OT: Draymond Green suspended for Game 5

[lange10]

"He needs to be his best at all times"

And therein lies the problem. You're asking a human to be inhuman and given this, you say your assessment isn't unfair? The heck it isn't. No one is capable of being their best at all times. No one. I can't believe anyone could type an expectation someone has to be their best at all times and not stop and realize how unreasonable and irrational they're being while typing that.

I'll gladly beat a dead horse here: he leads the series in all five statistical categories as well as offensive and defensive rating. He's doing it against the team that broke the all-time single season wins record.

The problem isn't with LeBron, it's absolutely irrational expectations for him. Even when he's not his best, he's the best player on the planet. He shouldn't be penalized for being better than everyone else and therefore needs to perform to his greatness every single night. That's frankly not possible. But his 'average' games are still better than anyone else puts out. He has down nights like everyone. He's HUMAN. Let's stop expecting more than that.

You're correct. Asking him to be perfect is perfectly impossible. I stand by this though, as good as he is and has been in this series what happened in the 4th quarter in game 4 when you are is good as he is cannot happen. Fair?

EDIT: I also want to double back to my expectations being called unfair. Perhaps they could be looked at as "expectations" but when I say things like "he can't be careless with the ball," I'm just expressing what I think is needed from him in order for the Cavs to win this series despite being severely outmatched by GS, IMO. Just because I think the Cavs NEED Lebron to play like that doesn't mean I expect it.

 

[kcc1442]

My assessment is not unfair. Lebron has different standards than most. He is the best player on this planet and it isn't close. He is my favorite player and I debate day in and day out with friends about just how good he is. Considering his talent level and just how good the Warriors are, I believe he needs to play at his best every single play. He can't take plays off. He can't be careless with the ball. He can't forget that no one on the court can contain him and settle for jumpers or not attack the rim and try to draw fouls. In game 4 in the 4th quarter he was invincible. That is unacceptable with the game on the line and the possibility to tie the series going back to GS. Again, Lebron is having a good finals, I'm not denying that whatsoever. His stats are unbelievable (he is a walking 25, 7 & 7 stat line). What I'm simply getting at is GS is so good that he has to be at his best at all times in this series and can't have moments like the 4th quarter in game 4. Jeesh.

Being his best at all times, should be a line for everyone. Its a generic tagline for all. Being better than everyone at all times is inhuman. Everyone has a stamina capacity. You can not fault him with those outputs. You can fault his teammates/organization for putting a supporting cast behind him, the coach for calling the plays or designing the defenses, hell the refs, anyone other than him. He is too productive and efficient in this series to argue that he needs to be better. There are 75 other people or things that need to be done better before he needs to get better in this series.

You say things in absolutes, "he can't be careless with the ball" like he is not allowed to turn the ball over once! haha. Hell he is LeBron right! He should have a 50 pt (20 layups because he shouldn't take one jumper.......and he better make ten for ten in FT's) and 20 and 8 stat line with 0 TO (He can't be careless with the ball). DAMNIT LeBron, Just be perfect. You are supposedly the best in the world. And everyone knows the best in the world is perfect! (This is a reaction to some of what your saying and a lot of what everyone else is insinuating)

 

[kcc1442]

"He needs to be his best at all times"

And therein lies the problem. You're asking a human to be inhuman and given this, you say your assessment isn't unfair? The heck it isn't. No one is capable of being their best at all times. No one. I can't believe anyone could type an expectation someone has to be their best at all times and not stop and realize how unreasonable and irrational they're being while typing that.

I'll gladly beat a dead horse here: he leads the series in all five statistical categories as well as offensive and defensive rating. He's doing it against the team that broke the all-time single season wins record.

The problem isn't with LeBron, it's absolutely irrational expectations for him. Even when he's not his best, he's the best player on the planet. He shouldn't be penalized for being better than everyone else and therefore needs to perform to his greatness every single night. That's frankly not possible. But his 'average' games are still better than anyone else puts out. He has down nights like everyone. He's HUMAN. Let's stop expecting more than that.

I'm going to let you take over. We are saying the same things. hah. Very similar post just now, just reading yours.

