OT Baseball HOF hypocrisy

[Doctor Hoop]

Don't get me started on Harold Baines while Dwight Evans had more HR than any AL player in the 80s and had 8 gold gloves playing the toughest RF in baseball. And he's on the outside looking in.

Evans should be in. Nobody ran on that arm, probably second only to Clemente

 

[The Viking]

Either let them all in or leave them all out. I think it is safe to say the use was rampant in that era. The only players I would be absolutely shocked about not being clean are Derek Jeter and Chipper Jones.

I mean Jeter had an "interesting" season in 2009 when he was 35 if you look at his offensive and defensive stats at a time he had appeared to be taking a natural slide. It ended up being his second largest WAR year.

Did he dabble for one year to try to get one more ring before his career would wind down? Who knows. (He did get the ring).

I think with Ortiz vs the others who weren't included this go-around, it helped his name wasn't smeared all over labs and courtrooms like Bonds, Sheffield and Clemens were. He was on that 03 test as a positive or false positive at a time that there was no punishment for it and then tested clean for 14 years. And that was it.
Plus maybe its fitting he should be put in separate from the others because he actually performed like a HOF in the clutch. Not sure we can say the same of the others.

As I said earlier, they're all going to get it in, it just won't be the writers who are doing it - which is fine. The writers shouldn't be the only collection to advance these ballplayers to the HOF.

 

[Lynyrd]

Bonds should be excluded from contention by the mere fact that he allowed Sid Bream with a bum knee to score the game winning run from 2nd on a line drive to left that was right to him … my grandmother could have thrown him out and she has no arms

 

[superjohn]

Bonds should be excluded from contention by the mere fact that he allowed Sid Bream with a bum knee to score the game winning run from 2nd on a line drive to left that was right to him … my grandmother could have thrown him out and she has no arms

Sorry about your grandmother.

 

[The Viking]

Bonds should be excluded from contention by the mere fact that he allowed Sid Bream with a bum knee to score the game winning run from 2nd on a line drive to left that was right to him … my grandmother could have thrown him out and she has no arms

I saw the E60 on Bonds last night. Van Slyke was telling him to play in closer to home but Bonds was a stubborn SOB and refused.
That's one of the reasons they showed Van Slyke just sitting in CF stunned after that hit.

 

[BlueMAB]

I get what you’re saying but integrity, character and sportsmanship are part of the criteria as set forth in the rules. Voters cast ballots based on that criteria.

Integrity is literally one of the voting criteria, they listed it off during the announcement tonight.

Give Binds and Clemens the Pete Rose treatment. Put them in after they're dead so they can't monetize their cheating.

Gaylord Perry (class of 1991) literally wrote the book on cheating in 1974. He's still alive

Papi, Clemens, Bonds...they all belong in the HOF

 

[nomar]

You can pretend all you want but we all know Ortiz tested positive in '03. It shouldn't matter and I'm glad he got in but it's a joke Bonds, Clemens, and ARod didn't get in. Nobody's success is all due to steroids, all these guys who did them were already great, steroids make you greater.

Ortiz is well liked and good for baseball, Manfred likes him for pr.

For what? What did he test positive for? Any idea? Any proof?

I agree re those other players.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Evans should be in. Nobody ran on that arm, probably second only to Clemente

Loved the RF's with the cannons. Too young for Clemente but Winfield, Evans, Dawson, Ichiro, Jesse Barfield and even Judge right now.
Few things more fun than a runner on first being held on first and batter smacks one to right field. Base runner takes 3 or 4 hard steps towards second and then checks it up because they know, and everyone knows, they aren't even trying for 3rd base on the RF's arm.

 

[superjohn]

For what? What did he test positive for? Any idea? Any proof?

I agree re those other players.

You said in another post Sammy Sosa doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.

Sosa tested positive in 2003 just like Ortiz and has lied about not taking steroids just like Ortiz.

They have the same career trajectory and are both no doubt Hall of Famers based on #'s.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

The difference is simple. The media like Ortiz because he was a great media guy. They hated Bonds and were so-so on Clemens. There is no rational way to defend voting for Big P.E.D. and not voting for Bonds or Clemens. Hell, why not A-Rod as well?

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Loved the RF's with the cannons. Too young for Clemente but Winfield, Evans, Dawson, Ichiro, Jesse Barfield and even Judge right now.
Few things more fun than a runner on first being held on first and batter smacks one to right field. Base runner takes 3 or 4 hard steps towards second and then checks it up because they know, and everyone knows, they aren't even trying for 3rd base on the RF's arm.

