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Games 1-4 I'll go with Draymond, you can take Bron.
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OT: Draymond Green suspended for Game 5
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Games 1-4 I'll go with Draymond, you can take Bron.
Yet both the basic stats (I have already mentioned his leading the finals in all five major categories) and the quantitative analytics suggest exactly the opposite... he most definitely has been doing it the whole series. Folks just get tunnel vision when they see the win/loss record or when they look at field goal percentage and don't pay any attention to all the details.
Not only does he lead in the aforementioned categories, but he also leads the series in offensive rating, defensive rating, game score and Synergy's defensive rating if you don't trust the simple calculations. He's second in the series in overall +/- adjusted for 48 minutes.
I mean seriously, by every measure you can imagine he's been great this series. There is literally no evidence he hasn't. Funny thing is, none of the folks that are arguing he hasn't been good have given any rationale. It's basically been 'just cuz'
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I have every game dvr you can come over whenever your want and see how much better LeBron has been than any other player on the court at filling the passing Lanes getting back on help defense blocking shots and just being a beast on the defensive end
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Going to address a few things...
1. People are complaining that the league favors Lebron and use this Draymond incident as ammo. When the league reviewed the issue Lebron was issued a technical and Draymond a flagrant - aka Lebron received a more severe punishment. Green is a dirty, dirty player. He entices people. He finally got in Lebrons head in game 4 and was able to rile him up. Besides this, Green is a perennial flopper and would not have been on the ground to begin with for Lebron to walk over him had he not flopped. And he clear as day went for a low blow. FOURTH time this postseason. FOUR.
2. I'm a huge Lebron homer but tend to agree with @aceboon on his assessment of Lebron leading up to last nights game. It's fair to say that statistically and on the court he has been pretty damn good but it still is not as good as he can be. Game 2 and 4 he did not play up to Lebron standards and they need him on his A game every single night, every single play in this series. He and the Cavs cannot afford "good" games from Lebron. They need great games. He stepped up HUGE last night. Huge - probably his second best playoff performance ever. Kyrie's performance certainly doesn't hurt.
3. I still think ultimately the Warriors pull it out and I really wonder how this series turns out if Lebron plays with urgency and the way he is capable in the 4th quarter of game 4. Letting that game slip away that would've tied the series will likely prove to be the dagger, I believe. Hope I'm wrong.
1. People are complaining that the league favors Lebron and use this Draymond incident as ammo. When the league reviewed the issue Lebron was issued a technical and Draymond a flagrant - aka Lebron received a more severe punishment. Green is a dirty, dirty player. He entices people. He finally got in Lebrons head in game 4 and was able to rile him up. Besides this, Green is a perennial flopper and would not have been on the ground to begin with for Lebron to walk over him had he not flopped. And he clear as day went for a low blow. FOURTH time this postseason. FOUR.
2. I'm a huge Lebron homer but tend to agree with @aceboon on his assessment of Lebron leading up to last nights game. It's fair to say that statistically and on the court he has been pretty damn good but it still is not as good as he can be. Game 2 and 4 he did not play up to Lebron standards and they need him on his A game every single night, every single play in this series. He and the Cavs cannot afford "good" games from Lebron. They need great games. He stepped up HUGE last night. Huge - probably his second best playoff performance ever. Kyrie's performance certainly doesn't hurt.
3. I still think ultimately the Warriors pull it out and I really wonder how this series turns out if Lebron plays with urgency and the way he is capable in the 4th quarter of game 4. Letting that game slip away that would've tied the series will likely prove to be the dagger, I believe. Hope I'm wrong.
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He's a great great player, proved it last night. Doesn't make him a great guy that's all, pretty simple. He's not a bad guy that's for sure and I really don't hate him a bit. He was just more likable when he arrived and until the last few years. But who cares anyway he can do what he wants he could care less about the BY.lol
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He was a beast on the defensive end last night in the 4th quarter when it really counted. Wouldn't call the full performance or all series beastly but always solid. The 4th though last night was impressive.
