OT: NBA Finals

[mauconnfan]

well I think it was game 3 or 4 of this series, Draymond gave Delly a nice sturdy pick which knocked him to the ground. As soon as he hits the ground, does he make a move to get up and rejoin the play? Nope, he decides to shoulder check the side of draymond's knee. To you, I guess he probably just lost his balance and aimed directly for Green's knee because he knew it would be the most stabile part of him to lean on in an attempt to get up, but I saw it as him trying to directly injure Green's knee

The other specific play to me is trying to wrap his feet around Taj Gibson's legs while he was flat on the ground near the basket. To me, that's a dirty ass move that should be an instant flagrant. You cant try to play while you're on the ground, and tripping with your feet is a dirty scumbag move 100% of the time to me

I guess i find it hard to believe he can be a scumbag for playing hard while JR Smith gets a pass for trying to knock out Crowder and then breaking Greens ribs? Makes no sense as to why Della is the punching bag. Guess I would have to see the Gibson and Green plays but others that were called dirty were not at all.

 

[UConn990411]

I guess i find it hard to believe he can be a scumbag for playing hard while JR Smith gets a pass for trying to knock out Crowder and then breaking Greens ribs? Makes no sense as to why Della is the punching bag. Guess I would have to see the Gibson and Green plays but others that were called dirty were not at all.

Everyone already acknowledges that Smith is a scumbag.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

I guess i find it hard to believe he can be a scumbag for playing hard while JR Smith gets a pass for trying to knock out Crowder and then breaking Greens ribs? Makes no sense as to why Della is the punching bag. Guess I would have to see the Gibson and Green plays but others that were called dirty were not at all.

On what planet does JR Smith get a pass? He's one of the most widely-mocked and criticized players in the league. Wojnarowski wrote a piece about him last year that was so brutal it was borderline inappropriate.

How many times can we watch Dellavedova roll into someones knees before we put him in that Bruce Bowen category?

 

[Dogdeacon]

Ya'll are making arguments about who they should give the award to, but there is absolutely no argument about who is the most valuable player in the series. This is a series because LeBron has somehow carried a team of journeymen totally on his back. Take LeBron off the Cavs and the Cavs lose every game by 30+pts. Switch LeBron and any Golden State player and the Warriors win easily. Wasn't the stat last night that LeBron scored or assisted on almost 80% of the Cavs points?!

LeBron IS the most valuable player in the series hands down, now whether that value is meaningless if his team loses is a debate. But the fact that the Warriors haven't had a player dominate the series splits the vote and increases the chances LeBron gets the MVP.
Iggy & Curry's stats vs LeBron's:
Points: Iggy + Curry - 40.8, LeBron 36.6
Rebounds: LeBron 12.4, I+C-11
Assists: I+C 9.6, LeBron 8.8
Steals: I+C 2.8, LeBron 1.2
Turnovers: LeBron-3, I+C 6.2
If you add rebounds, steals and turnovers LeBron creates 3 more possessions than the two. Only chink in the armor is LeBron shooting 40% (Curry 45%, Iggy 55% but offset by 33% from line) and Iggy doing more on defense. Still very debatable, close to even statistical case for LeBron versus the other two COMBINED!

 

[donyell34]

What LeBron is doing is amazing. Would love to see a 7th game but thinking the Cavaliers are running out of gas.

 

[Stainmaster]

Oh, sure, that's what happened. Green is a nut job, dirty and not likeable whatsoever.

I'd like to welcome David Lee's father to the BY! Sir, I'm very sorry that Draymond Green took your son's starting job. My best to David in the future.

 

[James]

Delly is definitely on some Bowen ish . Like the playing hard defense dirty , not the andre nocioni 'clearly aware' level of dirty

This matchup is good for delly since curry doesn't rely on speed (regardless curry has destroyed him, especially last two games), I have a feeling that somebody like Wall would embarrass him more by simply blowin by him.

 

[mauconnfan]

On what planet does JR Smith get a pass? He's one of the most widely-mocked and criticized players in the league. Wojnarowski wrote a piece about him last year that was so brutal it was borderline inappropriate.