And you left out one of the best RF arms of all-time, Vlad the Impaler.

 

[ihatepants]

Bonds and Clemens are just as "guilty" of PED use as Papi, but neither are in because they were unpopular (and terrible terrible people) and regularly didn't want to talk to the media, unlike Papi who was always happy to talk to them and give them quotes/soundbites. The problem with Hall of Fame voting is that, as usual, some of the individual BBWAA members made it about them instead of about the sport.

Whether he was positive in the 2003 test is anyones guess. With that said he was tested from 2004 to 2016 and didn't test positive once. He was awesome during those years, especially when it mattered most. If you want to say he found a way to avoid testing positive, then everyone who played could be considered possible steroid users. He's one of 4 guys all-time with 3 World Series and 500 home runs. Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle and Reggie Jackson are the other 3.

The thing about ARod is that he didn’t fail a test outside of the 2003 test, either. His punishment was the result of a witch hunt orchestrated by Selig, who wanted to find a high profile player to make an example of. ARod's punishment was a flagrant violation of the JDA.

He never had an official positive test, so he never followed the standard suspension pattern, which at the time started at 50 games. Instead, he was slapped with a 211 game suspension because Selig personally hated ARod and wanted to help do the Yankees a favor and help them avoid paying ARod his huge contract for that year. Michael Weiner also rolled over on the suspension and didn't back his own union constituent.

The whole Biogenesis thing surrounding ARod was such a huge sham:

• MLB's senior vice president for investigations, Dan Mullin, seduced a Biogenesis nurse for information on ARod
• MLB purchased Biogenesis documents that were known to be stolen; Florida investigators warned MLB to stay away from them. In purchasing those stolen documents, MLB committed obstruction of justice and and caused the Florida and federal investigations against Bosch and his clinic to fall apart
• MLB spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to purchase additional evidence, which anyone can tell you isn't exactly a reputable way of doing business
• MLB was blackmailing Anthony Bosch; they ensured his cooperation by saying they'd hand over everything they have to the feds, and stop paying his legal bills, if he didn't say what he did about ARod

 

[UncleSpliff]

I found 2 interesting items, that may sway some minds here. Or maybe not.

First, there’s this story, on Ortiz out-homering ARod and Griffey Jr. during a home run derby when he was in A ball, his 1st pro year. That was 1996.
Big Papi stole derby spotlight with Timber Rattlers

Second, if you look at his career stats his HR per AB ratio is between 1 every 15 and 1 every 20 for his entire career, including the last two years with the Twins in ‘01 and ‘02. There was no spike in production.
David Ortiz Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Plus, the guy hit .455 in World Series games, including .688 in 2013.

You can cherry pick seasons to fit your agenda but if you take his entire tenure in Minnesota from day 1 until he left his HR / AB was 1/25.46… in Boston it was 1/14.83 and even if you want to cherry pick and include those last 2 years in Minn and say he never went under 1/20…. there’s a MASSIVE difference between homering once ever 15 AB or once every 20. That’s basically going from a mediocre MLB slugger to some of the top HR hitters of all time. A lot of guys you’ve probably never heard of or forgotten years ago hit hrs every 20 AB but to do it every 15 is special. To say there was no spike in production going from 1/20 down to 1/15 is laughable.

Barry Bonds - 1/12.9
Ted Williams - 1/14.79
David Ortiz - 1/14.83 (BOS only)
Mickey Mantle - 1/15.12

Anthony Rizzo - 1/20.37
Todd Frazier - 1/20.15
Joey Votto - 1/20.31
Justin Upton - 1/20.60
Roughned Odor - 1/21.61

Career Leaders &amp Records for AB per HR | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[mauconnfan]

What’s hilarious is how many times did ARod test positive, Bonds test positive? How many other years did they play that they didn’t? I mean there were so many ways players were getting around the tests it was rampant look at the players who never got caught that were obvious. So Papi only did it in 2003 then stopped lol.

He’s in good for Sox fans but it’s just wrong for guys like ARod and Bonds who were better baseball players period. It’s ok for Papi and Bagwell because writers liked them but not for others who deserve to be in? Not a good day for baseball yesterday I will end it there. Sox fans have at it Im entertained.

Nice win Huskies let’s keep it going!

 

[UncleSpliff]

What’s hilarious is how many times did ARod test positive, Bonds test positive? How many other years did they play that they didn’t? I mean there were so many ways players were getting around the tests it was rampant look at the players who never got caught that were obvious. So Papi only did it in 2003 then stopped lol.