 

[lange10]

Being his best at all times, should be a line for everyone. Its a generic tagline for all. Being better than everyone at all times is inhuman. Everyone has a stamina capacity. You can not fault him with those outputs. You can fault his teammates/organization for putting a supporting cast behind him, the coach for calling the plays or designing the defenses, hell the refs, anyone other than him. He is too productive and efficient in this series to argue that he needs to be better. There are 75 other people or things that need to be done better before he needs to get better in this series.

You say things in absolutes, "he can't be careless with the ball" like he is not allowed to turn the ball over once! haha. Hell he is LeBron right! He should have a 50 pt (20 layups because he shouldn't take one jumper..and he better make ten for ten in FT's) and 20 and 8 stat line with 0 TO (He can't be careless with the ball). DAMNIT LeBron, Just be perfect. You are supposedly the best in the world. And everyone knows the best in the world is perfect! (This is a reaction to some of what your saying and a lot of what everyone else is insinuating)

I give up lol. You're misreading the angle I'm taking. Lebron is the best player in the world. At times he can play at a level that even surprises me considering I'm such a fan of his. I'm basically just stating the obvious that if the Cavs want to pull off this upset he has to play at that aforementioned ridiculous level of play. This doesn't mean I expect it, though.

 

[kyleslamb]

You're correct. Asking him to be perfect is perfectly impossible. I stand by this though, as good as he is and has been in this series what happened in the 4th quarter in game 4 when you are is good as he is cannot happen. Fair?

EDIT: I also want to double back to my expectations being called unfair. Perhaps they could be looked at as "expectations" but when I say things like "he can't be careless with the ball," I'm just expressing what I think is needed from him in order for the Cavs to win this series despite being severely outmatched by GS, IMO. Just because I think the Cavs NEED Lebron to play like that doesn't mean I expect it.

What happened in the 4th quarter of game four seemed perfectly natural. He rested only a total of two minutes out of 48, the game was EXTREMELY physical where Golden State was bumping cutters, hacking at the ball with nothing called and the game had been really fast up and down in the third quarter. Combine that with a high usage and it seemed pretty obvious that LeBron's performance was largely (if not entirely) related to fatigue.

I don't think the Cavs need him to play like that. When push comes to shove, they're more talented than Golden State (although Golden State is a better 'team'). They just need to play smart and play together and not rely wholly on ISO ball. They can beat Golden State without LeBron giving a superhman effort every night. Even in game four, it wasn't on LeBron they blew the game. The problem is the fatigue was not just on him but the whole team wore down.

 

[Burnsbros23]

Games 1-4 I'll go with Draymond, you can take Bron.

I agree going into last night Lebron had been average to sub par for his standards. Turning the ball over just looking bad really in moments.

But this statement.... Cmon.

 

[ihatepants]

Do people really think that Lebron has been playing poorly this finals? Dude is going to get another finals MVP stolen from him.

He's leading all players from both teams in GmSc by a good margin - with 120 through the five games. Kyrie is second at 101. Curry's leading the Warriors at 71.5. (Draymond was slightly ahead of him before he sat out game five).

 

[ihatepants]

Player            GmSc
LeBron James        119.9
Kyrie Irving        101.1
Stephen Curry        71.7
Klay Thompson        65.9
Andre Iguodala        57.1
Draymond Green        56.9
Tristan Thompson    52.9
Shaun Livingston    42
Harrison Barnes        41.3
Richard Jefferson    29.1
J.R. Smith        28.9
Leandro Barbosa        24.6
Kevin Love        19.7
Andrew Bogut        16.3
Festus Ezeli        6.5
Anderson Varejao    5.4
Ian Clark        4.9
Jordan McRae        3.7
Iman Shumpert        3.4
Timofey Mozgov        2.7
Matthew Dellavedova    2.1
James Jones        1.4
James Michael McAdoo    1.3
Dahntay Jones        0.4
Channing Frye        0.2
Brandon Rush        0
Marreese Speights      -1.4
Mo Williams           -2

Lebron actually has locked up the MVP being stolen from him. Curry would need to have an efficient 70 point game on Thursday to even try and catch up.

Since 1978 (modern box score), the only time two teammates had the highest GmSc in the finals and neither won MVP:

GmSc    Player        Finals
122.8    Julius Erving    1982
113.8    Andrew Toney    1982
107.7    Magic Johnson    1982

Magic won the award.

