OT Baseball HOF hypocrisy

[Hans Sprungfeld]

An observation - in threads like this you can really ID the Yankee fans and the Red Sox fans.

Clemens offers a two-fer.

 

[StllH8L8ner]

For those of us of a certain age, the HOF was reserved for greatness. They lost me at Harold Baines.

I’d like this twice if I could. It’s becoming the Hall of Good.

I think Papi being a likeable guy helped his cause. Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, etc were notorious d-bags. Kinda like Laettner…

 

[The Viking]

Don't get me started on Harold Baines while Dwight Evans had more HR than any AL player in the 80s and had 8 gold gloves playing the toughest RF in baseball. And he's on the outside looking in.

 

[EnochRoot]

Don't get me started on Harold Baines while Dwight Evans had more HR than any AL player in the 80s and had 8 gold gloves playing the toughest RF in baseball. And he's on the outside looking in.

It's sort of a joke that Baines is in the HOF, but specific to the BoSox: Evans deserved the nod before Jim Rice did.

 

[The Viking]

Regarding the others, they'll get in - they'll just have to wait a tad bit longer:

Schilling, Bonds and Clemens could all still be voted into the Hall of Fame in December by the Today's Game Committee, which considers players who made their mark from 1988 to the present and didn't get more than 75% on the baseball writers' ballots.

 

[ColchVEGAS]

Either let them all in or leave them all out. I think it is safe to say the use was rampant in that era. The only players I would be absolutely shocked about not being clean are Derek Jeter and Chipper Jones.

 

[superjohn]

This is very confusing. Precedent for whom?

Are there voters out there saying, "I believe he juiced and I'm voting for him anyway"? If there were a lot of those people then Bonds would be in.

I doubt it. I think a lot of people think the "evidence" against this guy is weak. Because it is. I really wonder what the explanation is for why this guy never tested positive through MLB's testing system? Was he having Pedro piss for him?

And while, sure, his career took off in Boston, his career trajectory looks pretty similar to any other superstar's: he was excellent in the minors, had an OPS between .799 and .839 each year in Minnesota, and then got progressively better in his mid-20s.

And this is what he looked like as a rookie:

Hardly McGwire on the '87 A's or Bonds in Pittsburgh. Ortiz was always a stocky guy.

All because of some leaked list from 2003 with no provenance, which has been discredited by MLB. Nobody even knows what he (or the other 102 players) allegedly tested positive for: some of the "positives" included OTC stuff and/or stuff that wasn't prohibited. These are all facts.

Do I know for a fact he never used PEDs? Of course not. I can't prove a negative. Do I think it's highly unlikely that his success was due to PEDs? Yes. The guy was hitting bombs in his late 30s, and was getting tested every 5 seconds. Negative over and over and over again.

You can pretend all you want but we all know Ortiz tested positive in '03. It shouldn't matter and I'm glad he got in but it's a joke Bonds, Clemens, and ARod didn't get in. Nobody's success is all due to steroids, all these guys who did them were already great, steroids make you greater.

Ortiz is well liked and good for baseball, Manfred likes him for pr.

 

[uconngb]

Either let them all in or leave them all out. I think it is safe to say the use was rampant in that era. The only players I would be absolutely shocked about not being clean are Derek Jeter and Chipper Jones.

Yeah Pedroia was DEFINITELY juicing. That guy was HUGE!!

 

[Spaceman213J]

I was just reading an article about 'Dewey' and how by today's metrics he's the player most deserving outside of the 'steroid' tainted players to be in the HOF.

 

[Doctor Hoop]

I found 2 interesting items, that may sway some minds here. Or maybe not.

First, there’s this story, on Ortiz out-homering ARod and Griffey Jr. during a home run derby when he was in A ball, his 1st pro year. That was 1996.
Big Papi stole derby spotlight with Timber Rattlers

Second, if you look at his career stats his HR per AB ratio is between 1 every 15 and 1 every 20 for his entire career, including the last two years with the Twins in ‘01 and ‘02. There was no spike in production.
David Ortiz Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Plus, the guy hit .455 in World Series games, including .688 in 2013.

