OT - Giants

[mauconnfan]

I agree Geno is a back qb, wasn't trying to make him out to be the future. But current state of the line (with a good sample size) I don't see how a pure pocket passer like Eli can succeed.

Pulling for Eli, that was a rough start last night. Was really hoping to see the offense take a step forward last night, instead went backwackwards.

On the bright side it's week 1 and the Giants D will be really good.

If the Giants D stays healthy it could be special. Need to sniff the QB more but will be very good.

On a side note as much as I hate them 'Boys I was happy to see Jalen Smith show his skills and his speed is back. Good for the kid long recovery and it looks like they made a good draft a couple years ago in waiting for him to heal.

 

[Rico444]

If the Giants D stays healthy it could be special. Need to sniff the QB more but will be very good.

On a side note as much as I hate them 'Boys I was happy to see Jalen Smith show his skills and his speed is back. Good for the kid long recovery and it looks like they made a good draft a couple years ago in waiting for him to heal.

Been watching Jaylon's recovery closely and if you had told me last year that he would look this good this soon, I'd have called you crazy. He's basically an average to above-average middle linebacker right now, and that's with the nerve in his foot not 100% yet. He still has trouble at times changing direction on a dime when he has to push off of the injured leg, but we can live with that while the nerve continues to heal. Hopefully by this time next year the nerve is 100%. The kid is super easy to root for, he's about as great a person as you could ask to play for your team.

 

[mauconnfan]

Been watching Jaylon's recovery closely and if you had told me last year that he would look this good this soon, I'd have called you crazy. He's basically an average to above-average middle linebacker right now, and that's with the nerve in his foot not 100% yet. He still has trouble at times changing direction on a dime when he has to push off of the injured leg, but we can live with that while the nerve continues to heal. Hopefully by this time next year the nerve is 100%. The kid is super easy to root for, he's about as great a person as you could ask to play for your team.

watched him at ND what a talent and as you said a great kid. Easy to root for? Not in that uni but the kid and the story is.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

When you ignore the offensive line for the past two seasons, this is what happens.

Wait, seriously, they didn't address that?
Even I knew that was necessary, and I don't start watching football for another 3 months.
I'm getting excited about baseball starting in 3 weeks.

 

[intlzncster]

Might not want to go down this road. You had a serial killer on your team, just sayin'.

To be fair, he was cut without reservation immediately on hearing the initial word. It's not like anyone in the NFL knew their was a murderer running around. Except Ray Lewis.

I mean, if we're going to play that game, we should bring up signing and holding on to wife-abusing kickers...

 

[intlzncster]

It's like if a college basketball team was terrible at rebounding, lost all of its big men, and replaced them with a JUCO, an Ivy Leaguer, and a couple of skinny freshmen.

You know, I come to an NFL thread to forget about MCBB for a second. Thanks nomar.

 

[intlzncster]

Eli is a competent starting QB. He really was never anything more than that, and he's slipped a little. Put the right team around him and he can win. He can't carry them anywhere. In any event, at 37, they should be drafting a QB to play behind him and learn. These teams that throw rookies in as starters often do the player and themselves a disservice. Dak survived it, but many don't.

And Dak survived because of a GOD-like OL, a top end running back, and an elite receiver + some other really good ones.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

And Dak survived because of a GOD-like OL, a top end running back, and an elite receiver + some other really good ones.

Dez ain't elite

 

[intlzncster]

Dez ain't elite

Come on. Really? Dude's a stud in my book. Unless you consider elite only OBJ, A Brown, Green, and Julio Jones.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Come on. Really? Dude's a stud in my book. Unless you consider elite only OBJ, A Brown, Green, and Julio Jones.

I'd take Jordy, Deandre, Evans, T.Y. over him too.

 

[Hankster]

Eli hater, nothings changed he can win and win it all with a good OLine he's the same guy. The interception was an awful decision but please look at the time left in the game - had a guy on the flat but wanted to get the ball downfield they needed 2 TD's. Bad choice? Hell yeah but they were not in position to run 6 minutes off the clock. Lee was sitting on their crossing routes like taking candy from a baby that's how creative McAdoo is nothing was open. He did throw behind a couple guys no doubt but he did that when he won titles this is not a reflection on Eli as much as it is on the OLine period and that line is an embarrassment to Reese and McAdoo who could both be gone by mid year based on the performance. Cowboys defense is ok at best wait until they see a pass rush that is good...scary?

