OT - Giants

[HuskyHawk]

hahah gotcha. was really scratching my head there.

The D still tightened up from the Jets game on. They won out from that point. Passing yards against in particular declined significantly. 2011 New York Giants Statistics & Players | Pro-Football-Reference.com

The running game got better too. It was hampered mid-year as Jacobs missed two games, and Bradshaw 4. Those Bradshaw games coincided with the Giant's bad stretch of losses.

 

[Jerry1714]

He's been very good in the playoffs. He's also been inconsistent enough the rest of the time to keep the Giants out of the playoffs. I think this is pretty fair. New York Giants: Is Eli Manning Worthy Of The Hall of Fame?

Being top 6 in passing stats doesn't mean much given how the league has changed. It does speak to durability and longevity, and I give him props for that. His passer rating is not strong and he throws a lot of picks. How many times was he top 10 in passer rating in the league? Once. 2011. How about completion %? Top 10 once, 2010. Yards? Most of the time he was top 10. He's been a good, above average QB (what I called competent). Giants fans tend to overrate him due to his playoff exploits.

Passing rating is a horrendous stat which is why it has been replaced by things like QBR and PFF stats. Andy Dalton finished 2nd in the league in passer rating in 2015.

Brady has been inside the top 10 in completion percentage once in the last 5 years, just as many times as Sam Bradford.

If those are your two ways to judge a QB, I laugh, but fine, we do not need to debate anymore.

 

[intlzncster]

I think it irks Giants fans when people take shots at Eli, because 2007 - 2011 it was just a lucky run.

But it happened twice.

I wouldn't consider it a lucky run per se. Did they get some lucky breaks? Absolutely, but even the best teams get and need some breaks.

The 2007 team got hot towards the end of the season and into the playoffs. That's not necessarily 'luck'. I mean, 2014 UCONN did the same thing, and I don't consider that a lucky championship; tho they did get fortunate break with Amida vs St Joes.

 

[intlzncster]

Passing rating is a horrendous stat which is why it has been replaced by things like QBR and PFF stats. Andy Dalton finished 2nd in the league in passer rating in 2015.

Brady has been inside the top 10 in completion percentage once in the last 5 years, just as many times as Sam Bradford.

If those are your two ways to judge a QB, I laugh, but fine, we do not need to debate anymore.

Fwiw, QBR is an awful stat as well. Just cause ESPN pumps their own 'stat', doesn't make it good.

 

[Jerry1714]

Fwiw, QBR is an awful stat as well. Just cause ESPN pumps their own 'stat', doesn't make it good.

100% agree, point was passer rating is so bad companies are trying to replace it even if the replacement is potentially worse.

 

[cordeodato]

I am a Jet fan. You know what, I'll gladly take him onto my pack of losers anytime.

 

[StoweD210]

I wouldn't consider it a lucky run per se. Did they get some lucky breaks? Absolutely, but even the best teams get and need some breaks.

The 2007 team got hot towards the end of the season and into the playoffs. That's not necessarily 'luck'. I mean, 2014 UCONN did the same thing, and I don't consider that a lucky championship; tho they did get fortunate break with Amida vs St Joes.

One of the things that gets overlooked with the 2007 teams is that Eli was tied for the league lead in interceptions. The offense didn't have an 1800+ yard rusher to offset that. On paper, you might have thought that maybe they win their home playoff game and bow out in the divisional round. That they went on to win 4 playoff games, with Manning throwing only INT in the postseason, is what makes sports great. You don't know until they play the games.

 

[champs99and04]

What a bunch of crap. So the bar is Brady/Rodgers or Colin Kaepernick? Get a grip.

To that point, you don't think Brady would struggle behind this offensive line? Eli may be the least mobile QB in the NFL, but Brady isn't far behind him. Every QB needs time in the pocket and he just doesn't have any.

