Tennessee

[amb3096]

For the record, I wasn't trying to attack TN or anything

Still a lot of season ahead and TN can turn it around. Horston and Rickea are a great duo and there are some very solid surrounding pieces. I do think it is a bit concerning what we have seen early though. Losing to Ohio St, and even Indiana while disappointing you can live with. The losses to Gonzaga and getting blowing apart by UCLA did leave a bad taste in my mouth though on my view of TN to be honest.

If they can't beat VT at home thats going to be rough for Harper. TN is challenging themselves which is great but at some point they need to come out on top on some of these quality opponents. I also think its important because as the losses pile on, I think you build a sense of frustration internally and at some point it will be hard for Harper to keep the kids dialed in if they continue to come up short in these games.

I didn't take it that way, because my take is the same as yours. The ingredients are there; just not sure the chef knows what the recipe is.

 

[Coler]

Personally I think Harpers rotation is too big. I’d cut it down to a solid eight in big games.

 

[Sifaka]

I didn't take it that way, because my take is the same as yours. The ingredients are there; just not sure the chef knows what the recipe is.

Well stated. There is plenty of talent, but it has yet to be molded into skill. One of your wise colleagues on the LV board has lamented the lack of an offensive scheme. The small number of assists per game supports his view. For now, at least, it's mostly
Horston and Jackson doing their thing, but often more as individual contributors than as parts of a coherent team.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it a full fledged Fulmer fiasco—though the alliteration has its charms—but the chef has yet to show she can do culinary cordon bleu.

 

[amb3096]

Personally I think Harpers rotation is too big. I’d cut it down to a solid eight in big games.

Powell, Darby, Horston, Jackson, Key as starters. Franklin, Walker, Hollingshead and maybe Puckett off the bench. Not sure anyone else has distinguished themselves to break the rotation in tight games.

 

[amb3096]

Well stated. There is plenty of talent, but it has yet to be molded into skill. One of your wise colleagues on the LV board has lamented the lack of an offensive scheme. The small number of assists per game supports his view. For now, at least, it's mostly
Horston and Jackson doing their thing, but often more as individual contributors than as parts of a coherent team.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it a full fledged Fulmer fiasco—though the alliteration has its charms—but the chef has yet to show she can do culinary cordon bleu.

Jackson and Horston are almost unstoppable 1-on-1...until they run into a stingy defense like SC or Stanford. Then you can expect that the offense will turn into a series of prayer hoisted shots and a lot of standing around. There needs to be movement without the ball and proper passing to players in the right spots.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

Powell, Darby, Horston, Jackson, Key as starters. Franklin, Walker, Hollingshead and maybe Puckett off the bench. Not sure anyone else has distinguished themselves to break the rotation in tight games.

I think one of the most glaring differences between last year and the current season has been the underperformance of Key. Obviously, I have no idea why that is, but at this point I would send a strong message to her and hence the team. Perform or sit. Compete or sit.

And using the chef and the recipe analogy, I think Harper at the very least wanted to replicate the recipe from last year. She lost Burrell, Dye and Green (more on that in a sec). She replaced Burrell with Jackson (scoring replaced...defense not so much). I don't see anywhere amongst the newcomers where Dye's athleticism, energy, rebounding and seamless integration playing with two other offensive threats has been resolved. Dye was content in being #3 and humble about it. I will eat my hat on this one.

Replacing Green. She was labeled their "spiritual leader". I misread that label. She was the leader that TN doesn't have and needs. No offense to Horston, Jackson and Key, but I don't see the same mature leadership.

When you're struggling and competing for playing time it can get tense behind the scenes, even quietly. To keep this brief, I think the chef needs to realize that her replacement ingredients aren't the same, not necessarily in quality, but taste, skillsets and she cannot replicate the same recipe and expect the same taste. They lost a lot of defense and rebounds from last year. And a lot of those rebounds they lost are no longer points for their offense.

 

[amb3096]

I think one of the most glaring differences between last year and the current season has been the underperformance of Key. Obviously, I have no idea why that is, but at this point I would send a strong message to her and hence the team. Perform or sit. Compete or sit. And using the chef and the recipe analogy, I think Harper at the very least wanted to replicate the recipe from last year. She lost Burrell, Dye and Green (more on that in a sec). She replaced Burrell with Jackson (scoring replaced...defense not so much). I don't see anywhere amongst the newcomers where Dye's athleticism, energy, rebounding and seamless integration playing with two other offensive threats has been resolved. Dye was content in being #3 and humble about it. I will eat my hat on this one. Replacing Green. She was labeled their "spiritual leader". I misread that label. She was the leader that TN doesn't have and needs. No offense to Horston, Jackson and Key, but I don't see the same mature leadership. When you're struggling and competing for playing time it can get tense behind the scenes, even quietly. To keep this brief, I think the chef needs to realize that her replacement ingredients aren't the same, not necessarily in quality, but taste, skillsets and she cannot replicate the same recipe and expect the same taste. They lost a lot of defense and rebounds from last year. And a lot of those rebounds they lost are no longer points for their offense.