Giants D was solid despite the yardage, bend but don't break. The Cowboys never see the end zone without one of the worst interference calls in the history of the NFL. Spags was relatively conservative also seemed to be afraid of the woman beater too much, needed to blitz Dak more but all in all they look to be very good.

Agree. The Giants D was great considering they were tanked. 47 plays in the first half? The Oline is hideous. Jr. would not have made a difference in my opinion.

 

[Hankster]

McAdoo's offensive play calling was a bore, only a few wrinkles.

Sure it was. Same plan different year. Opponents don't have much preparing to do.

 

[Hankster]

Come on. Really? Dude's a stud in my book. Unless you consider elite only OBJ, A Brown, Green, and Julio Jones.

I agree. Dez is a killer. Beasley is "a pain in the arse "good. He is steady every year. He is the one who can put the dagger to a good defense.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Eli is a competent starting QB. He really was never anything more than that, and he's slipped a little. Put the right team around him and he can win. He can't carry them anywhere. In any event, at 37, they should be drafting a QB to play behind him and learn. These teams that throw rookies in as starters often do the player and themselves a disservice. Dak survived it, but many don't.

Eli was nothing ever more than a competent QB? Please.

Top 10 All Time in TDs and Passing Yards and a 2 Time SB MVP, which included two last minute TD drives. But you knew that.

He's been a top 10 QB the vast majority of his career and there's no need to belittle those accomplishments.

He's never been a top 3 or 5 QB but merely competent? Come on.

 

[Rico444]

watched him at ND what a talent and as you said a great kid. Easy to root for? Not in that uni but the kid and the story is.

I guess in your case, he's hard to root against.

 

[jojipoji]

When your running backs average 2.8 yards rushing and your offensive line gives you no time, it doesn't matter if it's Brady or Rodgers back there. You are not winning. I really think HCBM needs to relinquish his play calling duties. He's too involved.

 

[intlzncster]

When your running backs average 2.8 yards rushing and your offensive line gives you no time, it doesn't matter if it's Brady or Rodgers back there. You are not winning. I really think HCBM needs to relinquish his play calling duties. He's too involved.

Hate HC calling plays in the NFL. Too much going on. I can see overruling a play or two here. Maybe some late game situations, but man, it's tough to be a coordinator and HC at the same time at the highest level. I mean, even BB doesn't call plays.

A HC is an overseer. He's got to know what's going on everywhere, but not be a 'specialist' so to speak.

 

[champs99and04]

Am I living on a different planet where the quarterback is not directly responsible for the production of the offense? Eli is the head of the operation. That means he gets the glory when things go well and it means he takes accountability when they don't. The offensive line being terrible is obviously out of his control to some extent, but the sample here is not small and my conclusions were not drawn from one game. The Giants offense over the last four years, per Football Outsiders, has ranked:

'16 - 22nd
'15 - 19th
'14 - 15th
'13 - 31st

The idea that Brady or Rodgers would struggle as severely is absurd. In a vacuum, sure, defenders need to be blocked. But the process of playing quarterback in the NFL is a lot more involved than that - the best ones, like Brady, are able to navigate unthinkable uncertainty on the line by manufacturing a run game, syncing his throws and drop-backs to the patterns of his receivers, and adjusting protection schemes to bridge gaps in communication and continuity. Being able to extract a level of achievement from your teammates is like half the job description when you're a quarterback.

I don't agree with @upstater on everything football related, but he's managed to convince me that the greatest quarterbacks can overcome almost any degree of attrition. They great ones are power-consumed and they're manic and at times I think the same aloofness that serves Eli well under pressure is the quotient that permits dumb stuff to happen continuously.

If we're going to label Eli as a guy who can succeed with a good line, great defense, and quality play-makers, then fine. There is nothing wrong with that. But there are a lot of guys in that group. Colin Kaepernick is in that group. Russell Wilson is in a group above that. If you're going to pay a 37-year-old top dollar, I'd prefer that he be demonstrably better than Colin Kaepernick. You can't have the complete team and the great quarterback, unless that quarterback is available on the cheap (Wilson and Seattle in '13).

 

[The Viking]

According to Pro Football Focus, the Giants have the worst pair of Tackles in the game. There is a reason he feels like he has to get rid of the ball as quickly as possible, which can obviously lead to bad throws.

Ranking all 32 NFL offensive lines this season | NFL Analysis | Pro Football Focus

Besides, I don't think anyone is saying that Eli Manning is as good as Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers, are they? Although he has beaten them both in big games and owns 2 super bowl mvp's and made some of the biggest throws in super bowl history. That's good enough for me.