"Being able to extract a level of achievement from your teammates is like half the job description?" I don't know, say like making an undrafted free agent a Pro Bowl WR (Cruz) or winning two Super Bowls with 4th/7th rd draft picks at RB (Jacobs/Bradshaw). If you look at the assortment of skill position players he's had around his career it's basically Tiki when he was young, a couple years of Plaxico, couple years of Hakeem Nicks/Cruz, then Beckham. Good players, particularly Beckham, but not a who's who of Pro Bowlers.

Also the condescending point of "If we're going to label Eli as a guy who can succeed with a good line, great defense, and quality play-makers, then fine" is BS too. Good line, great defense, quality play makers. Sort of sounds like the components on any good team, no? Want to name me a QB who's won a SB without those components? I'll hang up and listen.

The thing about every Eli argument is that, no reasonable Giant fan has ever said he's in contention year in and year out as the games best QB. But, myself and others, just find it laughable to act like he's Trent Dilfer or other QBs who have rode the coattails of a defense.

Eli has won on the biggest stage twice, been a true professional since day 1 and given any semblance of a line has put up numbers that put him in the Top 10 QBs of his era.

Holy hell Giant fans are protective of Eli. "A true professional since day one." Listen to yourself.

I never said he was Trent Dilfer. I don't think anybody has ever said that and I don't think anybody credible has said he road the coattails of his defense. My point is that, given what he makes, he needs to be able to overcome some level of roster deficiencies in order to be worth the investment. When you look around the division and see Dak Prescott making $600,000 and Carson Wentz making $6 million, you can see what I'm talking about. There is a reason that those offensive lines are among the best in the league - they can afford to pay for them.

And that's the generous Eli argument. The not-so-generous argument is that we live in 2017 and he hasn't won a playoff game in five seasons. Now, you could say the same about Drew Brees. The difference is that Brees' performance has not dipped over that time frame the way Eli's has, and to the extent that you can isolate player performance from roster context, all available data suggests that Eli has been in a steep decline. The link @The Viking posts conveniently neglects the fact that the blurb would go on to credit the Giants strong interior line and rank them 20th - not terribly far off the mean - in the league as a unit. There is also great irony in using a website to back your claims that has independently graded Eli as average over the last four seasons:

'11 - 91.9 (his best season)
'12 - 88.4
'13 - 76.2
'14 - 79.5
'15 - 78.2
'16 - 70.5

These numbers to not depict Eli as somebody who has been anchored by his team. They depict him as somebody who will bob and weave with the tide - not unlike many other successful quarterbacks. Last year, however, he sort of was the anchor. He rode the second ranked defense in the league to a wild card berth and then laid an egg in the playoffs. What he gave the Giants last season was not enough, and for their sake, I wouldn't want to see another elite defense wasted this season.

All that being said, I'm not saying he isn't by far the best option at quarterback and I'm not saying - when Odell returns - that he won't round back into form. I would not rule out a late-career renaissance, especially in today's NFL where 36 isn't all that old for a quarterback. Part of me expects this post to come back and bite me when they win another Super Bowl this year, but when it does let's not lay the crow on too thick because for all my arguing I'm still merely asking the question.

 

[Scoe]

One of the things that gets overlooked with the 2007 teams is that Eli was tied for the league lead in interceptions. The offense didn't have an 1800+ yard rusher to offset that. On paper, you might have thought that maybe they win their home playoff game and bow out in the divisional round. That they went on to win 4 playoff games, with Manning throwing only INT in the postseason, is what makes sports great. You don't know until they play the games.

Very true, one thing about the Giants that year is the rookies Bradshaw only played in 2 games that year, Steve Smith 5 games and Boss emerged once Shockey got injured. Steve Smith was very clutch for that team, he had the forgotten catch in SB 42 after the Tyree catch.

 

[champs99and04]

Wow, this is an all timer in terms of stupidity. Comparing Eli to Kapernick, seen it all now.

Since he came into the league his numbers compare pretty favorably to Eli and he's about two plays from having two rings. The comparison might not be as far-fetched as you think.

 

[champs99and04]

The best cross-sport comparison I can think of for Eli is Andy Pettitte. Love both, neither are Hall of Famers.