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junglehusky
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Lemme just put this here and I'll walk away. *whistles casually*
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This is exactly why some people give this exact unfair assessment. It's because people expect LeBron to be solely responsible, because of his skill set, for carrying the entire team at all times for 46 minutes a game. So when he puts up 42 and 14 he does well but when he goes for 28 its just well average (only it's not it's just his average) and he needs to be otherworldly AND when he god forbid scores 20 and 9 and 7 and does all the small things, and blocks two shots, affects 6 more, boxes out hard on 10 more so others on his team get the rebound, but they lose the game well the detractors say well he should have scored 42 and 14. But the reality is you can't produce those numbers every game, nobody averages 42 and 14. So just because he has a 20/8/7 game doesn't mean he is playing sub-par, instead he is playing as well as his average indicates which in this series is 28. Which! is pretty damn good. And if you're asking for more, well then you are approaching unreasonable.
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My assessment is not unfair. Lebron has different standards than most. He is the best player on this planet and it isn't close. He is my favorite player and I debate day in and day out with friends about just how good he is. Considering his talent level and just how good the Warriors are, I believe he needs to play at his best every single play. He can't take plays off. He can't be careless with the ball. He can't forget that no one on the court can contain him and settle for jumpers or not attack the rim and try to draw fouls. In game 4 in the 4th quarter he was invincible. That is unacceptable with the game on the line and the possibility to tie the series going back to GS. Again, Lebron is having a good finals, I'm not denying that whatsoever. His stats are unbelievable (he is a walking 25, 7 & 7 stat line). What I'm simply getting at is GS is so good that he has to be at his best at all times in this series and can't have moments like the 4th quarter in game 4. Jeesh.
"He needs to be his best at all times"
And therein lies the problem. You're asking a human to be inhuman and given this, you say your assessment isn't unfair? The heck it isn't. No one is capable of being their best at all times. No one. I can't believe anyone could type an expectation someone has to be their best at all times and not stop and realize how unreasonable and irrational they're being while typing that.
I'll gladly beat a dead horse here: he leads the series in all five statistical categories as well as offensive and defensive rating. He's doing it against the team that broke the all-time single season wins record.
The problem isn't with LeBron, it's absolutely irrational expectations for him. Even when he's not his best, he's the best player on the planet. He shouldn't be penalized for being better than everyone else and therefore needs to perform to his greatness every single night. That's frankly not possible. But his 'average' games are still better than anyone else puts out. He has down nights like everyone. He's HUMAN. Let's stop expecting more than that.
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You're correct. Asking him to be perfect is perfectly impossible. I stand by this though, as good as he is and has been in this series what happened in the 4th quarter in game 4 when you are is good as he is cannot happen. Fair?
EDIT: I also want to double back to my expectations being called unfair. Perhaps they could be looked at as "expectations" but when I say things like "he can't be careless with the ball," I'm just expressing what I think is needed from him in order for the Cavs to win this series despite being severely outmatched by GS, IMO. Just because I think the Cavs NEED Lebron to play like that doesn't mean I expect it.
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Being his best at all times, should be a line for everyone. Its a generic tagline for all. Being better than everyone at all times is inhuman. Everyone has a stamina capacity. You can not fault him with those outputs. You can fault his teammates/organization for putting a supporting cast behind him, the coach for calling the plays or designing the defenses, hell the refs, anyone other than him. He is too productive and efficient in this series to argue that he needs to be better. There are 75 other people or things that need to be done better before he needs to get better in this series.
You say things in absolutes, "he can't be careless with the ball" like he is not allowed to turn the ball over once! haha. Hell he is LeBron right! He should have a 50 pt (20 layups because he shouldn't take one jumper.......and he better make ten for ten in FT's) and 20 and 8 stat line with 0 TO (He can't be careless with the ball). DAMNIT LeBron, Just be perfect. You are supposedly the best in the world. And everyone knows the best in the world is perfect! (This is a reaction to some of what your saying and a lot of what everyone else is insinuating)
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I'm going to let you take over. We are saying the same things. hah. Very similar post just now, just reading yours.
