OT - Giants

[jojipoji]

When your running backs average 2.8 yards rushing and your offensive line gives you no time, it doesn't matter if it's Brady or Rodgers back there. You are not winning. I really think HCBM needs to relinquish his play calling duties. He's too involved.

 

[intlzncster]

When your running backs average 2.8 yards rushing and your offensive line gives you no time, it doesn't matter if it's Brady or Rodgers back there. You are not winning. I really think HCBM needs to relinquish his play calling duties. He's too involved.

Hate HC calling plays in the NFL. Too much going on. I can see overruling a play or two here. Maybe some late game situations, but man, it's tough to be a coordinator and HC at the same time at the highest level. I mean, even BB doesn't call plays.

A HC is an overseer. He's got to know what's going on everywhere, but not be a 'specialist' so to speak.

 

[champs99and04]

Am I living on a different planet where the quarterback is not directly responsible for the production of the offense? Eli is the head of the operation. That means he gets the glory when things go well and it means he takes accountability when they don't. The offensive line being terrible is obviously out of his control to some extent, but the sample here is not small and my conclusions were not drawn from one game. The Giants offense over the last four years, per Football Outsiders, has ranked:

'16 - 22nd
'15 - 19th
'14 - 15th
'13 - 31st

The idea that Brady or Rodgers would struggle as severely is absurd. In a vacuum, sure, defenders need to be blocked. But the process of playing quarterback in the NFL is a lot more involved than that - the best ones, like Brady, are able to navigate unthinkable uncertainty on the line by manufacturing a run game, syncing his throws and drop-backs to the patterns of his receivers, and adjusting protection schemes to bridge gaps in communication and continuity. Being able to extract a level of achievement from your teammates is like half the job description when you're a quarterback.

I don't agree with @upstater on everything football related, but he's managed to convince me that the greatest quarterbacks can overcome almost any degree of attrition. They great ones are power-consumed and they're manic and at times I think the same aloofness that serves Eli well under pressure is the quotient that permits dumb stuff to happen continuously.

If we're going to label Eli as a guy who can succeed with a good line, great defense, and quality play-makers, then fine. There is nothing wrong with that. But there are a lot of guys in that group. Colin Kaepernick is in that group. Russell Wilson is in a group above that. If you're going to pay a 37-year-old top dollar, I'd prefer that he be demonstrably better than Colin Kaepernick. You can't have the complete team and the great quarterback, unless that quarterback is available on the cheap (Wilson and Seattle in '13).

 

[The Viking]

According to Pro Football Focus, the Giants have the worst pair of Tackles in the game. There is a reason he feels like he has to get rid of the ball as quickly as possible, which can obviously lead to bad throws.

Ranking all 32 NFL offensive lines this season | NFL Analysis | Pro Football Focus

Besides, I don't think anyone is saying that Eli Manning is as good as Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers, are they? Although he has beaten them both in big games and owns 2 super bowl mvp's and made some of the biggest throws in super bowl history. That's good enough for me.

 

[mauconnfan]

According to Pro Football Focus, the Giants have the worst pair of Tackles in the game. There is a reason he feels like he has to get rid of the ball as quickly as possible, which can obviously lead to bad throws.

Ranking all 32 NFL offensive lines this season | NFL Analysis | Pro Football Focus

Besides, I don't think anyone is saying that Eli Manning is as good as Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers, are they? Although he has beaten them both in big games and owns 2 super bowl mvp's and made some of the biggest throws in super bowl history. That's good enough for me.

When you talk like this you're like my favorite Red Sox fan

 

[HuskyHawk]

Eli was nothing ever more than a competent QB? Please.

Top 10 All Time in TDs and Passing Yards and a 2 Time SB MVP, which included two last minute TD drives. But you knew that.

He's been a top 10 QB the vast majority of his career and there's no need to belittle those accomplishments.

He's never been a top 3 or 5 QB but merely competent? Come on.