 

[Robertelamin]

The best cross-sport comparison I can think of for Eli is Andy Pettitte. Love both, neither are Hall of Famers.

Comparing a starting pitcher that maybe pitches in 20% of games if everything goes perfect to a QB that has never missed a game and has probably taken 99% of the snaps in the last 13 is stupid. At least use the NBA or NHL for a cross sport comparison.

 

[mauconnfan]

The best cross-sport comparison I can think of for Eli is Andy Pettitte. Love both, neither are Hall of Famers.

Eli will be a HOFer and there are many who know a lot more than you or I that have him in there already, I mean football guys not BY guys. He has his shortcomings but anyone denying how good he has been, even on some very bad teams just doesn't like the guy and that's fine. But you're wrong on this one. Not saying he still has it that's yet to be proven, but he's been a real good one for a long time.

The Pettite comparison is ridiculous by the way.

 

[Waquoit]

I am a Jet fan. You know what, I'll gladly take him onto my pack of losers anytime.

You already have the pride of the Hartford Colonials. What more could you want?

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Holy hell Giant fans are protective of Eli. "A true professional since day one." Listen to yourself.

I never said he was Trent Dilfer. I don't think anybody has ever said that and I don't think anybody credible has said he road the coattails of his defense. My point is that, given what he makes, he needs to be able to overcome some level of roster deficiencies in order to be worth the investment. When you look around the division and see Dak Prescott making $600,000 and Carson Wentz making $6 million, you can see what I'm talking about. There is a reason that those offensive lines are among the best in the league - they can afford to pay for them.

And that's the generous Eli argument. The not-so-generous argument is that we live in 2017 and he hasn't won a playoff game in five seasons. Now, you could say the same about Drew Brees. The difference is that Brees' performance has not dipped over that time frame the way Eli's has, and to the extent that you can isolate player performance from roster context, all available data suggests that Eli has been in a steep decline. The link @The Viking posts conveniently neglects the fact that the blurb would go on to credit the Giants strong interior line and rank them 20th - not terribly far off the mean - in the league as a unit. There is also great irony in using a website to back your claims that has independently graded Eli as average over the last four seasons:

'11 - 91.9 (his best season)
'12 - 88.4
'13 - 76.2
'14 - 79.5
'15 - 78.2
'16 - 70.5

These numbers to not depict Eli as somebody who has been anchored by his team. They depict him as somebody who will bob and weave with the tide - not unlike many other successful quarterbacks. Last year, however, he sort of was the anchor. He rode the second ranked defense in the league to a wild card berth and then laid an egg in the playoffs. What he gave the Giants last season was not enough, and for their sake, I wouldn't want to see another elite defense wasted this season.

All that being said, I'm not saying he isn't by far the best option at quarterback and I'm not saying - when Odell returns - that he won't round back into form. I would not rule out a late-career renaissance, especially in today's NFL where 36 isn't all that old for a quarterback. Part of me expects this post to come back and bite me when they win another Super Bowl this year, but when it does let's not lay the crow on too thick because for all my arguing I'm still merely asking the question.

In you're earlier posts, you referenced how a QB should be able to lead the team despite the odds against him.

Being a true professional is just that. He's been the unquestioned leader of the Giants for a decade, he does more pre-snap than nearly anyone in the league and he's done it without consistently great skill position players.

You're shocked that Giants fans are protective of Eli? I'm shocked you don't understand why that would be the case.

The man has been an anchor of the toughest position to fill in sports and has won two of the more dramatic Super Bowls of all time. So when people take shots at him, it's tough for me as Giant fan and an Eli apologista (if you will) to not fire back.

And to top that off about the salary comment, the QBs this season getting paid more than Eli in 2017: Flacco, Palmer, Cousins, Ryan, Rodgers, Tannehill and Cam. Then comes Eli with 6 guys beneath him all within $2M of Eli's $19.4M.

