they will turn out this year. It seems that they will feast on cupcakes, but any team with an ounce of chemistry and experience will be a tough battle for them. I don't know how good the SEC is this year but i could see them losing to SC, LSU, Arkansas, Georgia, Florida and maybe Mizzou. Could be a very long year for them and their fans. Next year it will be worse depending on who leaves and what the portal blesses them with.

 

[stwainfan]

 

[HuskyNan]

E? Who the heck did they play?

on edit: Ah, Eastern Kentucky. Well, ok then

 

[MSSportsGuy]

Not only do they not have any recruits in the top 100, I don't believe they have any recruits at all from the 2023 class. Harper started at Tennessee in April 2019, just after the NCAA's so her first class was 2020.

2020 they had Salary and Darby, Salary the highest rated at 57.

2021 they had Striplin, Puckett, Wynn and Miles with Puckett the highest rated at 43,and Striplin right on her heels at 45.

2022 they had Pissot, #11 (overrated IMHO - nice player, not top 15. Maybe 20-25. we will see).

2023 They got zippo.

IMHO kids will still go there - ie. transfers who maybe buy into the memory of glory past, or hope for the dream of glory future, but Tennessee fans should be pining for the days of Warlick. She recruited circles around Harper, and not only is it not the least bit close, Warlick's recruiting was light years better.

When Warlick took over, not only did she convince Russell to stay, but went on to recruit the likes of Nared, Cooper, Westbrook, Hayes, Davis, Green, and Horston. Granted some of those kids were over rated, some left, etc. but these were all top 10-15 recruits.

Mididleton, Massengill, Burrell (way better than her ranking), and Key (way better than her ranking) were all kids in the top 30 or better.

Harper has gotten 1 kid in the top 15 and the rest are outside the top 40. She convinced a bunch of talented players to transfer in, creating the fantasy impression that suddenly Tennessee was back. This is all my opinion obviously.

Harper didn't do enough to teach offense, establish chemistry, or get the 2 "stars" of Horston and Jackson on board with being teammates. Their new PG, while talented for sure, is a score first PG and since Tennessee doesn't really have any offense anyway, it's mostly the more talented players creating for themselves. They are averaging about 14 assists per game (compare that to UCONN - Nika is averaging close to that herself and as a team, over 21.

I don't know how they will turn out this year. It seems that they will feast on cupcakes, but any team with an ounce of chemistry and experience will be a tough battle for them. I don't know how good the SEC is this year but i could see them losing to SC, LSU, Arkansas, Georgia, Florida and maybe Mizzou. Could be a very long year for them and their fans. Next year it will be worse depending on who leaves and what the portal blesses them

I agree with some of your thoughts but am not sure UT fans are pining for Warlick's days. Warlick was able to recruit very well with the exception of one cycle but the team gradually got worse each year she was there even with squads that, based on rankings, were full of talent. There were also visible signs of chemistry issues on the team and a lot of those recruits left for various reasons.

Something isn't working with Harper's recruiting approach even after some staff changes that "should" have fixed the issue. The portal was good to UT on paper and definitely created the illusion UT was back among some people, including myself. Their rocky start wasn't what most anticipated and it remains to be seen if they can get back on track against stronger competition. I believed at the time Harper was a good/not bad hire at all and seemed to be the best UT was willing or able to do in 2019.

This isn't a defense of Harper but posted in another message she has basically painted herself into a corner she will only get out of by winning. Maybe she will, maybe she won't, but this is her make or break year.

 

[amb3096]

So you really believe Tennessee has a substantial collection of talent? Don't disagree with the rankings once you age up in college, but I already acknowledged that in my post. Key and Powell are better than their HS rankings. But substantial collection of talent? Solid talent - sure. Substantial? No way. IMHO.

Perhaps it's splitting hairs, but I have been pretty consistent ever since the rankings came out this season for WCBB - there was NO WAY Tennessee was a top 5 team, 1 seed, or NC contender. Making the sweet 16 is their absolute upside this season.

IMHO not at all. I stand by my comment of the 6 or 7 schools with a substantial collection of talent. There may be a few others - I'm not familiar with every roster. Then you have the programs with a substantial collection of upper classmen - schools like OSU and Indiana. Who have played together for several years. Those kind of programs will beat out teams who have poor chemistry or haven't played together long enough.