He’s in good for Sox fans but it’s just wrong for guys like ARod and Bonds who were better baseball players period. It’s ok for Papi and Bagwell because writers liked them but not for others who deserve to be in? Not a good day for baseball yesterday I will end it there. Sox fans have at it Im entertained.

Nice win Huskies let’s keep it going!

MLB didn’t even test for HGH and it’s derivatives until 2014. That’s the drug most of them did after they started testing for anabolics in the early 2000s. Also MLBs testing policy is junior varsity compared to USADA (the gold standard for doping testing used by Olympics / UFC / Boxing etc). That’s why so many fighters get dinged for doping and so few baseball players do.

 

[Chin Diesel]

And you left out one of the best RF arms of all-time, Vlad the Impaler.

I knew I was missing a few and Vlad was one of my favorites. Trust me the number of times I have combined Dawson and Guerrero in to one player when I think of player careers is plentiful. No Gold Gloves for Vlad even though he had a cannon for an arm.

 

[Scoe]

I wouldn't put Baines in. Him being in by a hand picked veteran committee by Reinsdorf shouldn't open flood gates for everyone else.
Jeter, even tough he was a joke at the end, won 5 Gold Gloves and is 6th all time in hits. Sheffield is nowhere near that level. Neither is Mitchell.
If you are getting in with no MVP's you better be historically good at something and have significant post season street cred.

Gary Sheffield Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Gary Sheffield. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

The numbers are good enough for me.

 

[nomar]

You said in another post Sammy Sosa doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.

Sosa tested positive in 2003 just like Ortiz and has lied about not taking steroids just like Ortiz.

They have the same career trajectory and are both no doubt Hall of Famers based on #'s.

Beyond the fact that Sosa's body (and head) completely changed, that at age 29 he started putting up video game stats (forget Papi's allegedly suspicious improvement -- this dude put up 66-63-50-64!!!), that he pretended not to be able speak English when called before Congress, that he told Jeremy Schaap that he "did what he had to do," and that he got caught with a corked bat, they're exactly the same.

And you didn't answer my question. I'm curious. You said Ortiz took steroids. Which steroids? Be specific. What is your source, besides your own ass?

 

[Chin Diesel]

Gary Sheffield Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Gary Sheffield. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

The numbers are good enough for me.

That's fine. I'm not bringing protestors to Coopestown with signs if he gets in. I just wouldn't do it.

 

[superjohn]

Beyond the fact that Sosa's body (and head) completely changed, that at age 29 he started putting up video game stats (forget Papi's allegedly suspicious improvement -- this dude put up 66-63-50-64!!!), that he pretended not to be able speak English when called before Congress, that he told Jeremy Schaap that he "did what he had to do," and that he got caught with a corked bat, they're exactly the same.

And you didn't answer my question. I'm curious. You said Ortiz took steroids. Which steroids? Be specific. What is your source, besides your own ass?

I don't know what cycle Ortiz or Sosa were on but I know they were both on the '03 list that was supposed to be kept quiet and one guy is paying the price for it and the other isn't. You're a child if you think you can tell who took steroids and who didn't just by looking at them. Sosa hit 33 homers at 24 years old. They had very similar trajectories but Sosa proved he was a big time MLB homerun hitter earlier than Ortiz. I couldn't stand Sosa but there is no rationale for keeping one guy out and putting one guy in when they both have no doubt Hall of Fame #'s and both have the same steroid stain. This isn't supposed to be a popularity contest.

You also say McGwire doesn't belong. He was the best homerun hitter in MLB the day he stepped into major league baseball. He was hitting mammoth tape measure shots right away and hit 49 his rookie year, only missing 50 for the birth of his kid. He doesn't get in because he's one of the only people who eventually told the truth?

The hypocrisy is just stunning from MLB. Condone it...make all that money off of it...then punish the guys that made you all that money and saved the sport. Most of the league was doing it from the minor leaguers fighting for a contract to the guys on small contracts fighting for a bigger contract to the best players in the sport. Yet we're going to pin all of this on the creme de la creme, the best players ever in the sport while lesser players get a free pass and get into the Hall. The hypocrisy from the people who run MLB, down to the writers, and all the way down to the fans who will argue their favorite guy deserves it while others don't is just stunning.

 

[Palatine]

Rice was NOT a product of Fenway. He was one of the strongest guys in the league. I shook his hand, and his hand made my hand look like something from a doll. His hands were huge, The guy was the hulk. The thing about Fenway is that it giveth and taketh away. Line shots that would be homers in other parks are turned into doubles and sometimes singles by the green monster.