QB's are expensive - what's the alternative? Cutting Eli at $19.4M and paying Mike Glennon $14m? Tyrod Taylor $10M?

And yes, I understand Eli's is a long term deal, but that's just what QBs are paid.

I think you really have to be a Giant fan that has watched nearly every single game of his career to really appreciate him. I'm biased, but I also think there's something to be said for watching his game and not just seeing stats or catching the occasional prime time game to get a sense for what he brings to the table.

A lot of guys get dinged for not winning and a lot of guys get dinged for winning, but not having the stats. He has both, I don't understand why he can't be appreciated for what he is - a good NFL QB, who has risen to the occasion in the playoffs and won titles.

 

[mauconnfan]

In you're earlier posts, you referenced how a QB should be able to lead the team despite the odds against him.

Being a true professional is just that. He's been the unquestioned leader of the Giants for a decade, he does more pre-snap than nearly anyone in the league and he's done it without consistently great skill position players.

You're shocked that Giants fans are protective of Eli? I'm shocked you don't understand why that would be the case.

The man has been an anchor of the toughest position to fill in sports and has won two of the more dramatic Super Bowls of all time. So when people take shots at him, it's tough for me as Giant fan and an Eli apologista (if you will) to not fire back.

And to top that off about the salary comment, the QBs this season getting paid more than Eli in 2017: Flacco, Palmer, Cousins, Ryan, Rodgers, Tannehill and Cam. Then comes Eli with 6 guys beneath him all within $2M of Eli's $19.4M.

QB's are expensive - what's the alternative? Cutting Eli at $19.4M and paying Mike Glennon $14m? Tyrod Taylor $10M?

And yes, I understand Eli's is a long term deal, but that's just what QBs are paid.

I think you really have to be a Giant fan that has watched nearly every single game of his career to really appreciate him. I'm biased, but I also think there's something to be said for watching his game and not just seeing stats or catching the occasional prime time game to get a sense for what he brings to the table.

A lot of guys get dinged for not winning and a lot of guys get dinged for winning, but not having the stats. He has both, I don't understand why he can't be appreciated for what he is - a good NFL QB, who has risen to the occasion in the playoffs and won titles.

This^^^^^ spot on.

 

[gtcam]

In the end - Eli won two (2) Super Bowls
There are guys in the HoF that have won 0 or 1
I think he will be a HoFer
Does he have his moments of OMG? Hell yeah but he wouldn't be Eli without them
PLUS he's been doing it for a majority of his career with little or no OL help
Is he the best? No
But he has two rings - something as a lifetime GMan fan that I thought I would never see

 

[Jerry1714]

Since he came into the league his numbers compare pretty favorably to Eli and he's about two plays from having two rings. The comparison might not be as far-fetched as you think.

So a guy who has played in 1 SB, and was never a play away from winning that one, somehow is 2 plays away from having 2 rings? My god this is stupid. And then I see your Andy Petite take? Do you wear velcro shoes?

You really should stop talking.

 

[intlzncster]

My point is that, given what he makes, he needs to be able to overcome some level of roster deficiencies in order to be worth the investment. When you look around the division and see Dak Prescott making $600,000 and Carson Wentz making $6 million, you can see what I'm talking about. There is a reason that those offensive lines are among the best in the league - they can afford to pay for them.

Impossible to compare rookies/young players to vets when talking about what QBs make. Young players are locked in and inherently paid less than their worth. Vets are paid market value (for the most part). And in this market, Mike Glennon makes 16m. Osweiler 15m. etc etc

 

[champs99and04]

In you're earlier posts, you referenced how a QB should be able to lead the team despite the odds against him.

Being a true professional is just that. He's been the unquestioned leader of the Giants for a decade, he does more pre-snap than nearly anyone in the league and he's done it without consistently great skill position players.

You're shocked that Giants fans are protective of Eli? I'm shocked you don't understand why that would be the case.

The man has been an anchor of the toughest position to fill in sports and has won two of the more dramatic Super Bowls of all time. So when people take shots at him, it's tough for me as Giant fan and an Eli apologista (if you will) to not fire back.