 

[UConn990411]

Do people really think that Lebron has been playing poorly this finals? Dude is going to get another finals MVP stolen from him.

He's leading all players from both teams in GmSc by a good margin - with 120 through the five games. Kyrie is second at 101. Curry's leading the Warriors at 71.5. (Draymond was slightly ahead of him before he sat out game five).

Haven't seen anyone say he's played poorly - only that he's been subpar by his (lofty) standards.

 

[aceboon]

I agree going into last night Lebron had been average to sub par for his standards. Turning the ball over just looking bad really in moments.

But this statement.... Cmon.

What I quoted was in regards to just defense, what do turnovers on offense have to do with playing defense? Is it really that inconceivable that the player who has come in 2nd 2 years in a row for DPOY and should have won it at least one of those years had a better defensive series games 1-4 than Bron? Have you looked at GSW's net rating this series when Green has played C?

 

[Dogdeacon]

I think the Finals MVP has to come from the winning team, anything else is counter-intuitive. But I debated with folks during the regular season about Curry being the best player in the world and opined that the finals would be a referendum on that. Granted Curry is likely still 85% healthy, but no question I think that LeBron has re-established his status as best in the game.
Seems like going forward there's more recognition that Curry's value is primarily offensive and then contingent upon his netherworldy 3pt shooting. Take even a little of that away and its difficult for him to dominate a game the way LeBron, Westbrook and Durant can.

 

[methodology]

What I quoted was in regards to just defense, what do turnovers on offense have to do with playing defense? Is it really that inconceivable that the player who has come in 2nd 2 years in a row for DPOY and should have won it at least one of those years had a better defensive series games 1-4 than Bron? Have you looked at GSW's net rating this series when Green has played C?

LeBron is averaging 2 blocks/game and 2.6 steals/game
Green is averaging 1.25 blocks/game and 1.75 steals/game

Draymond also has an elite defender in Klay and AI who immensely helps out his defense. LeBron has literally guarded 1-5 on the defensive end and has had to be in a constant helping position because the Warriors have so many weapons and LeBron is trying to pick up his teammates slack with getting beat on back cuts and slips.

If LeBron was in Draymonds position with the talent that GSW have he would be even a better defender. Its a lot easier to play defense on GSW when you have Klay and AI on your team. LeBron doesn't have that luxury on his team on the defensive end.

 

[methodology]

I think the Finals MVP has to come from the winning team, anything else is counter-intuitive. But I debated with folks during the regular season about Curry being the best player in the world and opined that the finals would be a referendum on that. Granted Curry is likely still 85% healthy, but no question I think that LeBron has re-established his status as best in the game.
Seems like going forward there's more recognition that Curry's value is primarily offensive and then contingent upon his netherworldy 3pt shooting. Take even a little of that away and its difficult for him to dominate a game the way LeBron, Westbrook and Durant can.

Curry is the best shooter and maybe offensive player in the game. When it comes to best basketball player (defense, rebounding, bball IQ, the whole package) its unquestionably LeBron. It really isn't even all that close when comparing the whole package of both player's games.

 

[Deepster]

Curry is the best shooter and maybe offensive player in the game. When it comes to best basketball player (defense, rebounding, bball IQ, the whole package) its unquestionably LeBron. It really isn't even all that close when comparing the whole package of both player's games.

I've watched Curry a ton the last couple months. I think Curry is clearly the best shooter in game and likely of all time. I don't think he's in a tier that some of the all time greats are in, regarding his overall "offensive game". In a clinching game, he can't will his team through any type of game like a Jordan or a Kobe or a Bird...or even as we saw last game a Lebron. You get him out on the break, in open spacing and the Warriors are flying all over the place? He's an assassin. In a half court, if you slow him/them down? He can't automatically impose what he wants to do...unless he starts draining 30 footers unconsciously. I'll also caveat that saying we don't know how hurt he really is. He might be more limited than he shows or lets on.

 

[kyleslamb]

Curry is the best shooter and maybe offensive player in the game. When it comes to best basketball player (defense, rebounding, bball IQ, the whole package) its unquestionably LeBron. It really isn't even all that close when comparing the whole package of both player's games.

