OT Baseball HOF hypocrisy

[8893]

People are aware that these people are all featured in the HoF museum, in the sense that any records they hold are commemorated and recognized there, right? If they aren’t voted in it just means that their bust does not appear in the actual hall of the HoF.

I‘ve only been there once, in 1991, and I was surprised at how much Pete Rose stuff was there. It’s not like their accomplishments are ignored.

 

[Doctor Hoop]

There’s no doubt about that but I can promise you there’s a lot more than Yankee fans who don’t believe he deserved to be in. Only Sox fans believe he didn’t juice the rest of the baseball fans know otherwise. You don’t go from .270/20/75 to “working out with Manny Ramirez” and suddenly becoming an amazing stat producer without doing the same thing as he was.
Why isn’t Manny in?

I’m not going to get into it in too much detail. You may be right, but it’s an assumption with no data to back it up. All of the legit tests on Ortiz were negative. A lot of players improve their power numbers with experience. Hard to keep him out without actual proof, just based on suspicion.

Whereas Bonds had BALCO and a perjury conviction.
Starr: Bonds, Steroids and Guilt

Now, Manny, OTOH, sure. He had positive tests.

 

[superjohn]

Odd thing. If Ortiz was using steroids, he got much better after he stopped using them. His stats after 2003 are the numbers that got him into the HOF. And he had multiple tests after the first (and only) failed test. He was clean for all of them.

You get better forever after using steroids. You don't just stop and it all goes away.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Over 500 hrs, 9 time allstar. So why is Harold Baines in then. You know Jeter never won an mvp so should Kevin Mitchell get in since he won an mvp and Jeter didn’t.

I wouldn't put Baines in. Him being in by a hand picked veteran committee by Reinsdorf shouldn't open flood gates for everyone else.
Jeter, even tough he was a joke at the end, won 5 Gold Gloves and is 6th all time in hits. Sheffield is nowhere near that level. Neither is Mitchell.
If you are getting in with no MVP's you better be historically good at something and have significant post season street cred.

 

[UCfor3]

Whether he was positive in the 2003 test is anyones guess. With that said he was tested from 2004 to 2016 and didn't test positive once. He was awesome during those years, especially when it mattered most. If you want to say he found a way to avoid testing positive, then everyone who played could be considered possible steroid users. He's one of 4 guys all-time with 3 World Series and 500 home runs. Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle and Reggie Jackson are the other 3.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Integrity is literally one of the voting criteria, they listed it off during the announcement tonight.

You think that the members of the baseball hall of fame are uniformly men of high character? I mean, at least come up with a decent counter-argument for Barry Bonds not being in the Hall of Fame. That's certainly not it.

 

[HooperScooper]

Why isn’t Manny in?

Because he twice tested positive for PEDs.

Manny Ramirez opens up on PED suspensions, wants to return to baseball

Manny Ramirez spent time last season playing in Taiwan's professional league. (AFP) In an exclusive interview with Fox Sports' Ken Rosenthal, former slugger

www.si.com

 

[nomar]

It's not a court of law. It's opinion based voting and if a voter believes he was a user and still votes for him then the voter just decided a steroid enhanced player should get in and the precedent has been set.

This is very confusing. Precedent for whom?

Are there voters out there saying, "I believe he juiced and I'm voting for him anyway"? If there were a lot of those people then Bonds would be in.

I doubt it. I think a lot of people think the "evidence" against this guy is weak. Because it is. I really wonder what the explanation is for why this guy never tested positive through MLB's testing system? Was he having Pedro piss for him?

And while, sure, his career took off in Boston, his career trajectory looks pretty similar to any other superstar's: he was excellent in the minors, had an OPS between .799 and .839 each year in Minnesota, and then got progressively better in his mid-20s.

And this is what he looked like as a rookie:

Hardly McGwire on the '87 A's or Bonds in Pittsburgh. Ortiz was always a stocky guy.

All because of some leaked list from 2003 with no provenance, which has been discredited by MLB. Nobody even knows what he (or the other 102 players) allegedly tested positive for: some of the "positives" included OTC stuff and/or stuff that wasn't prohibited. These are all facts.

Do I know for a fact he never used PEDs? Of course not. I can't prove a negative. Do I think it's highly unlikely that his success was due to PEDs? Yes. The guy was hitting bombs in his late 30s, and was getting tested every 5 seconds. Negative over and over and over again.

 

[mauconnfan]

I don't know if Ortiz did or didn't use. I believe he's the one who basically 'broke' the news about the 2003 test. I do remember Lou Merloni claiming the Red Sox taught their players how to correctly/safely use steroids, but this was after his last release and seemed odd that he would throw his teammates under the bus.

I know Bagwell got huge, and I am not totally naive, but he was not mentioned in any report. He is often credited as being the guy who used radical weight lifting routines and getting that trend started. Even teammates who used never said anything about him. His weight loss also happened when his body started breaking down (which could be steroid related or from his lifting routine as well) and I thought was done to try to extend his career with his bad shoulders

Bagwell just as obvious yet somehow was able to get by, same deal there were many players in the era playing without supposedly testing positive at all.

 

[CL82]

He’s not yet at all. He can’t get in until they let the others in. He’s not half the player Bonds was before he began his cheating ways.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

An observation - in threads like this you can really ID the Yankee fans and the Red Sox fans.

Clemens offers a two-fer.

 

[StllH8L8ner]

For those of us of a certain age, the HOF was reserved for greatness. They lost me at Harold Baines.

I’d like this twice if I could. It’s becoming the Hall of Good.

I think Papi being a likeable guy helped his cause. Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, etc were notorious d-bags. Kinda like Laettner…

 

[The Viking]

Don't get me started on Harold Baines while Dwight Evans had more HR than any AL player in the 80s and had 8 gold gloves playing the toughest RF in baseball. And he's on the outside looking in.