 

[mauconnfan]

According to Pro Football Focus, the Giants have the worst pair of Tackles in the game. There is a reason he feels like he has to get rid of the ball as quickly as possible, which can obviously lead to bad throws.

Ranking all 32 NFL offensive lines this season | NFL Analysis | Pro Football Focus

Besides, I don't think anyone is saying that Eli Manning is as good as Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers, are they? Although he has beaten them both in big games and owns 2 super bowl mvp's and made some of the biggest throws in super bowl history. That's good enough for me.

When you talk like this you're like my favorite Red Sox fan

 

[HuskyHawk]

Eli was nothing ever more than a competent QB? Please.

Top 10 All Time in TDs and Passing Yards and a 2 Time SB MVP, which included two last minute TD drives. But you knew that.

He's been a top 10 QB the vast majority of his career and there's no need to belittle those accomplishments.

He's never been a top 3 or 5 QB but merely competent? Come on.

Fair enough, I'll buy that. Top 10, never top 5, sounds about right. That's generally what you need in the playoffs, maybe top 15 if you have a fantastic D. He's slipped even from top 10 now though. But honestly, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. The bottom half of the league's QBs do not keep their jobs like Eli has. You know the guys I am talking about. Every year, half the teams have a guy who is trying to win a job or struggling to keep one. Including every Jet's QB in recent memory. Eli has never been in that group. I valued the word competent more highly than you.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Am I living on a different planet where the quarterback is not directly responsible for the production of the offense? Eli is the head of the operation. That means he gets the glory when things go well and it means he takes accountability when they don't. The offensive line being terrible is obviously out of his control to some extent, but the sample here is not small and my conclusions were not drawn from one game. The Giants offense over the last four years, per Football Outsiders, has ranked:

'16 - 22nd
'15 - 19th
'14 - 15th
'13 - 31st

The idea that Brady or Rodgers would struggle as severely is absurd. In a vacuum, sure, defenders need to be blocked. But the process of playing quarterback in the NFL is a lot more involved than that - the best ones, like Brady, are able to navigate unthinkable uncertainty on the line by manufacturing a run game, syncing his throws and drop-backs to the patterns of his receivers, and adjusting protection schemes to bridge gaps in communication and continuity. Being able to extract a level of achievement from your teammates is like half the job description when you're a quarterback.

I don't agree with @upstater on everything football related, but he's managed to convince me that the greatest quarterbacks can overcome almost any degree of attrition. They great ones are power-consumed and they're manic and at times I think the same aloofness that serves Eli well under pressure is the quotient that permits dumb stuff to happen continuously.

If we're going to label Eli as a guy who can succeed with a good line, great defense, and quality play-makers, then fine. There is nothing wrong with that. But there are a lot of guys in that group. Colin Kaepernick is in that group. Russell Wilson is in a group above that. If you're going to pay a 37-year-old top dollar, I'd prefer that he be demonstrably better than Colin Kaepernick. You can't have the complete team and the great quarterback, unless that quarterback is available on the cheap (Wilson and Seattle in '13).

What a bunch of crap. So the bar is Brady/Rodgers or Colin Kaepernick? Get a grip.

To that point, you don't think Brady would struggle behind this offensive line? Eli may be the least mobile QB in the NFL, but Brady isn't far behind him. Every QB needs time in the pocket and he just doesn't have any.

"Being able to extract a level of achievement from your teammates is like half the job description?" I don't know, say like making an undrafted free agent a Pro Bowl WR (Cruz) or winning two Super Bowls with 4th/7th rd draft picks at RB (Jacobs/Bradshaw). If you look at the assortment of skill position players he's had around his career it's basically Tiki when he was young, a couple years of Plaxico, couple years of Hakeem Nicks/Cruz, then Beckham. Good players, particularly Beckham, but not a who's who of Pro Bowlers.

Also the condescending point of "If we're going to label Eli as a guy who can succeed with a good line, great defense, and quality play-makers, then fine" is BS too. Good line, great defense, quality play makers. Sort of sounds like the components on any good team, no? Want to name me a QB who's won a SB without those components? I'll hang up and listen.

The thing about every Eli argument is that, no reasonable Giant fan has ever said he's in contention year in and year out as the games best QB. But, myself and others, just find it laughable to act like he's Trent Dilfer or other QBs who have rode the coattails of a defense.

Eli has won on the biggest stage twice, been a true professional since day 1 and given any semblance of a line has put up numbers that put him in the Top 10 QBs of his era.