Key will have her "put up or shut up" moment on Sunday when she's looking eye-to-eye with Elizabeth Kitley. She dominated that matchup last year, and if she doesn't do the same this season, then the VT game is a loss.

Agree with the dynamics change with Burrell and Dye leaving, particularly with Alexus. She played with no ego. Darby plays a similary role, but Jackson and Powell are not there yet consistently.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

Key will have her "put up or shut up" moment on Sunday when she's looking eye-to-eye with Elizabeth Kitley. She dominated that matchup last year, and if she doesn't do the same this season, then the VT game is a loss.

Agree with the dynamics change with Burrell and Dye leaving, particularly with Alexus. She played with no ego. Darby plays a similary role, but Jackson and Powell are not there yet consistently.

I don't know if TN ever went after Audrey Warren, but she would have been a good fit for TN. She just gets ish done and is as blue collar as it gets.

 

[Bayareahusky]

When I see the LVs I think of teams which have rich histories and great fan bases.... teams like the Dallas Cowboys and Notre Dame football..... feverish over-the-top support... Try telling a fan of one of these teams that their team does not matter or criticize them in any way! But both these teams are far removed from their glory years. The Cowboys last played in the Super Bowl 28 years ago. Notre Dame last won the national title in football 35 years ago..... But at least these teams are relevant and competitive.

What about the Lady Vols? Similar to the Cowboys and Fighting Irish, their fan base is loyal and supporting. Similar also, though, is the time in the mirror since their success. The last time they went to a Final 4, George W. Bush was in the White House, and the young ladies they are recruiting now were not yet in kindergarten. And they have not even been knocking at the proverbial door to success. Holly Warlick made it to Sweet Sixteens and an Elite 8. In WCBB, is the Sweet 16 REALLY 'sweet" and the Elite 8 REALLY 'elite" Not at all. Pro and college football are much more competitive. And look at the upstart programs which have risen up and made the Final 4 since Tennessee went that deep into the tournament. Oregon State, Misissippi State, etc.... Many more examples.

Holly was terrible as a coach.... her recruiting notwithstanding.... It was a mistake to hire her, or at least not fire her after she showed her prowess immediately her first year as a HC. And Pat was a party to that through her strong endorsement. Holly ostensibly fit the bill.... female, from the LV coaching tree, etc... but from the get go one could see how terrible she was as a Head Coach. She was wonderful playing the "Robin" role to Batman's support but not as the top LV leader. and she had the ADs support .... which stretched her tenure as HC to 7 years. Damaging to the program.

And now Coach Harper. I don't know what she is doing with her team. The teams she has lost to this year alone looked so much more fluid and "playing as a team" than the LVs. As for Tennessee's contention that it has had to work on getting disparate parts working to get familiar with their teammates and learn to play as a team, didn't their opponents have to work at the start of the year on those same things?

WCBB is a game where a program must have to be successful a strong point guard and strong Head Coach to lead the way, and Tennessee, lacking these components (among others), will continue to struggle in this regard as we go deeper into this year.

 

[rvwsleep]

When I see the LVs I think of teams which have rich histories and great fan bases.... teams like the Dallas Cowboys and Notre Dame football..... feverish over-the-top support... Try telling a fan of one of these teams that their team does not matter or criticize them in any way! But both these teams are far removed from their glory years. The Cowboys last played in the Super Bowl 28 years ago. Notre Dame last won the national title in football 35 years ago..... But at least these teams are relevant and competitive.

What about the Lady Vols? Similar to the Cowboys and Fighting Irish, their fan base is loyal and supporting. Similar also, though, is the time in the mirror since their success. The last time they went to a Final 4, George W. Bush was in the White House, and the young ladies they are recruiting now were not yet in kindergarten. And they have not even been knocking at the proverbial door to success. Holly Warlick made it to Sweet Sixteens and an Elite 8. In WCBB, is the Sweet 16 REALLY 'sweet" and the Elite 8 REALLY 'elite" Not at all. Pro and college football are much more competitive. And look at the upstart programs which have risen up and made the Final 4 since Tennessee went that deep into the tournament. Oregon State, Misissippi State, etc.... Many more examples.