And to top that off about the salary comment, the QBs this season getting paid more than Eli in 2017: Flacco, Palmer, Cousins, Ryan, Rodgers, Tannehill and Cam. Then comes Eli with 6 guys beneath him all within $2M of Eli's $19.4M.

QB's are expensive - what's the alternative? Cutting Eli at $19.4M and paying Mike Glennon $14m? Tyrod Taylor $10M?

And yes, I understand Eli's is a long term deal, but that's just what QBs are paid.

I think you really have to be a Giant fan that has watched nearly every single game of his career to really appreciate him. I'm biased, but I also think there's something to be said for watching his game and not just seeing stats or catching the occasional prime time game to get a sense for what he brings to the table.

A lot of guys get dinged for not winning and a lot of guys get dinged for winning, but not having the stats. He has both, I don't understand why he can't be appreciated for what he is - a good NFL QB, who has risen to the occasion in the playoffs and won titles.

I can agree with some of that, but if we're narrowing our pool of people capable of appreciating Eli to strictly Giants fans, then that doesn't leave much room for discussion. And as far as sentiment goes, I'd argue that mine extends further than just about anybody who isn't a Giants fan. It's not so hard to appreciate him as a Patriots hater and just a football fan in general. Him playing in New York and for a division rival and all, I'm not exactly foreign to the experience of watching him play. I've watched him play many, many times and I've watched virtually all of his career playoff games. There probably aren't five players in the league today that have been through the ringer with me like he has, and actually, I like him quite a bit...so I certainly understand why Giant fans would be eager to defend him.

This isn't a biography on his career, though. It's a commentary on where the franchise stands right now and whether they're getting everything they need out of the position. These were the same questions people were asking themselves not too long ago about Tom Coughlin (ironically, I was probably one of the last people of the opinion that he should be retained).

Keep in mind that I'm not calling for a change right now. It's unrealistic to flip the tenor of an entire franchise overnight and it's certainly not as simple, in that league, of plugging somebody in without setting the clock back too far. They have a roster that is built to win now and I think Eli can still be the guy to do it.

I just think you have to start planting the seeds at some point. He's not getting any younger and the franchise has been mired in mediocrity for nearly half a decade. Many of these same things were said about Brady a couple years ago, so it's not hard to envision a scenario where he bounces back. I simply disagree with the notion that the team around him is holding him back. I think it is as much the other way around.

 

[champs99and04]

So a guy who has played in 1 SB, and was never a play away from winning that one, somehow is 2 plays away from having 2 rings? My god this is stupid. And then I see your Andy Petite take? Do you wear velcro shoes?

You really should stop talking.

Um, they were at the Ravens five with less than two minutes to go, down five. The following year they were in Seattle territory driving to go ahead and likely would have handled Denver. Yes I'm assuming some but I think you can get the point despite not wanting to.

You're awfully snippy for somebody who rarely expresses an original thought and has shown himself ITT to be an Eli fanboy of the likes that would make upstater blush. I honestly thought the Pettitte comparison was being kind to Eli, but I see your breatheren have already got the deflection machine up and running there too.

 

[champs99and04]

Impossible to compare rookies/young players to vets when talking about what QBs make. Young players are locked in and inherently paid less than their worth. Vets are paid market value (for the most part). And in this market, Mike Glennon makes 16m. Osweiler 15m. etc etc

Trust me I get it. Quarterbacks that are worth anything rarely hit the open market, which is why the Lions end up making Matthew Stafford the highest paid player in league history.

But isn't the point you're making kind of my point, too? If you're not winning with a quarterback that is being paid market value, there is nothing prohibiting you from trying another strategy like drafting one. That this seems so sacrilege is more indicative of how homogeneous the thinking process is - and this is where I think New England is different - within that league. You're better off splurging for talent elsewhere and drafting a young quarterback than you are mortgaging the farm to overpay an average quarterback. And if Eli's better than that, the time to show it is now.