 

[EnochRoot]

Either let them all in or leave them all out. I think it is safe to say the use was rampant in that era. The only players I would be absolutely shocked about not being clean are Derek Jeter and Chipper Jones.

Agreed. I'd like to think Ortiz sees the forest through the trees and makes statements along these lines. He will have a bully pulpit to address the elephant(s) in the room. Whether or not he chooses to engage it remains to be seen.

I was just reading an article about 'Dewey' and how by today's metrics he's the player most deserving outside of the 'steroid' tainted players to be in the HOF.

When you get a chance, can you link it?

You know, he was in the midst of a career year during the '81 season. The MLB strike did him no favors.

 

[uconngb]

I found 2 interesting items, that may sway some minds here. Or maybe not.

First, there’s this story, on Ortiz out-homering ARod and Griffey Jr. during a home run derby when he was in A ball, his 1st pro year.

Nothing will ever sway the minds of Yankee fans about Ortiz. They just can’t let 2004 go. They just assume he cheated even though it’s never been proven.

It’s the same fascination they have with “deflategate”. But they don’t acknowledge that with “properly inflated balls” the Pats outscored the Colts 28-0 in the 2nd half of that game.

When facts don’t work for you, you try and make up something that does. It’s cute.

 

[Chin Diesel]

It's sort of a joke that Baines is in the HOF, but specific to the BoSox: Evans deserved the nod before Jim Rice did.

Nah. Rice had an MVP and five other top 5 MVP seasons.

Dewey had a rocket for an arm and had defend a much harder position at Fenway but Rice was a no brainer.

 

[EnochRoot]

I found 2 interesting items, that may sway some minds here. Or maybe not.

First, there’s this story, on Ortiz out-homering ARod and Griffey Jr. during a home run derby when he was in A ball, his 1st pro year.

I saw that the other day. Yet Seattle gave up on him in a PTBNL deal involving Dave Hollins. I have no problem with Ortiz in the HOF. But they need to finish the sentence and enshrine some of the far more deserving players.

 

[EnochRoot]

Nah. Rice had an MVP and five other top 5 MVP seasons.

Dewey had a rocket for an arm and had defend a much harder position at Fenway but Rice was a no brainer.

Rice was a product of Fenway Park. But yeah, he was fun to watch.

 

[Doctor Hoop]

Don't get me started on Harold Baines while Dwight Evans had more HR than any AL player in the 80s and had 8 gold gloves playing the toughest RF in baseball. And he's on the outside looking in.

Evans should be in. Nobody ran on that arm, probably second only to Clemente

 

[The Viking]

Either let them all in or leave them all out. I think it is safe to say the use was rampant in that era. The only players I would be absolutely shocked about not being clean are Derek Jeter and Chipper Jones.

I mean Jeter had an "interesting" season in 2009 when he was 35 if you look at his offensive and defensive stats at a time he had appeared to be taking a natural slide. It ended up being his second largest WAR year.

Did he dabble for one year to try to get one more ring before his career would wind down? Who knows. (He did get the ring).

I think with Ortiz vs the others who weren't included this go-around, it helped his name wasn't smeared all over labs and courtrooms like Bonds, Sheffield and Clemens were. He was on that 03 test as a positive or false positive at a time that there was no punishment for it and then tested clean for 14 years. And that was it.
Plus maybe its fitting he should be put in separate from the others because he actually performed like a HOF in the clutch. Not sure we can say the same of the others.

As I said earlier, they're all going to get it in, it just won't be the writers who are doing it - which is fine. The writers shouldn't be the only collection to advance these ballplayers to the HOF.

 

[Lynyrd]

Bonds should be excluded from contention by the mere fact that he allowed Sid Bream with a bum knee to score the game winning run from 2nd on a line drive to left that was right to him … my grandmother could have thrown him out and she has no arms

 

[superjohn]

Bonds should be excluded from contention by the mere fact that he allowed Sid Bream with a bum knee to score the game winning run from 2nd on a line drive to left that was right to him … my grandmother could have thrown him out and she has no arms

Sorry about your grandmother.