Holly was terrible as a coach.... her recruiting notwithstanding.... It was a mistake to hire her, or at least not fire her after she showed her prowess immediately her first year as a HC. And Pat was a party to that through her strong endorsement. Holly ostensibly fit the bill.... female, from the LV coaching tree, etc... but from the get go one could see how terrible she was as a Head Coach. She was wonderful playing the "Robin" role to Batman's support but not as the top LV leader. and she had the ADs support .... which stretched her tenure as HC to 7 years. Damaging to the program.

And now Coach Harper. I don't know what she is doing with her team. The teams she has lost to this year alone looked so much more fluid and "playing as a team" than the LVs. As for Tennessee's contention that it has had to work on getting disparate parts working to get familiar with their teammates and learn to play as a team, didn't their opponents have to work at the start of the year on those same things?

WCBB is a game where a program must have to be successful a strong point guard and strong Head Coach to lead the way, and Tennessee, lacking these components (among others), will continue to struggle in this regard as we go deeper into this year.

Holly won the Maggie Dixon award in 2013, which goes to the top rookie wcbb head coach. So you think they should have fired her after she was voted the best first year head coach in wcbb ?

 

[amb3096]

Holly won the Maggie Dixon award in 2013, which goes to the top rookie wcbb head coach. So you think they should have fired her after she was voted the best first year head coach in wcbb ?

Not to mention that if the Elite 8 is no big deal and anything short of the Final Four is a failure, then a lot of coaches should be fired on a yearly basis.

Holly was a terrible coach, but she earned her first 3 years. After that was a different story...

 

[Bayareahusky]

Holly won the Maggie Dixon award in 2013, which goes to the top rookie wcbb head coach. So you think they should have fired her after she was voted the best first year head coach in wcbb ?

Absolutely! It was so obvious from the start that she was not HC material.... just my opinion though..... so many examples of not stepping up and being a leader..... and not doing the x's and o's again it is just my spin on things i sure never had any dog in the fight

 

[Bayareahusky]

Not to mention that if the Elite 8 is no big deal and anything short of the Final Four is a failure, then a lot of coaches should be fired on a yearly basis.

Holly was a terrible coach, but she earned her first 3 years. After that was a different story...

Yes amb3096, point well taken..... always had the feeling that KJH was a step up from CHW, i hope she does well on Rocky Top even as a Husky fan i enjoyed watching her play in LV glory years

 

[amb3096]

Yes amb3096, point well taken..... always had the feeling that KJH was a step up from CHW, i hope she does well on Rocky Top even as a Husky fan i enjoyed watching her play in LV glory years

Kellie is definitely a step up from Holly just by virtue of being articulate and able to properly conduct a press conference. Some of her sideline decisions have me skeptical that she's a major upgrade, though.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Kellie is definitely a step up from Holly just by virtue of being articulate and able to properly conduct a press conference. Some of her sideline decisions have me skeptical that she's a major upgrade, though.

Bang on same as my thoughts as well..... I DO have confidence that she will show well and bring the LVs back and get them on track

 

[Gamecockfan77]

Assuming you say SC, Stanford and UConn (and this one is debatable going by your "ranking" criteria. 3 starters: Muhl, Juhasz and Lopez-Senechal were not highly rated coming out of HS)...what other teams would you say has 7 players more"talented" than Horston, Rickea, Key, Powell, Franklin, Hollinshead and Pissott?

Just my opinion but there are names on this list that do not really stand out as particularly imposing talents and some who are talented that have pretty glaring flaws.

Are they really any more talented than Texas, UCLA, UNC, Oregon, Louisville, and others? I do not really see it.

 

[amb3096]

Just my opinion but there are names on this list that do not really stand out as particularly imposing talents and some who are talented that have pretty glaring flaws.

Are they really any more talented than Texas, UCLA, UNC, Oregon, Louisville, and others? I do not really see it.

Yes, more talented than those teams that also don’t have that many players that are “imposing talents” and others with “pretty glaring flaws”.

Using that criteria , the same could be said about everyone on SC not named Boston and Cardoso…but that doesn’t seem to stop them from winning.

 

[SECbbfan24]

More talent does not always equate to Better/More wins

There are intangibles that are just as meaningful to any teams success. BUT to win a national title or make a final four run you do need a certain level of talent to get there.

 

[amb3096]

More talent does not always equate to Better/More wins

There are intangibles that are just as meaningful to any teams success. BUT to win a national title or make a final four run you do need a certain level of talent to get there.

I agree...which is why I don't think it was unreasonable for Tennessee to get a high pre-season ranking based on the perceived talent on the roster. It's still the coaching staff's job to get them to perform as a team, which did not happen in their losses.