Fair enough, I'll buy that. Top 10, never top 5, sounds about right. That's generally what you need in the playoffs, maybe top 15 if you have a fantastic D. He's slipped even from top 10 now though. But honestly, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. The bottom half of the league's QBs do not keep their jobs like Eli has. You know the guys I am talking about. Every year, half the teams have a guy who is trying to win a job or struggling to keep one. Including every Jet's QB in recent memory. Eli has never been in that group. I valued the word competent more highly than you.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Am I living on a different planet where the quarterback is not directly responsible for the production of the offense? Eli is the head of the operation. That means he gets the glory when things go well and it means he takes accountability when they don't. The offensive line being terrible is obviously out of his control to some extent, but the sample here is not small and my conclusions were not drawn from one game. The Giants offense over the last four years, per Football Outsiders, has ranked:

'16 - 22nd
'15 - 19th
'14 - 15th
'13 - 31st

The idea that Brady or Rodgers would struggle as severely is absurd. In a vacuum, sure, defenders need to be blocked. But the process of playing quarterback in the NFL is a lot more involved than that - the best ones, like Brady, are able to navigate unthinkable uncertainty on the line by manufacturing a run game, syncing his throws and drop-backs to the patterns of his receivers, and adjusting protection schemes to bridge gaps in communication and continuity. Being able to extract a level of achievement from your teammates is like half the job description when you're a quarterback.

I don't agree with @upstater on everything football related, but he's managed to convince me that the greatest quarterbacks can overcome almost any degree of attrition. They great ones are power-consumed and they're manic and at times I think the same aloofness that serves Eli well under pressure is the quotient that permits dumb stuff to happen continuously.

If we're going to label Eli as a guy who can succeed with a good line, great defense, and quality play-makers, then fine. There is nothing wrong with that. But there are a lot of guys in that group. Colin Kaepernick is in that group. Russell Wilson is in a group above that. If you're going to pay a 37-year-old top dollar, I'd prefer that he be demonstrably better than Colin Kaepernick. You can't have the complete team and the great quarterback, unless that quarterback is available on the cheap (Wilson and Seattle in '13).

What a bunch of crap. So the bar is Brady/Rodgers or Colin Kaepernick? Get a grip.

To that point, you don't think Brady would struggle behind this offensive line? Eli may be the least mobile QB in the NFL, but Brady isn't far behind him. Every QB needs time in the pocket and he just doesn't have any.

"Being able to extract a level of achievement from your teammates is like half the job description?" I don't know, say like making an undrafted free agent a Pro Bowl WR (Cruz) or winning two Super Bowls with 4th/7th rd draft picks at RB (Jacobs/Bradshaw). If you look at the assortment of skill position players he's had around his career it's basically Tiki when he was young, a couple years of Plaxico, couple years of Hakeem Nicks/Cruz, then Beckham. Good players, particularly Beckham, but not a who's who of Pro Bowlers.

Also the condescending point of "If we're going to label Eli as a guy who can succeed with a good line, great defense, and quality play-makers, then fine" is BS too. Good line, great defense, quality play makers. Sort of sounds like the components on any good team, no? Want to name me a QB who's won a SB without those components? I'll hang up and listen.

The thing about every Eli argument is that, no reasonable Giant fan has ever said he's in contention year in and year out as the games best QB. But, myself and others, just find it laughable to act like he's Trent Dilfer or other QBs who have rode the coattails of a defense.

Eli has won on the biggest stage twice, been a true professional since day 1 and given any semblance of a line has put up numbers that put him in the Top 10 QBs of his era.

 

[Scoe]

All the championships my teams have won since has a way of healing old wounds. You can say 2-0 all you want if you want to sound like a "get off my lawn" guy.

So you wanna just forget about the fact the Pats lost those superbowls to Eli and the Giants I get it.

 

[Waquoit]

So you wanna just forget about the fact the Pats lost those superbowls to Eli and the Giants I get it.

Not forget, it makes it easier to laugh at Giants fans living on past glories. They sound like Brooklyn Dodger fans.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Not forget, it makes it easier to laugh at Giants fans living on past glories. They sound like Brooklyn Dodger fans.