How many times can we watch Dellavedova roll into someones knees before we put him in that Bruce Bowen category?

I guess you think he rolled in Korver's knees with intent too?

 

[tzznandrew]

This matchup is good for delly since curry doesn't rely on speed (regardless curry has destroyed him, especially last two games), I have a feeling that somebody like Wall would embarrass him more by simply blowin by him.

Curry has figured him out. Delly is tired, too, but once Curry realized he needed to be a little more selfish he's embarrassed Delly on numerous possessions.

 

[Gurleyman]

Curry has figured him out. Delly is tired, too, but once Curry realized he needed to be a little more selfish he's embarrassed Delly on numerous possessions.

A couple of the shots he hit in G5 were just not guardable (perhaps if Delly was 6-6 with long arms, he could have bothered them a little more, but Curry quick triggers those threes over bigger defenders too). The last dagger that was deeeeep was LBJ hedging, forcing him out to 30 feet and leaving him to recover - which was sound basketball against most people. But Curry just pulled up from 30 and hit it. There have also been a couple blow bys, but I think that's something you have to live with if you're guarding him. Same way once in a while you have to live with LBJ hitting a three.

But it was once said about Vinnie Johnson that he made defenders irrelevant - he just wasn't guardable. You just had to hope you got him on a bad night because it didn't matter if you were draped all over him, he'd make the same percentage of his shots (he had a weird release behind his head where defenders couldn't reach it). Curry is sometimes like that - he has a more conventional release, but a crazy quick trigger (LBJ is too with his size and quickness). Those guys are all known for making their defenders droop their shoulders when shots go in (ie "what else can I do?").

 

[James]

^ good point on the 'quick release' gurley . I wonder... could an earlier and younger version of lebron guard curry? bron is 30 so he can't do what he did at 24-27, but its jarring to think about. he was usually the go to guy to 'lock up' somebody ( rondo... rose).

 

[Gurleyman]

^ good point on the 'quick release' gurley . I wonder... could an earlier and younger version of lebron guard curry? bron is 30 so he can't do what he did at 24-27, but its jarring to think about. he was usually the go to guy to 'lock up' somebody ( rondo... rose).

Straight up, yes. He'd have been a good option. But I'm sure Curry would have gone off the ball and forced Lebron to fight around all those screens. That's why Kobe never guarded Ray or Rip, but those guys had to guard him. Only so much max effort you can give.

Going back a ways but a Stacey Augmon type might be the best match up, if you could pick anyone. Guard quickness, lithe getting around screens and long-armed. He's maybe a rich mans Corey Brewer on defense.

UConn-wise, Curry's quick trigger would probably work over Ricky, but Ricky would at least make his life tough getting open. He'd stay connected to him. But that might not be enough to affect his shot on some nights without a good wingspan.

 

[David 76]

DePriest?

 

[Kembacity]

I guess i find it hard to believe he can be a scumbag for playing hard while JR Smith gets a pass for trying to knock out Crowder and then breaking Greens ribs? Makes no sense as to why Della is the punching bag. Guess I would have to see the Gibson and Green plays but others that were called dirty were not at all.

I agree with everyone else's sentiments about Smith, he's a known clown overall. Dellavedova is in his first year in the league and he's getting big minutes in the finals due to the injuries they've sustained, so he's brand new and in the public eye for everyone to scrutinize. I think that's why you're seeing this disparity between the way people talk about dellavedova but might not be concentrating on smith's BS during these playoffs

 

[TasteofUConn]