 

[EnochRoot]

Don't get me started on Harold Baines while Dwight Evans had more HR than any AL player in the 80s and had 8 gold gloves playing the toughest RF in baseball. And he's on the outside looking in.

It's sort of a joke that Baines is in the HOF, but specific to the BoSox: Evans deserved the nod before Jim Rice did.

 

[The Viking]

Regarding the others, they'll get in - they'll just have to wait a tad bit longer:

Schilling, Bonds and Clemens could all still be voted into the Hall of Fame in December by the Today's Game Committee, which considers players who made their mark from 1988 to the present and didn't get more than 75% on the baseball writers' ballots.

 

[ColchVEGAS]

Either let them all in or leave them all out. I think it is safe to say the use was rampant in that era. The only players I would be absolutely shocked about not being clean are Derek Jeter and Chipper Jones.

 

[superjohn]

This is very confusing. Precedent for whom?

Are there voters out there saying, "I believe he juiced and I'm voting for him anyway"? If there were a lot of those people then Bonds would be in.

I doubt it. I think a lot of people think the "evidence" against this guy is weak. Because it is. I really wonder what the explanation is for why this guy never tested positive through MLB's testing system? Was he having Pedro piss for him?

And while, sure, his career took off in Boston, his career trajectory looks pretty similar to any other superstar's: he was excellent in the minors, had an OPS between .799 and .839 each year in Minnesota, and then got progressively better in his mid-20s.

And this is what he looked like as a rookie:

Hardly McGwire on the '87 A's or Bonds in Pittsburgh. Ortiz was always a stocky guy.

All because of some leaked list from 2003 with no provenance, which has been discredited by MLB. Nobody even knows what he (or the other 102 players) allegedly tested positive for: some of the "positives" included OTC stuff and/or stuff that wasn't prohibited. These are all facts.

Do I know for a fact he never used PEDs? Of course not. I can't prove a negative. Do I think it's highly unlikely that his success was due to PEDs? Yes. The guy was hitting bombs in his late 30s, and was getting tested every 5 seconds. Negative over and over and over again.

You can pretend all you want but we all know Ortiz tested positive in '03. It shouldn't matter and I'm glad he got in but it's a joke Bonds, Clemens, and ARod didn't get in. Nobody's success is all due to steroids, all these guys who did them were already great, steroids make you greater.

Ortiz is well liked and good for baseball, Manfred likes him for pr.

 

[uconngb]

Either let them all in or leave them all out. I think it is safe to say the use was rampant in that era. The only players I would be absolutely shocked about not being clean are Derek Jeter and Chipper Jones.

Yeah Pedroia was DEFINITELY juicing. That guy was HUGE!!

 

[Spaceman213J]

I was just reading an article about 'Dewey' and how by today's metrics he's the player most deserving outside of the 'steroid' tainted players to be in the HOF.

 

[Doctor Hoop]

I found 2 interesting items, that may sway some minds here. Or maybe not.

First, there’s this story, on Ortiz out-homering ARod and Griffey Jr. during a home run derby when he was in A ball, his 1st pro year. That was 1996.
Big Papi stole derby spotlight with Timber Rattlers

Second, if you look at his career stats his HR per AB ratio is between 1 every 15 and 1 every 20 for his entire career, including the last two years with the Twins in ‘01 and ‘02. There was no spike in production.
David Ortiz Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Plus, the guy hit .455 in World Series games, including .688 in 2013.

 

[EnochRoot]

Either let them all in or leave them all out. I think it is safe to say the use was rampant in that era. The only players I would be absolutely shocked about not being clean are Derek Jeter and Chipper Jones.

Agreed. I'd like to think Ortiz sees the forest through the trees and makes statements along these lines. He will have a bully pulpit to address the elephant(s) in the room. Whether or not he chooses to engage it remains to be seen.

I was just reading an article about 'Dewey' and how by today's metrics he's the player most deserving outside of the 'steroid' tainted players to be in the HOF.

When you get a chance, can you link it?

You know, he was in the midst of a career year during the '81 season. The MLB strike did him no favors.

 

[uconngb]

I found 2 interesting items, that may sway some minds here. Or maybe not.

First, there’s this story, on Ortiz out-homering ARod and Griffey Jr. during a home run derby when he was in A ball, his 1st pro year.

Nothing will ever sway the minds of Yankee fans about Ortiz. They just can’t let 2004 go. They just assume he cheated even though it’s never been proven.

It’s the same fascination they have with “deflategate”. But they don’t acknowledge that with “properly inflated balls” the Pats outscored the Colts 28-0 in the 2nd half of that game.

When facts don’t work for you, you try and make up something that does. It’s cute.

 

[Chin Diesel]

It's sort of a joke that Baines is in the HOF, but specific to the BoSox: Evans deserved the nod before Jim Rice did.

Nah. Rice had an MVP and five other top 5 MVP seasons.

Dewey had a rocket for an arm and had defend a much harder position at Fenway but Rice was a no brainer.

 

[EnochRoot]

I found 2 interesting items, that may sway some minds here. Or maybe not.

First, there’s this story, on Ortiz out-homering ARod and Griffey Jr. during a home run derby when he was in A ball, his 1st pro year.

I saw that the other day. Yet Seattle gave up on him in a PTBNL deal involving Dave Hollins. I have no problem with Ortiz in the HOF. But they need to finish the sentence and enshrine some of the far more deserving players.

 

[EnochRoot]

Nah. Rice had an MVP and five other top 5 MVP seasons.

Dewey had a rocket for an arm and had defend a much harder position at Fenway but Rice was a no brainer.

Rice was a product of Fenway Park. But yeah, he was fun to watch.