Agreed. I think Klay is actually their best and most valuable player. Unlike Curry, when the going gets tough, usually Thompson is the guy that steps up and gets them baskets. Curry, when he's off, is usually really off for the rest of the night. Thompson gets aggressive and makes things happen when he's not shooting well. And his defense and court awareness is tremendous.

Curry makes people tune in, but it's Thompson, Green and Iguodala that make that team so successful.

 

[superjohn]

Agreed. I think Klay is actually their best and most valuable player. Unlike Curry, when the going gets tough, usually Thompson is the guy that steps up and gets them baskets. Curry, when he's off, is usually really off for the rest of the night. Thompson gets aggressive and makes things happen when he's not shooting well. And his defense and court awareness is tremendous.

Curry makes people tune in, but it's Thompson, Green and Iguodala that make that team so successful.

Just when I thought this thread couldn't get any dumber.

 

[UConn990411]

Agreed. I think Klay is actually their best and most valuable player. Unlike Curry, when the going gets tough, usually Thompson is the guy that steps up and gets them baskets. Curry, when he's off, is usually really off for the rest of the night. Thompson gets aggressive and makes things happen when he's not shooting well. And his defense and court awareness is tremendous.

Curry makes people tune in, but it's Thompson, Green and Iguodala that make that team so successful.

I'm not even that big of a Curry fan, but...

Hahahahahaha.

 

[mauconnfan]

Agreed. I think Klay is actually their best and most valuable player. Unlike Curry, when the going gets tough, usually Thompson is the guy that steps up and gets them baskets. Curry, when he's off, is usually really off for the rest of the night. Thompson gets aggressive and makes things happen when he's not shooting well. And his defense and court awareness is tremendous.

Curry makes people tune in, but it's Thompson, Green and Iguodala that make that team so successful.

Wow this is not very brilliant. Please look at this again and we'll give you a chance to redeem yourself. Or is the LeBron vs Curry thing a little rough on your bromance to not be bias?

 

[EBonz30]

"He needs to be his best at all times"

And therein lies the problem. You're asking a human to be inhuman and given this, you say your assessment isn't unfair? The heck it isn't. No one is capable of being their best at all times. No one. I can't believe anyone could type an expectation someone has to be their best at all times and not stop and realize how unreasonable and irrational they're being while typing that.

I'll gladly beat a dead horse here: he leads the series in all five statistical categories as well as offensive and defensive rating. He's doing it against the team that broke the all-time single season wins record.

The problem isn't with LeBron, it's absolutely irrational expectations for him. Even when he's not his best, he's the best player on the planet. He shouldn't be penalized for being better than everyone else and therefore needs to perform to his greatness every single night. That's frankly not possible. But his 'average' games are still better than anyone else puts out. He has down nights like everyone. He's HUMAN. Let's stop expecting more than that.

I don't think your understanding the expectations of LeBron....

I am rooting for the Cavs, I was rooting for OKC, I think a lot of people in general have put Curry way too high on pedestal, have people on this site and one or two of my buddies say Curry is better than LeBron, well that's obviously false, it's a non argument, and I hope people dropped that argument a couple of weeks ago...

But...

I believe LeBron is a top 5 player of all time and for the first 4 games of this series he didn't look like one, if you want to make excuses for him that's fine, but in reality his first 4 games was nothing like he showed last year in the finals, that is just a fact.

I don't think this series will necessary hurt his legacy no matter what happens, but I do think it will greatly increase his legacy if he somehow finds a way to steal and win this series, sometimes that what the top 3 or 5 greatest players in NBA history do, they steal games and series.

So back to my point, was LeBron playing below average for a great player the first 4 games of the series NO, but my expectations and I believe a lot people's are higher and they want to see him raise his game like he did in Game 5 and show the world he is one of the 3 or 4 or 5 greatest of all time.

 

[EBonz30]

Agreed. I think Klay is actually their best and most valuable player. Unlike Curry, when the going gets tough, usually Thompson is the guy that steps up and gets them baskets. Curry, when he's off, is usually really off for the rest of the night. Thompson gets aggressive and makes things happen when he's not shooting well. And his defense and court awareness is tremendous.