 

[The Viking]

Bonds should be excluded from contention by the mere fact that he allowed Sid Bream with a bum knee to score the game winning run from 2nd on a line drive to left that was right to him … my grandmother could have thrown him out and she has no arms

I saw the E60 on Bonds last night. Van Slyke was telling him to play in closer to home but Bonds was a stubborn SOB and refused.
That's one of the reasons they showed Van Slyke just sitting in CF stunned after that hit.

 

[BlueMAB]

I get what you’re saying but integrity, character and sportsmanship are part of the criteria as set forth in the rules. Voters cast ballots based on that criteria.

Integrity is literally one of the voting criteria, they listed it off during the announcement tonight.

Give Binds and Clemens the Pete Rose treatment. Put them in after they're dead so they can't monetize their cheating.

Gaylord Perry (class of 1991) literally wrote the book on cheating in 1974. He's still alive

Papi, Clemens, Bonds...they all belong in the HOF

 

[nomar]

You can pretend all you want but we all know Ortiz tested positive in '03. It shouldn't matter and I'm glad he got in but it's a joke Bonds, Clemens, and ARod didn't get in. Nobody's success is all due to steroids, all these guys who did them were already great, steroids make you greater.

Ortiz is well liked and good for baseball, Manfred likes him for pr.

For what? What did he test positive for? Any idea? Any proof?

I agree re those other players.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Evans should be in. Nobody ran on that arm, probably second only to Clemente

Loved the RF's with the cannons. Too young for Clemente but Winfield, Evans, Dawson, Ichiro, Jesse Barfield and even Judge right now.
Few things more fun than a runner on first being held on first and batter smacks one to right field. Base runner takes 3 or 4 hard steps towards second and then checks it up because they know, and everyone knows, they aren't even trying for 3rd base on the RF's arm.

 

[superjohn]

For what? What did he test positive for? Any idea? Any proof?

I agree re those other players.

You said in another post Sammy Sosa doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.

Sosa tested positive in 2003 just like Ortiz and has lied about not taking steroids just like Ortiz.

They have the same career trajectory and are both no doubt Hall of Famers based on #'s.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

The difference is simple. The media like Ortiz because he was a great media guy. They hated Bonds and were so-so on Clemens. There is no rational way to defend voting for Big P.E.D. and not voting for Bonds or Clemens. Hell, why not A-Rod as well?

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Loved the RF's with the cannons. Too young for Clemente but Winfield, Evans, Dawson, Ichiro, Jesse Barfield and even Judge right now.
Few things more fun than a runner on first being held on first and batter smacks one to right field. Base runner takes 3 or 4 hard steps towards second and then checks it up because they know, and everyone knows, they aren't even trying for 3rd base on the RF's arm.

And you left out one of the best RF arms of all-time, Vlad the Impaler.

 

[ihatepants]

Bonds and Clemens are just as "guilty" of PED use as Papi, but neither are in because they were unpopular (and terrible terrible people) and regularly didn't want to talk to the media, unlike Papi who was always happy to talk to them and give them quotes/soundbites. The problem with Hall of Fame voting is that, as usual, some of the individual BBWAA members made it about them instead of about the sport.

Whether he was positive in the 2003 test is anyones guess. With that said he was tested from 2004 to 2016 and didn't test positive once. He was awesome during those years, especially when it mattered most. If you want to say he found a way to avoid testing positive, then everyone who played could be considered possible steroid users. He's one of 4 guys all-time with 3 World Series and 500 home runs. Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle and Reggie Jackson are the other 3.

The thing about ARod is that he didn’t fail a test outside of the 2003 test, either. His punishment was the result of a witch hunt orchestrated by Selig, who wanted to find a high profile player to make an example of. ARod's punishment was a flagrant violation of the JDA.