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I give up lol. You're misreading the angle I'm taking. Lebron is the best player in the world. At times he can play at a level that even surprises me considering I'm such a fan of his. I'm basically just stating the obvious that if the Cavs want to pull off this upset he has to play at that aforementioned ridiculous level of play. This doesn't mean I expect it, though.
What happened in the 4th quarter of game four seemed perfectly natural. He rested only a total of two minutes out of 48, the game was EXTREMELY physical where Golden State was bumping cutters, hacking at the ball with nothing called and the game had been really fast up and down in the third quarter. Combine that with a high usage and it seemed pretty obvious that LeBron's performance was largely (if not entirely) related to fatigue.
I don't think the Cavs need him to play like that. When push comes to shove, they're more talented than Golden State (although Golden State is a better 'team'). They just need to play smart and play together and not rely wholly on ISO ball. They can beat Golden State without LeBron giving a superhman effort every night. Even in game four, it wasn't on LeBron they blew the game. The problem is the fatigue was not just on him but the whole team wore down.
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I agree going into last night Lebron had been average to sub par for his standards. Turning the ball over just looking bad really in moments.
But this statement.... Cmon.
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Do people really think that Lebron has been playing poorly this finals? Dude is going to get another finals MVP stolen from him.
He's leading all players from both teams in GmSc by a good margin - with 120 through the five games. Kyrie is second at 101. Curry's leading the Warriors at 71.5. (Draymond was slightly ahead of him before he sat out game five).
He's leading all players from both teams in GmSc by a good margin - with 120 through the five games. Kyrie is second at 101. Curry's leading the Warriors at 71.5. (Draymond was slightly ahead of him before he sat out game five).
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Code:
Player GmSc
LeBron James 119.9
Kyrie Irving 101.1
Stephen Curry 71.7
Klay Thompson 65.9
Andre Iguodala 57.1
Draymond Green 56.9
Tristan Thompson 52.9
Shaun Livingston 42
Harrison Barnes 41.3
Richard Jefferson 29.1
J.R. Smith 28.9
Leandro Barbosa 24.6
Kevin Love 19.7
Andrew Bogut 16.3
Festus Ezeli 6.5
Anderson Varejao 5.4
Ian Clark 4.9
Jordan McRae 3.7
Iman Shumpert 3.4
Timofey Mozgov 2.7
Matthew Dellavedova 2.1
James Jones 1.4
James Michael McAdoo 1.3
Dahntay Jones 0.4
Channing Frye 0.2
Brandon Rush 0
Marreese Speights -1.4
Mo Williams -2Lebron actually has locked up the MVP being stolen from him. Curry would need to have an efficient 70 point game on Thursday to even try and catch up.
Since 1978 (modern box score), the only time two teammates had the highest GmSc in the finals and neither won MVP:
Code:
GmSc Player Finals
122.8 Julius Erving 1982
113.8 Andrew Toney 1982
107.7 Magic Johnson 1982Magic won the award.
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Haven't seen anyone say he's played poorly - only that he's been subpar by his (lofty) standards.
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What I quoted was in regards to just defense, what do turnovers on offense have to do with playing defense? Is it really that inconceivable that the player who has come in 2nd 2 years in a row for DPOY and should have won it at least one of those years had a better defensive series games 1-4 than Bron? Have you looked at GSW's net rating this series when Green has played C?
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I think the Finals MVP has to come from the winning team, anything else is counter-intuitive. But I debated with folks during the regular season about Curry being the best player in the world and opined that the finals would be a referendum on that. Granted Curry is likely still 85% healthy, but no question I think that LeBron has re-established his status as best in the game.