Dwight Evans was one of the best defensive outfields of his time. We know about his arm and the assists from the outfield, and we know about his 8 gold gloves, The Hall just does reward defense the way it should. BTW, the guy was a base on balls machine. He was 29th all time. Just head of Tris Speaker and just behind Hank Aaron and Jef Bagwell. Most guys on the "walk" list were feared hitters who pitchers pitched around. Evans wasn't one of those, he just had a world class eye. Unfortunately that is another area under appreciated by HoF voters.

 

[ColchVEGAS]

Yeah Pedroia was DEFINITELY juicing. That guy was HUGE!!

You are right he is another one that I would be shocked about. My point was there are so few players that played in that era you could look at and say "yup they are clean for sure."

With that said you do know that not all steroids put mass on? They can help with healing quicker and lean muscle building. Again I would be shocked to hear Pedroia was dirty, but I think there are a ton of players that were using and did not have their head size and mass increase massively so they were able to slide by without being questioned.

MLB wanted the players using because it was "good" for the product. Designer steroids are still being churned out of factories and available over the counter before they are discovered and put on the banned list. It is a game of cat and mouse and the drug creators will always be ahead of the curve slightly.

 

[Kolumbo]

Good for Papi.

Well deserved. Never tested positive in any test. Even commish said the leaked names had multiple errors in it.

The true hypocrisy is keeping Schilling out.

The run in Arizona with the Big Unit were as good of a 1-2 punch baseball has seen.


11-2 post season record.

Give Binds and Clemens the Pete Rose treatment. Put them in after they're dead so they can't monetize their cheating.

In this day and age, anything can be monetized. Just need the right marketing expertise. I mean if Bonds et al can't come up with a way to shove it back in the face of the HOF, they just aren't trying. They can build their own hall of greatness, if they'd like, and it would be grand. Perhaps a large indoor/outdoor brewery/steakhouse in Florida or Southern Cal. If you build it, they will come.

 

[Scoe]

 

[UCfor3]

Bonds and Clemens are just as "guilty" of PED use as Papi, but neither are in because they were unpopular (and terrible terrible people) and regularly didn't want to talk to the media, unlike Papi who was always happy to talk to them and give them quotes/soundbites. The problem with Hall of Fame voting is that, as usual, some of the individual BBWAA members made it about them instead of about the sport.



The thing about ARod is that he didn’t fail a test outside of the 2003 test, either. His punishment was the result of a witch hunt orchestrated by Selig, who wanted to find a high profile player to make an example of. ARod's punishment was a flagrant violation of the JDA.

He never had an official positive test, so he never followed the standard suspension pattern, which at the time started at 50 games. Instead, he was slapped with a 211 game suspension because Selig personally hated ARod and wanted to help do the Yankees a favor and help them avoid paying ARod his huge contract for that year. Michael Weiner also rolled over on the suspension and didn't back his own union constituent.

The whole Biogenesis thing surrounding ARod was such a huge sham:

• MLB's senior vice president for investigations, Dan Mullin, seduced a Biogenesis nurse for information on ARod
• MLB purchased Biogenesis documents that were known to be stolen; Florida investigators warned MLB to stay away from them. In purchasing those stolen documents, MLB committed obstruction of justice and and caused the Florida and federal investigations against Bosch and his clinic to fall apart
• MLB spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to purchase additional evidence, which anyone can tell you isn't exactly a reputable way of doing business
• MLB was blackmailing Anthony Bosch; they ensured his cooperation by saying they'd hand over everything they have to the feds, and stop paying his legal bills, if he didn't say what he did about ARod

It's more than popularity but that doesn't fit your narrative. Not my words but the words of Tim Kirkjian on ESPN and most everybody other than Rob Parker on MLB Network and he historically hates everything Boston. Even Rob Manferd put Ortiz in a different category of Manny, ARod, Bonds, etc...signifying to voters that whatever he tested for in 2003 wasn't as bad or the same as some of the others. Again, Tim Kirkjians words not mine this morning on Sportscenter. Kirkjian said basically that the commissioner signaled to the voters that he was cleared. Good enough for Kirkjian and the voters. To say Ortiz history with enhancers is the same as Bonds and Clemens is an awful and inaccurate take. We will never know everyone who used steroids and how much. Nobody is considered innocent in my book. Not even Griffey Jr, Jeter, etc...There are degrees and circumstances though where some of it is egregious with some pretty damning evidence where you can't look the other way and some of it is not close to that level. Pudge, Bagwell, Piazza all in too cuz they were nice? Were Sosa, Palmiero, jerks?