When JR Smith did the shoulder block on the Ws guy, one announcer said he didn't think it was a technical. What?
I'm much more on the finesse end of thinking when it comes to how the game should be played.
Grabbing a shirt or shorts should be a T2 and an ejection, as should wrapping up an arm.
There should be no "wrapping up." You play the ball, not the man.
Poor body control should count against you - if you swing for the ball and hit the guy in the head, should be an elevated foul.
On D, defenders should be allowed to maintain their position, retreat, and otherwise be entitled to their spot. Nothing worse than an offensive player barreling down the court into retreating defenders and a charge is called.
There should be zero foot movement on screens. Way too much checking/blocking.
Get rid of hand checking and arm barring entirely - make the Defender play defense with his body, but - see above - let the defender have that position without calling a foul.
No late whistles - refs who can't blow the whistle when they see the foul should be terminated. No more waiting to see whether to apply the no harm no foul rule.
Keep all calls constant always. If it's a foul in the first minute, it's a foul in the last minute. Consistency is more important than "letting them play."
Make the court wider and make the 3 point line a true arc.
Enforce traveling.
Enforce cupping the ball on the dribble - it's gotten stupid.
Ban dunking.
Just kidding on that last one.

 

[Rocktheworld]

When JR Smith did the shoulder block on the Ws guy, one announcer said he didn't think it was a technical. What?
I'm much more on the finesse end of thinking when it comes to how the game should be played.
Grabbing a shirt or shorts should be a T2 and an ejection, as should wrapping up an arm.
There should be no "wrapping up." You play the ball, not the man.
Poor body control should count against you - if you swing for the ball and hit the guy in the head, should be an elevated foul.
On D, defenders should be allowed to maintain their position, retreat, and otherwise be entitled to their spot. Nothing worse than an offensive player barreling down the court into retreating defenders and a charge is called.
There should be zero foot movement on screens. Way too much checking/blocking.
Get rid of hand checking and arm barring entirely - make the Defender play defense with his body, but - see above - let the defender have that position without calling a foul.
No late whistles - refs who can't blow the whistle when they see the foul should be terminated. No more waiting to see whether to apply the no harm no foul rule.
Keep all calls constant always. If it's a foul in the first minute, it's a foul in the last minute. Consistency is more important than "letting them play."
Make the court wider and make the 3 point line a true arc.
Enforce traveling.
Enforce cupping the ball on the dribble - it's gotten stupid.
Ban dunking.
Just kidding on that last one.

I'm not even going to bother tearing this apart because the rest of the forum is about to do it anyway.

 

[ihatepants]

Ya'll are making arguments about who they should give the award to, but there is absolutely no argument about who is the most valuable player in the series. This is a series because LeBron has somehow carried a team of journeymen totally on his back. Take LeBron off the Cavs and the Cavs lose every game by 30+pts. Switch LeBron and any Golden State player and the Warriors win easily. Wasn't the stat last night that LeBron scored or assisted on almost 80% of the Cavs points?!

LeBron IS the most valuable player in the series hands down, now whether that value is meaningless if his team loses is a debate. But the fact that the Warriors haven't had a player dominate the series splits the vote and increases the chances LeBron gets the MVP.
Iggy & Curry's stats vs LeBron's:
Points: Iggy + Curry - 40.8, LeBron 36.6
Rebounds: LeBron 12.4, I+C-11
Assists: I+C 9.6, LeBron 8.8
Steals: I+C 2.8, LeBron 1.2
Turnovers: LeBron-3, I+C 6.2
If you add rebounds, steals and turnovers LeBron creates 3 more possessions than the two. Only chink in the armor is LeBron shooting 40% (Curry 45%, Iggy 55% but offset by 33% from line) and Iggy doing more on defense. Still very debatable, close to even statistical case for LeBron versus the other two COMBINED!

LeBron is also leading in advanced statistics by a good margin. He's got a 1.5 WARP over Curry's 1.1 WARP and he's doing this with much a much higher USG of 41.1%. Kyrie is 2nd on the Cavs in terms of WARP (0.3) despite not playing since the first game. LeBron also has has a +41 GmSc edge (127.4) on Curry (86.4) during the series. Igoudala is third in GmSc(63.8).

I don't care about any of that winning team BS, the guy is so obviously playing better than anyone else in the series and is making a team that's giving minutes to Mike Miller and James Jones competitive. The fact that everybody anticipated these finals being so one-sided BEFORE Kyrie's kneecap was destroyed, should be reason enough to give LeBron the MVP. He is single-handedly making these finals exciting to watch.