He never had an official positive test, so he never followed the standard suspension pattern, which at the time started at 50 games. Instead, he was slapped with a 211 game suspension because Selig personally hated ARod and wanted to help do the Yankees a favor and help them avoid paying ARod his huge contract for that year. Michael Weiner also rolled over on the suspension and didn't back his own union constituent.

The whole Biogenesis thing surrounding ARod was such a huge sham:

• MLB's senior vice president for investigations, Dan Mullin, seduced a Biogenesis nurse for information on ARod
• MLB purchased Biogenesis documents that were known to be stolen; Florida investigators warned MLB to stay away from them. In purchasing those stolen documents, MLB committed obstruction of justice and and caused the Florida and federal investigations against Bosch and his clinic to fall apart
• MLB spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to purchase additional evidence, which anyone can tell you isn't exactly a reputable way of doing business
• MLB was blackmailing Anthony Bosch; they ensured his cooperation by saying they'd hand over everything they have to the feds, and stop paying his legal bills, if he didn't say what he did about ARod

 

[UncleSpliff]

I found 2 interesting items, that may sway some minds here. Or maybe not.

First, there’s this story, on Ortiz out-homering ARod and Griffey Jr. during a home run derby when he was in A ball, his 1st pro year. That was 1996.
Big Papi stole derby spotlight with Timber Rattlers

Second, if you look at his career stats his HR per AB ratio is between 1 every 15 and 1 every 20 for his entire career, including the last two years with the Twins in ‘01 and ‘02. There was no spike in production.
David Ortiz Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Plus, the guy hit .455 in World Series games, including .688 in 2013.

You can cherry pick seasons to fit your agenda but if you take his entire tenure in Minnesota from day 1 until he left his HR / AB was 1/25.46… in Boston it was 1/14.83 and even if you want to cherry pick and include those last 2 years in Minn and say he never went under 1/20…. there’s a MASSIVE difference between homering once ever 15 AB or once every 20. That’s basically going from a mediocre MLB slugger to some of the top HR hitters of all time. A lot of guys you’ve probably never heard of or forgotten years ago hit hrs every 20 AB but to do it every 15 is special. To say there was no spike in production going from 1/20 down to 1/15 is laughable.

Barry Bonds - 1/12.9
Ted Williams - 1/14.79
David Ortiz - 1/14.83 (BOS only)
Mickey Mantle - 1/15.12

Anthony Rizzo - 1/20.37
Todd Frazier - 1/20.15
Joey Votto - 1/20.31
Justin Upton - 1/20.60
Roughned Odor - 1/21.61

Career Leaders &amp Records for AB per HR | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[mauconnfan]

What’s hilarious is how many times did ARod test positive, Bonds test positive? How many other years did they play that they didn’t? I mean there were so many ways players were getting around the tests it was rampant look at the players who never got caught that were obvious. So Papi only did it in 2003 then stopped lol.

He’s in good for Sox fans but it’s just wrong for guys like ARod and Bonds who were better baseball players period. It’s ok for Papi and Bagwell because writers liked them but not for others who deserve to be in? Not a good day for baseball yesterday I will end it there. Sox fans have at it Im entertained.

Nice win Huskies let’s keep it going!

 

[UncleSpliff]

What’s hilarious is how many times did ARod test positive, Bonds test positive? How many other years did they play that they didn’t? I mean there were so many ways players were getting around the tests it was rampant look at the players who never got caught that were obvious. So Papi only did it in 2003 then stopped lol.

He’s in good for Sox fans but it’s just wrong for guys like ARod and Bonds who were better baseball players period. It’s ok for Papi and Bagwell because writers liked them but not for others who deserve to be in? Not a good day for baseball yesterday I will end it there. Sox fans have at it Im entertained.

Nice win Huskies let’s keep it going!

MLB didn’t even test for HGH and it’s derivatives until 2014. That’s the drug most of them did after they started testing for anabolics in the early 2000s. Also MLBs testing policy is junior varsity compared to USADA (the gold standard for doping testing used by Olympics / UFC / Boxing etc). That’s why so many fighters get dinged for doping and so few baseball players do.