 

[Scoe]

All the championships my teams have won since has a way of healing old wounds. You can say 2-0 all you want if you want to sound like a "get off my lawn" guy.

So you wanna just forget about the fact the Pats lost those superbowls to Eli and the Giants I get it.

 

[Waquoit]

So you wanna just forget about the fact the Pats lost those superbowls to Eli and the Giants I get it.

Not forget, it makes it easier to laugh at Giants fans living on past glories. They sound like Brooklyn Dodger fans.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Not forget, it makes it easier to laugh at Giants fans living on past glories. They sound like Brooklyn Dodger fans.

So as UConn fans, we can only celebrate the 2014 title? Kemba's run is ancient history. May as well have been San Francisco with Russell.

 

[Jerry1714]

Am I living on a different planet where the quarterback is not directly responsible for the production of the offense? Eli is the head of the operation. That means he gets the glory when things go well and it means he takes accountability when they don't. The offensive line being terrible is obviously out of his control to some extent, but the sample here is not small and my conclusions were not drawn from one game. The Giants offense over the last four years, per Football Outsiders, has ranked:

'16 - 22nd
'15 - 19th
'14 - 15th
'13 - 31st

The idea that Brady or Rodgers would struggle as severely is absurd. In a vacuum, sure, defenders need to be blocked. But the process of playing quarterback in the NFL is a lot more involved than that - the best ones, like Brady, are able to navigate unthinkable uncertainty on the line by manufacturing a run game, syncing his throws and drop-backs to the patterns of his receivers, and adjusting protection schemes to bridge gaps in communication and continuity. Being able to extract a level of achievement from your teammates is like half the job description when you're a quarterback.

I don't agree with @upstater on everything football related, but he's managed to convince me that the greatest quarterbacks can overcome almost any degree of attrition. They great ones are power-consumed and they're manic and at times I think the same aloofness that serves Eli well under pressure is the quotient that permits dumb stuff to happen continuously.

If we're going to label Eli as a guy who can succeed with a good line, great defense, and quality play-makers, then fine. There is nothing wrong with that. But there are a lot of guys in that group. Colin Kaepernick is in that group. Russell Wilson is in a group above that. If you're going to pay a 37-year-old top dollar, I'd prefer that he be demonstrably better than Colin Kaepernick. You can't have the complete team and the great quarterback, unless that quarterback is available on the cheap (Wilson and Seattle in '13).

Wow, this is an all timer in terms of stupidity. Comparing Eli to Kapernick, seen it all now.

 

[Jerry1714]

Eli is a competent starting QB. He really was never anything more than that, and he's slipped a little. Put the right team around him and he can win. He can't carry them anywhere. In any event, at 37, they should be drafting a QB to play behind him and learn. These teams that throw rookies in as starters often do the player and themselves a disservice. Dak survived it, but many don't.

He won a SB with the 26th ranked defense and 32nd ranked running game.

In other words, you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[HuskyHawk]

He won a SB with the 26th ranked defense and 32nd ranked running game.

In other words, you have no idea what you are talking about.

And the defense becoming a strong force late in the year had nothing at all to do with the 7-7 Giants making the playoffs and getting to the Superbowl? That was all Eli I suppose. I'm not saying he wasn't good in 2011, he clearly was very good. That defense was not the 26th best D by the time they reached the playoffs.

 

[Jerry1714]

And the defense becoming a strong force late in the year had nothing at all to do with the 7-7 Giants making the playoffs and getting to the Superbowl? That was all Eli I suppose. I'm not saying he wasn't good in 2011, he clearly was very good. That defense was not the 26th best D by the time they reached the playoffs.

Again, unsupported statement with no stats or anything to back it up.

Eli had 9 TDs, 1 pick, 65% completion percentage in the playoffs, not to mention his 11 game winning drives that season.

Your original statement was completely baseless and inaccurate, stop trying to defend it. To say a guy with 2 SBs and will finish in the top 6 all time of every major passing stat is just "competent" is almost as off base as your comments regarding the legalities of gambling.

 

[intlzncster]

Not forget, it makes it easier to laugh at Giants fans living on past glories. They sound like Brooklyn Dodger fans.

As an ardent Pats fan, I can't get behind that. I mean, 2007 will sting no matter what. Not as bad as if everything fell apart mind you. But it's still my 'worst' sports loss. Winning 2 and counting since then has certainly helped.

And I hold that 1999 UCONN championship in equal, probably higher, estimation than current day championships.