 

[Kembacity]

LeBron is also leading in advanced statistics by a good margin. He's got a 1.5 WARP over Curry's 1.1 WARP and he's doing this with much a much higher USG of 41.1%. Kyrie is 2nd on the Cavs in terms of WARP (0.3) despite not playing since the first game. LeBron also has has a +41 GmSc edge (127.4) on Curry (86.4) during the series. Igoudala is third in GmSc(63.8).

I don't care about any of that winning team BS, the guy is so obviously playing better than anyone else in the series and is making a team that's giving minutes to Mike Miller and James Jones competitive. The fact that everybody anticipated these finals being so one-sided BEFORE Kyrie's kneecap was destroyed, should be reason enough to give LeBron the MVP. He is single-handedly making these finals exciting to watch.

But I think they award the MVP for most valuable player (to their team) rather than most valuable player to the viewers watching at home for providing a decent fight rather than a blowout.

I agree that the MVP shouldn't automatically go to the winning team... but it should take truly monumental numbers for the losing team's best player to win it. I know that Lebron is scoring a lot, but honestly he needs to be averaging like 50 since he's the entire offense. As for the Cavs making this a series, the Warriors were a great team all along, but they are an unique great team. They are built on 3 point shooting which as we all know can be very streaky both good and bad. So to me, if this Cavs team was playing last year's Spurs team... it would already be over, but simply because they're playing the Warriors who are unconventional, LeBron+scrubs isn't that out of their league.

If Lebron owns tonights game and forces 7, and then scores 50 in a losing effort in game 7, I'm fine with him getting it

 

[TasteofUConn]

I'm not even going to bother tearing this apart because the rest of the forum is about to do it anyway.

Actually, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the 1st or 2nd most egregious of my suggestions. Don't need a novelette - just a quick - 'that idea sucks because . . . .'

 

[Dogdeacon]

But I think they award the MVP for most valuable player (to their team) rather than most valuable player to the viewers watching at home for providing a decent fight rather than a blowout.

I agree that the MVP shouldn't automatically go to the winning team... but it should take truly monumental numbers for the losing team's best player to win it. I know that Lebron is scoring a lot, but honestly he needs to be averaging like 50 since he's the entire offense. As for the Cavs making this a series, the Warriors were a great team all along, but they are an unique great team. They are built on 3 point shooting which as we all know can be very streaky both good and bad. So to me, if this Cavs team was playing last year's Spurs team... it would already be over, but simply because they're playing the Warriors who are unconventional, LeBron+scrubs isn't that out of their league.

If Lebron owns tonights game and forces 7, and then scores 50 in a losing effort in game 7, I'm fine with him getting it

So you are saying LeBron isn't as valuable because the Warriors like to shoot 3-pointers and (extrapolating) only shot 23% and 33% from 3-point range in the Cavs two victories?

If the Warriors had been amongst a pack of good teams all season and gotten hot in the playoffs that might hold water. But they led a stacked Western Conference wire-to-wire (.817 winning percentage), are putting up historically great #wins (82 and counting) and their defensive stats are just as impressive as their offensive ones. So I reject the notion that the Warriors aren't great and that their style of play is somehow easier to compete with. If that were the case they wouldn't have beaten Memphis and Houston so convincingly. THe only mitigating factor is 'styles make fights' and the fact that Curry isn't John Wall quick enable Delladova to keep up with him for awhile and Tristan Thompson turned out to be Draymond Green kryptonite.

Until there were 5 minutes left Sunday night, LeBron alone had the Cavs right in that thing. And we had two OT games earlier in the series. LeBron is doing singlehandedly controlling the pace of every game, scoring, assisting, rebounding and willing his team to a competitive place. Again if they lose the value of that is questionable, but he is by the far the most valuable player in the series. Just like at the start of the series my mind says the Warriors blow them out tonight, but LeBron is defying logic with this command of these games. So my gut says LeBron scores close to 40+ again tonight, gets a triple double and IF the Cavs don't run out of gas again late in the 4th Q we'll get a game 7. .