So as UConn fans, we can only celebrate the 2014 title? Kemba's run is ancient history. May as well have been San Francisco with Russell.

 

[Jerry1714]

Am I living on a different planet where the quarterback is not directly responsible for the production of the offense? Eli is the head of the operation. That means he gets the glory when things go well and it means he takes accountability when they don't. The offensive line being terrible is obviously out of his control to some extent, but the sample here is not small and my conclusions were not drawn from one game. The Giants offense over the last four years, per Football Outsiders, has ranked:

'16 - 22nd
'15 - 19th
'14 - 15th
'13 - 31st

The idea that Brady or Rodgers would struggle as severely is absurd. In a vacuum, sure, defenders need to be blocked. But the process of playing quarterback in the NFL is a lot more involved than that - the best ones, like Brady, are able to navigate unthinkable uncertainty on the line by manufacturing a run game, syncing his throws and drop-backs to the patterns of his receivers, and adjusting protection schemes to bridge gaps in communication and continuity. Being able to extract a level of achievement from your teammates is like half the job description when you're a quarterback.

I don't agree with @upstater on everything football related, but he's managed to convince me that the greatest quarterbacks can overcome almost any degree of attrition. They great ones are power-consumed and they're manic and at times I think the same aloofness that serves Eli well under pressure is the quotient that permits dumb stuff to happen continuously.

If we're going to label Eli as a guy who can succeed with a good line, great defense, and quality play-makers, then fine. There is nothing wrong with that. But there are a lot of guys in that group. Colin Kaepernick is in that group. Russell Wilson is in a group above that. If you're going to pay a 37-year-old top dollar, I'd prefer that he be demonstrably better than Colin Kaepernick. You can't have the complete team and the great quarterback, unless that quarterback is available on the cheap (Wilson and Seattle in '13).

Wow, this is an all timer in terms of stupidity. Comparing Eli to Kapernick, seen it all now.

 

[Jerry1714]

Eli is a competent starting QB. He really was never anything more than that, and he's slipped a little. Put the right team around him and he can win. He can't carry them anywhere. In any event, at 37, they should be drafting a QB to play behind him and learn. These teams that throw rookies in as starters often do the player and themselves a disservice. Dak survived it, but many don't.

He won a SB with the 26th ranked defense and 32nd ranked running game.

In other words, you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[HuskyHawk]

He won a SB with the 26th ranked defense and 32nd ranked running game.

In other words, you have no idea what you are talking about.

And the defense becoming a strong force late in the year had nothing at all to do with the 7-7 Giants making the playoffs and getting to the Superbowl? That was all Eli I suppose. I'm not saying he wasn't good in 2011, he clearly was very good. That defense was not the 26th best D by the time they reached the playoffs.

 

[Jerry1714]

And the defense becoming a strong force late in the year had nothing at all to do with the 7-7 Giants making the playoffs and getting to the Superbowl? That was all Eli I suppose. I'm not saying he wasn't good in 2011, he clearly was very good. That defense was not the 26th best D by the time they reached the playoffs.

Again, unsupported statement with no stats or anything to back it up.

Eli had 9 TDs, 1 pick, 65% completion percentage in the playoffs, not to mention his 11 game winning drives that season.

Your original statement was completely baseless and inaccurate, stop trying to defend it. To say a guy with 2 SBs and will finish in the top 6 all time of every major passing stat is just "competent" is almost as off base as your comments regarding the legalities of gambling.

 

[intlzncster]

Not forget, it makes it easier to laugh at Giants fans living on past glories. They sound like Brooklyn Dodger fans.

As an ardent Pats fan, I can't get behind that. I mean, 2007 will sting no matter what. Not as bad as if everything fell apart mind you. But it's still my 'worst' sports loss. Winning 2 and counting since then has certainly helped.

And I hold that 1999 UCONN championship in equal, probably higher, estimation than current day championships.

 

[Scoe]

Not forget, it makes it easier to laugh at Giants fans living on past glories. They sound like Brooklyn Dodger fans.

Yeah 2007 and 2011 are ancient history. Hey I get it I get it you wanna forget those superbowls I would too its ok.