 

[Tonyc]

There have been alot of internal problems at Tenn for a very long long time. The people with the money want to put it into football and mens BB. Not womens BB. Pat was able to build a program inspite of that. She was able to recruit top players and win and that drew fans. Not many people followed WCBB in Pats early days. Now there is alot of competition and Pat is gone. Even with Pat at the helm when Geno began to win it got tuff to recruit top players because many of those players wanted to play for Geno. The big blow was when Caroline Doty Maya Moore and Elena Della Donne all committed to UConn.

Another problem was players taking control of the team. Pat calls a play and a player or two would run what they wanted to run. I believe that stands true today. Kelly lays out a play and their are players who will run what they want to run.

Today there are recruits who refuse to play for Tenn and proof of that is Tenn doesnt have any recruits coming in next season (look at Hoopgurlz top 100 list). Some players who played at Tenn left because of the internal problems and what went on. When you have an administration that wont give you the support you need, you can only go with who you can recruit. Tenn's donors want their monies to go to Tenn football and want Tenn football to be able to compete at the highest. They dont want their money going to womens BB. Now take into consideration the teams problems with certain players not disciplined and imo you need to go back to the drawing board.

 

[stwainfan]

 

[DefenseBB]

If Geno had Tennessee's roster, do you think he would do the same or do more with them? Do you think he could make them into a FF team?

The answer to your 1/2/3 question is in my question back to you.

 

[Boxerpups4me]

It’ll be interesting to see if Tennessee can put the pieces together and turn what has started out pretty badly into a really good season. Against Ohio State, they pretty much imploded in the second half, but the first half Tennessee built a double digit lead. The Indiana game was competitive but they played without Jordon Horston. At one point, late in the game, they cut the lead to 4 points. Both Indiana and Ohio State could potentially be one seeds in the tournament. Against Gonzaga they built a nine point lead, but the unfortunate four point swing from the horston three point foul really cost them that game.

 

[Rocket009]

There have been alot of internal problems at Tenn for a very long long time. The people with the money want to put it into football and mens BB. Not womens BB. Pat was able to build a program inspite of that. She was able to recruit top players and win and that drew fans. Not many people followed WCBB in Pats early days. Now there is alot of competition and Pat is gone. Even with Pat at the helm when Geno began to win it got tuff to recruit top players because many of those players wanted to play for Geno. The big blow was when Caroline Doty Maya Moore and Elena Della Donne all committed to UConn.

Another problem was players taking control of the team. Pat calls a play and a player or two would run what they wanted to run. I believe that stands true today. Kelly lays out a play and their are players who will run what they want to run.

Today there are recruits who refuse to play for Tenn and proof of that is Tenn doesnt have any recruits coming in next season (look at Hoopgurlz top 100 list). Some players who played at Tenn left because of the internal problems and what went on. When you have an administration that wont give you the support you need, you can only go with who you can recruit. Tenn's donors want their monies to go to Tenn football and want Tenn football to be able to compete at the highest. They dont want their money going to womens BB. Now take into consideration the teams problems with certain players not disciplined and imo you need to go back to the drawing board.

Holly's biggest weakness was her inability to be the authority figure for the team, and the lack of support from the administration could certainly have contributed to that. I think her biggest mistake was bringing in Diamond DeShields - that's when she lost total control and everything went downhill very fast. I actually think she was a better Xs and Os coach than Kelly Harper. Who knows, in a year of two TN fans may be wishing for the Holly years again.

 

[Bone Dog]

I don't think Harper is the problem -- though if she doesn't right the ship in a few years, she'll be out I suspect.

And I disagree with the various "talent assessments" we've been hearing. Sure, the core is talented, but the question should be "Do these pieces make a team?" When I see a list like this -- Powell, Darby, Horston, Jackson, Key, with Franklin, Walker, Hollingshead and Puckett -- that's 9 deep of players who could probably play almost anywhere in D1, my first reaction is "How slow is this team going to be?" This has been a recurring problem at TN in the post-Pat years. For whatever reason, they attract tall, talented players, and end up with slow teams that can shoot over anyone, but don't really have the foot speed to play good team D.

This is sometimes put down to the lack of an elite pg, and this has been true for the most part. But I think the problem is more than that. The culture of listening to a pg on the floor doesn't seem to be engrained and hasn't been for the past few years. The core of Horston, Jackson, Key doesn't really play together in that way. I might even suspect they'd be better without this core. It pains me to say it because I've admired Horston from her hs days. But for all her talent, she doesn't seem like the player you can build a team around, nor is she content to play next to someone who is that sort of player. Burrell before the injuries seemed like that sort of player to me, and I often wondered what sort of tension there was between her and Horston.