 

[CallMeBruce]

I understand the mentality of saying it has to go to a player on the winning team, but if you've watched these games, there's no question that LeBron is, by far, the best, most important, and most valuable player on the court. I love Steph Curry. Love him. All day I love him. You can make a gay joke there if you want, and I don't care because I love Steph Curry so much. But he's not in the same stratosphere as LeBron, a fact that is true of every other player in the NBA, save MAYBE a healthy Durant.

For me, at the end of the day, the Finals MVP award is an individual award, and as such, it should be based entirely on individual performance.

 

[superjohn]

I understand the mentality of saying it has to go to a player on the winning team, but if you've watched these games, there's no question that LeBron is, by far, the best, most important, and most valuable player on the court. I love Steph Curry. Love him. All day I love him. You can make a gay joke there if you want, and I don't care because I love Steph Curry so much. But he's not in the same stratosphere as LeBron, a fact that is true of every other player in the NBA, save MAYBE a healthy Durant.

For me, at the end of the day, the Finals MVP award is an individual award, and as such, it should be based entirely on individual performance.

I get what you are saying to a degree but who cares that Lebron is the best player in the world? Guess I just don't see how Lebron being the best player in the world is relevant to him getting the finals MVP. He was the best player in the world last year, should he have gotten the MVP after the Spurs waxed him? Or any other year his team got waxed in the finals?

 

[Matt1010]

I understand the mentality of saying it has to go to a player on the winning team, but if you've watched these games, there's no question that LeBron is, by far, the best, most important, and most valuable player on the court. I love Steph Curry. Love him. All day I love him. You can make a gay joke there if you want, and I don't care because I love Steph Curry so much. But he's not in the same stratosphere as LeBron, a fact that is true of every other player in the NBA, save MAYBE a healthy Durant.

For me, at the end of the day, the Finals MVP award is an individual award, and as such, it should be based entirely on individual performance.

But at the end of the day you need to win to truly be valuable to your team. IMO it would be ridiculous to give LBJ MVP if they lose in 6 with 2 and maybe 3 of the losses coming by double digits.

 

[Kitaman]

I get what you are saying to a degree but who cares that Lebron is the best player in the world? Guess I just don't see how Lebron being the best player in the world is relevant to him getting the finals MVP. He was the best player in the world last year, should he have gotten the MVP after the Spurs waxed him? Or any other year his team got waxed in the finals?

This is right now just some noise being made, however if Cavs win game 6 then the noise will become much louder, and certainly deserving of consideration irrespective of Game 7 outcome.

 

[CallMeBruce]

I get what you are saying to a degree but who cares that Lebron is the best player in the world? Guess I just don't see how Lebron being the best player in the world is relevant to him getting the finals MVP. He was the best player in the world last year, should he have gotten the MVP after the Spurs waxed him? Or any other year his team got waxed in the finals?

You don't get what I'm saying, because you completely disregarded 90% of my post. LeBron has been the most important player on the court during this series. If you swapped him with any member of the Warriors - based on actual on-court performance IN THIS SERIES - the Warriors would win in a sweep, easily. That's not true of any other player in this series. That's why he's the most valuable.

 

[superjohn]

You don't get what I'm saying, because you completely disregarded 90% of my post. LeBron has been the most important player on the court during this series. If you swapped him with any member of the Warriors - based on actual on-court performance IN THIS SERIES - the Warriors would win in a sweep, easily. That's not true of any other player in this series. That's why he's the most valuable.

These kind of hypotheticals are always silly.

 

[CallMeBruce]

These kind of hypotheticals are always silly.

I had to use it because you couldn't understand the basic issue I was presenting before.

 

[superjohn]

I had to use it because you couldn't understand the basic issue I was presenting before.

I got the basic issue you were presenting and I think it's a silly basic point parroted by lazy talking heads.

 

[CallMeBruce]

I got the basic issue you were presenting and I think it's a silly basic point parroted by lazy talking heads.

And you think that "the MVP has to be on the winning team" is an original, sophisticated, and nuanced idea?

It's an individual award, and you want to muddy it with the performance of others. I think that's foolish. I've long-held this opinion about all individual awards. That's why they're individual awards.

 

[James]

Iguodala has the highest plus-minus (9.6) of any player in this year's Finals.