 

[intlzncster]

Trust me I get it. Quarterbacks that are worth anything rarely hit the open market, which is why the Lions end up making Matthew Stafford the highest paid player in league history.

But isn't the point you're making kind of my point, too? If you're not winning with a quarterback that is being paid market value, there is nothing prohibiting you from trying another strategy like drafting one. That this seems so sacrilege is more indicative of how homogeneous the thinking process is - and this is where I think New England is different - within that league. You're better off splurging for talent elsewhere and drafting a young quarterback than you are mortgaging the farm to overpay an average quarterback. And if Eli's better than that, the time to show it is now.

I agree with the last bit, in that, teams should always draft and develop QBs as common practice. One, to be prepared for bad luck--young QBs are the cheapest form of insurance. Two, to have a successor lined up, and three, to be able to parlay developed backups into more assets. Pats do this well.

 

[Jerry1714]

Um, they were at the Ravens five with less than two minutes to go, down five. The following year they were in Seattle territory driving to go ahead and likely would have handled Denver. Yes I'm assuming some but I think you can get the point despite not wanting to.

You're awfully snippy for somebody who rarely expresses an original thought and has shown himself ITT to be an Eli fanboy of the likes that would make upstater blush. I honestly thought the Pettitte comparison was being kind to Eli, but I see your breatheren have already got the deflection machine up and running there too.

To you an original thought is saying something with no support and that is completely and utterly stupid just to get a reaction, Kapernick being 2 plays away from having two rings for example. I bet Skip Baylee's is must see TV for you.

I am Giants fan but not an Eli fan boy, he was bad last week and last year, no debating that, but he also had two of his best seasons in the two proceeding last year so saying the Giants should move on from him now is stupid. Just like your Kapernick and Petite comments, which again were hilariously stupid.

Honestly, from reading your football takes I really do not think you watch or follow the sport.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

I can agree with some of that, but if we're narrowing our pool of people capable of appreciating Eli to strictly Giants fans, then that doesn't leave much room for discussion. And as far as sentiment goes, I'd argue that mine extends further than just about anybody who isn't a Giants fan. It's not so hard to appreciate him as a Patriots hater and just a football fan in general. Him playing in New York and for a division rival and all, I'm not exactly foreign to the experience of watching him play. I've watched him play many, many times and I've watched virtually all of his career playoff games. There probably aren't five players in the league today that have been through the ringer with me like he has, and actually, I like him quite a bit...so I certainly understand why Giant fans would be eager to defend him.

This isn't a biography on his career, though. It's a commentary on where the franchise stands right now and whether they're getting everything they need out of the position. These were the same questions people were asking themselves not too long ago about Tom Coughlin (ironically, I was probably one of the last people of the opinion that he should be retained).

Keep in mind that I'm not calling for a change right now. It's unrealistic to flip the tenor of an entire franchise overnight and it's certainly not as simple, in that league, of plugging somebody in without setting the clock back too far. They have a roster that is built to win now and I think Eli can still be the guy to do it.

I just think you have to start planting the seeds at some point. He's not getting any younger and the franchise has been mired in mediocrity for nearly half a decade. Many of these same things were said about Brady a couple years ago, so it's not hard to envision a scenario where he bounces back. I simply disagree with the notion that the team around him is holding him back. I think it is as much the other way around.

If we're talking about the present I can buy more of your argument that the Giants, as constructed, aren't a great fit for what Eli excels at in this moment. The conversation has gone back and forth though between his body of work and where he stands in 2017.

It's puzzling to me that Eli really improved when McAdoo had his west coast offense fully functioning under Coughlin and then when McAdoo became the HC, the offense significantly regressed. Maybe that's on the line for the most part, but it just seems odd that it would go so far downhill - almost as odd that they refuse to address the line.

In any event, maybe I'm just too biased towards the guy, but I'd still take him on my team and with a half way decent line, I think he would play to the upper 3rd of NFL QBs, which is where he's pretty much been his whole career.