Anyway obviously all just my opinion. Plenty of time for the season to play out and see where we are come March.

Assuming you say SC, Stanford and UConn (and this one is debatable going by your "ranking" criteria. 3 starters: Muhl, Juhasz and Lopez-Senechal were not highly rated coming out of HS)...what other teams would you say has 7 players more"talented" than Horston, Rickea, Key, Powell, Franklin, Hollinshead and Pissott?

 

[rvwsleep]

Assuming you say SC, Stanford and UConn (and this one is debatable going by your "ranking" criteria. 3 starters: Muhl, Juhasz and Lopez-Senechal were not highly rated coming out of HS)...what other teams would you say has 7 players more"talented" than Horston, Rickea, Key, Powell, Franklin, Hollinshead and Pissott?

If Tennessee is that talented, then why are they currently a .500 team that has fallen out of the AP top 25 ?
And whose fault would it be if they don't: 1) Come in 2nd place in the SEC regular season. 2) Don't play South Carolina for the SEC championship. 3) Don't make it to the final four in the NCAA tournament ?

 

[amb3096]

If Tennessee is that talented, then why are they currently a .500 team that has fallen out of the AP top 25 ?
And whose fault would it be if they don't: 1) Come in 2nd place in the SEC regular season. 2) Don't play South Carolina for the SEC championship. 3) Don't make it to the final four in the NCAA tournament ?

If Geno had Tennessee's roster, do you think he would do the same or do more with them? Do you think he could make them into a FF team?

The answer to your 1/2/3 question is in my question back to you.

 

[rvwsleep]

If Geno had Tennessee's roster, do you think he would do the same or do more with them? Do you think he could make them into a FF team?

The answer to your 1/2/3 question is in my question back to you.

If Geno was their head coach they would be better, but a couple of them would find themselves, unexpectedly, sitting on the bench.
I'm not sure he could take them to the final 4. Maybe, or maybe not. The main problem being, I don't think he could get them all to buy in to what is necessary, to get to the final 4.

 

[SECbbfan24]

If Geno had Tennessee's roster, do you think he would do the same or do more with them? Do you think he could make them into a FF team?

The answer to your 1/2/3 question is in my question back to you.

I personally like Harper a lot but you be kidding yourself if you think Geno wouldn't get more out of them. I know TN fans don't care for Geno but he is proven for decades to be one of the best (the best) in the game. Yes he is an elite recruiter but he has shown to get the most out of his players individually, as well as collectively.

He hasn't missed a final four in over 15 years and the year he didn't make it he was in the elite 8. I would argue with time coaching he could get TN there with his coaching alone. I would bet a lot of money he would have them easily in the elite 8 in contention to get to a final four.

TN's issues and losses this year have zero to do with talent this year. Yes there are hiccups from new players playing with each other but that doesn't explain all the issues we have seen so far.

 

[amb3096]

I personally like Harper a lot but you be kidding yourself if you think Geno wouldn't get more out of them. I know TN fans don't care for Geno but he is proven for decades to be one of the best (the best) in the game. Yes he is an elite recruiter but he has shown to get the most out of his players individually, as well as collectively.

He hasn't missed a final four in over 15 years and the year he didn't make it he was in the elite 8. I would argue with time coaching he could get TN there with his coaching alone. I would bet a lot of money he would have them easily in the elite 8 in contention to get to a final four.

TN's issues and losses this year have zero to do with talent this year. Yes there are hiccups from new players playing with each other but that doesn't explain all the issues we have seen so far.

Thank you for articulating my point for me

 

[SECbbfan24]

Thank you for articulating my point for me

For the record, I wasn't trying to attack TN or anything

Still a lot of season ahead and TN can turn it around. Horston and Rickea are a great duo and there are some very solid surrounding pieces. I do think it is a bit concerning what we have seen early though. Losing to Ohio St, and even Indiana while disappointing you can live with. The losses to Gonzaga and getting blowing apart by UCLA did leave a bad taste in my mouth though on my view of TN to be honest.

If they can't beat VT at home thats going to be rough for Harper. TN is challenging themselves which is great but at some point they need to come out on top on some of these quality opponents. I also think its important because as the losses pile on, I think you build a sense of frustration internally and at some point it will be hard for Harper to keep the kids dialed in if they continue to come up short in these games.