OT Baseball HOF hypocrisy

[Connecticut13]

It's not the "Hall of Good Dudes."

It's ridiculous that the guy who is arguably - I personally don't think it's arguable - the best player in the history of the sport is not in the Hall of Fame.

I get what you’re saying but integrity, character and sportsmanship are part of the criteria as set forth in the rules. Voters cast ballots based on that criteria.

 

[Connecticut13]

He tested positive in 2003. The public just weren't supposed to know about it.

But they’ve admitted there were false positives then, so no way of knowing conclusively that he wasn’t among the false positives.

For the record, I don’t doubt he was juicing. Just no conclusive proof - and therefore there was no choice but to elect him.

 

[Doctor Hoop]

An observation - in threads like this you can really ID the Yankee fans and the Red Sox fans.

 

[uconngb]

And he clearly cheated just as much.

Lolololololol

 

[SubbaBub]

Its simple. Big Papi used roids a little and Clemons, Bonds, Manny and others used a lot. So, Papi just made it and the others almost made it. If they each didn't get caught/admit then they would have gotten in too. And Papi was only accused becuase of a blind sampling when it wasn't illegal yet. After that, he passed ever test!!!!!

This is naive. PED were rampant in the 80's/90's. The names you know have one of three reasons yoy know. 1. The confessed, tested positive. 2. They played in New York/Boston or were otherwise connected to the Mets trainer that was the primary source in the area. 3. They were ratted out by someone in categories 1 or 2.

If you look at the list, an outsized number of players were from the Caribbean, specifically DR. The incenctive to escape extreme poverty to play made using a non-choice. Ortiz was clearly one of those guys.

Its the Lance Armstrong tell, anyone doing extraordinary physical feats against people doing PEDs, was by default also using PED's. You can decide how you feel about it, but you can't deny it.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Sheffield should be in as well.

Shuffled belongs in Hall of Very Good For A Long Time. No MVP's, won one batting title.

 

[Chin Diesel]

He tested positive in 2003. The public just weren't supposed to know about it.

You can't provide any evidence of that.

It's an opinion and you are free to feel however you like but there isn't anything to back up your opinion

 

[HooperScooper]

An observation - in threads like this you can really ID the Yankee fans and the Red Sox fans.

And the Mets fan. Who don't have much to root for so they just hate every other team.

 

[metsfan2323]

The same could be said for Bagwell and Piazza. It’s only speculation - and it certainly seems like they were using, but you can’t keep him out because of speculation.

Sure you could keep them out. Piazza being in is also a joke. Piazza and Bagwell both shrunk like deflated balloons as soon as steroids were banned. Either let all of the steroid era guys in or keep them all out but don't turn it into a popularity contest. Bonds is the best player of his era and was a hall of fame quality player even before he used steroids. Banning Bonds is absurd.

 

[nomar]

Ortiz is a different story, despite his own PED suspicions. A 2009 New York Times story reported that Ortiz was among 104 players who tested positive for performance-enhancing substances during a round of tests conducted in 2003. Those results were supposed to remain confidential and were done to see if the league had reached a threshold to conduct regular testing.

Ortiz has long denied that he used banned substances, and in 2016, commissioner Rob Manfred said the tests in question were inconclusive because "it was hard to distinguish between certain substances that were legal, available over the counter, and not banned under our program."

Manfred added that during subsequent testing Ortiz "has never been a positive at any point under our program.

Former Boston Red Sox slugger David Ortiz lone inductee into Baseball Hall of Fame as Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens miss again

With the class being announced Tuesday night, former Boston Red Sox slugger David Ortiz was the lone player to receive the necessary votes for election into the Baseball Hall of Fame this year, while Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens fell short.

www.espn.com

Innocent until proven guilty! Unless it's David Ortiz and you're a Yankees fan or Deepster.

For the record, my opinion as to known PED users is to vote based on their pre-cheating record. If Bonds and Clemens dropped dead before they started juicing, they'd have been first-ballot HOFers. They're in, perhaps with an asterisk. McGwire? Nope. Sosa? Nope.

And I think I'd vote Schilling in. There are plenty of jackasses in the HOF. What's one more?

 

[mauconnfan]

An observation - in threads like this you can really ID the Yankee fans and the Red Sox fans.

There’s no doubt about that but I can promise you there’s a lot more than Yankee fans who don’t believe he deserved to be in. Only Sox fans believe he didn’t juice the rest of the baseball fans know otherwise. You don’t go from .270/20/75 to “working out with Manny Ramirez” and suddenly becoming an amazing stat producer without doing the same thing as he was.
Why isn’t Manny in?

 

[metsfan2323]

Innocent until proven guilty!