 

[Jerry1714]

As an ardent Pats fan, I can't get behind that. I mean, 2007 will sting no matter what. Not as bad as if everything fell apart mind you. But it's still my 'worst' sports loss. Winning 2 and counting since then has certainly helped.

And I hold that 1999 UCONN championship in equal, probably higher, estimation than current day championships.

I have been a live and old enough to remember all 4 Giants SBs and 2007 will never be matched as far as how good it felt.

 

[Scoe]

Not forget, it makes it easier to laugh at Giants fans living on past glories. They sound like Brooklyn Dodger fans.

So by your rationale lets just forget the fact that the pats didnt win 3 superbowls prior to the Giants superbowls so instead of 5 superbowls Brady has 2, and lets forget the Celtics 17 titles so they have 0 titles, oh thats right your just gonna move the goal posts.

 

[Waquoit]

As an ardent Pats fan, I can't get behind that. I mean, 2007 will sting no matter what.

It stings, of course. Ed Armbrister still stings. But 2 SB's in the meantime makes it like a mosquito bite than the gut punch the FB Giants fans wish it was. Are you all saying that beating Duke in two FF's since doesn't mitigate the pain of the Laettner shot?

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Btw - 2007/2011 don't take anything away from the fact that the Pats/Steelers are the two most successful franchises in the Super Bowl era.

I think it irks Giants fans when people take shots at Eli, because 2007 - 2011 it was just a lucky run.

But it happened twice.

The guy is good. In the top tier of his generation and has a place in Canton. When its all said and done, the history books and rings are there to back both of those statements up.

 

[Jerry1714]

Btw - 2007/2011 don't take anything away from the fact that the Pats/Steelers are the two most successful franchises in the Super Bowl era.

I think it irks Giants fans when people take shots at Eli, because 2007 - 2011 it was just a lucky run.

But it happened twice.

The guy is good. In the top tier of his generation and has a place in Canton. When its all said and done, the history books and rings are there to back both of those statements up.

I agree 100% with all this but the first statement. Cannot leave out the 9ers or Cowboys.

Just because those SB runs happened in the 80s or 90s does not make them any less valuable. Both of those teams have more division championships and playoff appearances than the Pats. Both of them also won SBs with more than 1 coach/qb combo.

 

[intlzncster]

He won a SB with the 26th ranked defense and 32nd ranked running game.

While technically true, this is a bit disingenuous. At the end of the season, they were not really the 26th ranked D. 2007 Giants are probably one of the best playoff defenses of our time. 2000 Ravens, 2015 Broncos, 2013 Seahawks, 2007 Giants. imo

 

[Jerry1714]

While technically true, this is a bit disingenuous. At the end of the season, they were not really the 26th ranked D. 2007 Giants are probably one of the best playoff defenses of our time. 2000 Ravens, 2015 Broncos, 2013 Seahawks, 2007 Giants. imo

I was talking about 2011 Giants.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Again, unsupported statement with no stats or anything to back it up.

Eli had 9 TDs, 1 pick, 65% completion percentage in the playoffs, not to mention his 11 game winning drives that season.

Your original statement was completely baseless and inaccurate, stop trying to defend it. To say a guy with 2 SBs and will finish in the top 6 all time of every major passing stat is just "competent" is almost as off base as your comments regarding the legalities of gambling.

He's been very good in the playoffs. He's also been inconsistent enough the rest of the time to keep the Giants out of the playoffs. I think this is pretty fair. New York Giants: Is Eli Manning Worthy Of The Hall of Fame?

Being top 6 in passing stats doesn't mean much given how the league has changed. It does speak to durability and longevity, and I give him props for that. His passer rating is not strong and he throws a lot of picks. How many times was he top 10 in passer rating in the league? Once. 2011. How about completion %? Top 10 once, 2010. Yards? Most of the time he was top 10. He's been a good, above average QB (what I called competent). Giants fans tend to overrate him due to his playoff exploits.

 

[intlzncster]

I was talking about 2011 Giants.

hahah gotcha. was really scratching my head there.