Curry makes people tune in, but it's Thompson, Green and Iguodala that make that team so successful.

I think your jumping the gun here a bit...

Obviously the player who has benefit the most in the playoffs from the playoffs as far as value is Klay Thompson (it's been his coming out party), but to say he is better than Curry is a stretch. Has he been more important and better in certain spots in the playoffs YES, but we cannot forget Curry's overall brilliance throughout his career, he did put up one of the greatest regular season's in NBA history, and we have to remember Klay Thompson offensively is a one dimensional player who just now developing some other offensive traits like being able to create his own shot.

Curry can do everything offensively, everything....

 

[Dogbreath2U]

I don't think your understanding the expectations of LeBron....

I am rooting for the Cavs, I was rooting for OKC, I think a lot of people in general have put Curry way too high on pedestal, have people on this site and one or two of my buddies say Curry is better than LeBron, well that's obviously false, it's a non argument, and I hope people dropped that argument a couple of weeks ago...

But...

I believe LeBron is a top 5 player of all time and for the first 4 games of this series he didn't look like one, if you want to make excuses for him that's fine, but in reality his first 4 games was nothing like he showed last year in the finals, that is just a fact.

I don't think this series will necessary hurt his legacy no matter what happens, but I do think it will greatly increase his legacy if he somehow finds a way to steal and win this series, sometimes that what the top 3 or 5 greatest players in NBA history do, they steal games and series.

So back to my point, was LeBron playing below average for a great player the first 4 games of the series NO, but my expectations and I believe a lot people's are higher and they want to see him raise his game like he did in Game 5 and show the world he is one of the 3 or 4 or 5 greatest of all time.

If Lebron were able to bring the Cavs back to win the title at this point, it might be the single greatest performance by a superstar in the sense that no team has ever come back down 3-1 in the finals, correct? This is very unlikely to occur no matter how well Lebron plays, but it would be great drama and and an all-time performance to be sure if it were somehow to happen. I just don't think it's something that can reasonably be expected to happen.

 

[Burnsbros23]

What I quoted was in regards to just defense, what do turnovers on offense have to do with playing defense? Is it really that inconceivable that the player who has come in 2nd 2 years in a row for DPOY and should have won it at least one of those years had a better defensive series games 1-4 than Bron? Have you looked at GSW's net rating this series when Green has played C?

I was talking about Lebron turning the ball over. I didn't know you were referring just too defense. that is much closer.

 

[EBonz30]

If Lebron were able to bring the Cavs back to win the title at this point, it might be the single greatest performance by a superstar in the sense that no team has ever come back down 3-1 in the finals, correct? This is very unlikely to occur no matter how well Lebron plays, but it would be great drama and and an all-time performance to be sure if it were somehow to happen. I just don't think it's something that can reasonably be expected to happen.

Agreed, reason why I am watching, want to see true greatness!

I think it would also takeaway the sour taste everyone has in their mouth from the Dallas Maverick series...

He will never be better than Jordan but I think he has the opportunity to truly cement himself as a top 5 or 3 player of all time and again that's why the first 4 games of the series he was below my expectations especially in Game 2 and the fourth quarter of Game 4.

Going into the series with knowing the Warriors were better I thought the way LeBron and the Cavs could win is if they keep the game close LeBron could seal it off in the last few mins of the game that's why game 4 left a nasty taste in my mouth.

Like I said before Game 5, LeBron still has an opportunity to turn it around and show is true greatness, he obviously did that in Game 5, does he have 2 more in him?

 

[kyleslamb]

Just when I thought this thread couldn't get any dumber.

Says the people that are arguing LeBron isn't having a great series when he leads the series in every major statistical category.

Anyhow, simmer down. It's just a thought for discussion. It's not really that out there when you consider everything Thompson does on both ends of the floor. As I said in the previous post, Van Gundy suggested the same thing. It's just a thought.

Curry is the most talented offensive player in the league. That's beyond dispute. But at times, especially the second half of the season, Thompson has been their best player and certainly does more on both ends of the floor combined. He's bailed them out in this postseason.

 

[joober jones]

I still wish Hilton could've hung on with GS. I like him over Speights, even without UConn goggles.