Seems like going forward there's more recognition that Curry's value is primarily offensive and then contingent upon his netherworldy 3pt shooting. Take even a little of that away and its difficult for him to dominate a game the way LeBron, Westbrook and Durant can.
Seems like going forward there's more recognition that Curry's value is primarily offensive and then contingent upon his netherworldy 3pt shooting. Take even a little of that away and its difficult for him to dominate a game the way LeBron, Westbrook and Durant can.
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LeBron is averaging 2 blocks/game and 2.6 steals/game
Green is averaging 1.25 blocks/game and 1.75 steals/game
Draymond also has an elite defender in Klay and AI who immensely helps out his defense. LeBron has literally guarded 1-5 on the defensive end and has had to be in a constant helping position because the Warriors have so many weapons and LeBron is trying to pick up his teammates slack with getting beat on back cuts and slips.
If LeBron was in Draymonds position with the talent that GSW have he would be even a better defender. Its a lot easier to play defense on GSW when you have Klay and AI on your team. LeBron doesn't have that luxury on his team on the defensive end.
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Curry is the best shooter and maybe offensive player in the game. When it comes to best basketball player (defense, rebounding, bball IQ, the whole package) its unquestionably LeBron. It really isn't even all that close when comparing the whole package of both player's games.
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I've watched Curry a ton the last couple months. I think Curry is clearly the best shooter in game and likely of all time. I don't think he's in a tier that some of the all time greats are in, regarding his overall "offensive game". In a clinching game, he can't will his team through any type of game like a Jordan or a Kobe or a Bird...or even as we saw last game a Lebron. You get him out on the break, in open spacing and the Warriors are flying all over the place? He's an assassin. In a half court, if you slow him/them down? He can't automatically impose what he wants to do...unless he starts draining 30 footers unconsciously. I'll also caveat that saying we don't know how hurt he really is. He might be more limited than he shows or lets on.
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Agreed. I think Klay is actually their best and most valuable player. Unlike Curry, when the going gets tough, usually Thompson is the guy that steps up and gets them baskets. Curry, when he's off, is usually really off for the rest of the night. Thompson gets aggressive and makes things happen when he's not shooting well. And his defense and court awareness is tremendous.
Curry makes people tune in, but it's Thompson, Green and Iguodala that make that team so successful.
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Just when I thought this thread couldn't get any dumber.
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Wow this is not very brilliant. Please look at this again and we'll give you a chance to redeem yourself. Or is the LeBron vs Curry thing a little rough on your bromance to not be bias?
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I don't think your understanding the expectations of LeBron....
I am rooting for the Cavs, I was rooting for OKC, I think a lot of people in general have put Curry way too high on pedestal, have people on this site and one or two of my buddies say Curry is better than LeBron, well that's obviously false, it's a non argument, and I hope people dropped that argument a couple of weeks ago...
But...
I believe LeBron is a top 5 player of all time and for the first 4 games of this series he didn't look like one, if you want to make excuses for him that's fine, but in reality his first 4 games was nothing like he showed last year in the finals, that is just a fact.
I don't think this series will necessary hurt his legacy no matter what happens, but I do think it will greatly increase his legacy if he somehow finds a way to steal and win this series, sometimes that what the top 3 or 5 greatest players in NBA history do, they steal games and series.
So back to my point, was LeBron playing below average for a great player the first 4 games of the series NO, but my expectations and I believe a lot people's are higher and they want to see him raise his game like he did in Game 5 and show the world he is one of the 3 or 4 or 5 greatest of all time.
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I think your jumping the gun here a bit...
Obviously the player who has benefit the most in the playoffs from the playoffs as far as value is Klay Thompson (it's been his coming out party), but to say he is better than Curry is a stretch. Has he been more important and better in certain spots in the playoffs YES, but we cannot forget Curry's overall brilliance throughout his career, he did put up one of the greatest regular season's in NBA history, and we have to remember Klay Thompson offensively is a one dimensional player who just now developing some other offensive traits like being able to create his own shot.
Curry can do everything offensively, everything....
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