It's not a court of law. It's opinion based voting and if a voter believes he was a user and still votes for him then the voter just decided a steroid enhanced player should get in and the precedent has been set.

 

[Scoe]

Shuffled belongs in Hall of Very Good For A Long Time. No MVP's, won one batting title.

Over 500 hrs, 9 time allstar. So why is Harold Baines in then. You know Jeter never won an mvp so should Kevin Mitchell get in since he won an mvp and Jeter didn’t.

 

[uconngb]

There’s no doubt about that but I can promise you there’s a lot more than Yankee fans who don’t believe he deserved to be in. Only Sox fans believe he didn’t juice the rest of the baseball fans know otherwise. You don’t go from .270/20/75 to “working out with Manny Ramirez” and suddenly becoming an amazing stat producer without doing the same thing as he was.
Why isn’t Manny in?

And I was really getting to like you so much this season…….

 

[Spaceman213J]

I don't know if Ortiz did or didn't use. I believe he's the one who basically 'broke' the news about the 2003 test. I do remember Lou Merloni claiming the Red Sox taught their players how to correctly/safely use steroids, but this was after his last release and seemed odd that he would throw his teammates under the bus.

I know Bagwell got huge, and I am not totally naive, but he was not mentioned in any report. He is often credited as being the guy who used radical weight lifting routines and getting that trend started. Even teammates who used never said anything about him. His weight loss also happened when his body started breaking down (which could be steroid related or from his lifting routine as well) and I thought was done to try to extend his career with his bad shoulders and knees starting to go as well.

 

[superjohn]

An observation - in threads like this you can really ID the Yankee fans and the Red Sox fans.

I'm a Yankees fan and ARod hater. I consider Clemens, Ortiz, and Schilling Red Sox and they should all absolutely be in the Hall of Fame as should Bonds and ARod.

 

[NC_Uconn_Fan]

Until Bonds gets in, the hall of fame voting is a complete joke. There are already PED users in the hall now, so that excuse is lame.

 

[HobokenHusky]

It's not the "Hall of Good Dudes."

It's ridiculous that the guy who is arguably - I personally don't think it's arguable - the best player in the history of the sport is not in the Hall of Fame.

Integrity is literally one of the voting criteria, they listed it off during the announcement tonight.

 

[uconngb]

I don't know if Ortiz did or didn't use. I believe he's the one who basically 'broke' the news about the 2003 test. I do remember Lou Merloni claiming the Red Sox taught their players how to correctly/safely use steroids, but this was after his last release and seemed odd that he would throw his teammates under the bus.

I know Bagwell got huge, and I am not totally naive, but he was not mentioned in any report. He is often credited as being the guy who used radical weight lifting routines and getting that trend started. Even teammates who used never said anything about him. His weight loss also happened when his body started breaking down (which could be steroid related or from his lifting routine as well) and I thought was done to try to extend his career with his bad shoulders and knees starting to go as well.

What we know for sure:
Bonds
Arod
Clemens
Manny
Maguire
Palmiero
Sosa
Giambi

All used. The rest is a bunch of speculation and what team you like or hate. I’m a Sox fan and I don’t even count Pettite. His body Roger screwed him over.

 

[Palatine]

LOL at thinking David Ortiz wasn't using steroids.

Odd thing. If Ortiz was using steroids, he got much better after he stopped using them. His stats after 2003 are the numbers that got him into the HOF. And he had multiple tests after the first (and only) failed test. He was clean for all of them.

BTW, we actually don't know if he failed the test. It was reported in the New York Times he failed a test. That report came from "a leak."

 

[8893]

People are aware that these people are all featured in the HoF museum, in the sense that any records they hold are commemorated and recognized there, right? If they aren’t voted in it just means that their bust does not appear in the actual hall of the HoF.

I‘ve only been there once, in 1991, and I was surprised at how much Pete Rose stuff was there. It’s not like their accomplishments are ignored.

 

[Doctor Hoop]

There’s no doubt about that but I can promise you there’s a lot more than Yankee fans who don’t believe he deserved to be in. Only Sox fans believe he didn’t juice the rest of the baseball fans know otherwise. You don’t go from .270/20/75 to “working out with Manny Ramirez” and suddenly becoming an amazing stat producer without doing the same thing as he was.
Why isn’t Manny in?

I’m not going to get into it in too much detail. You may be right, but it’s an assumption with no data to back it up. All of the legit tests on Ortiz were negative. A lot of players improve their power numbers with experience. Hard to keep him out without actual proof, just based on suspicion.

Whereas Bonds had BALCO and a perjury conviction.
Starr: Bonds, Steroids and Guilt

Now, Manny, OTOH, sure. He had positive tests.

 

[superjohn]

Odd thing. If Ortiz was using steroids, he got much better after he stopped using them. His stats after 2003 are the numbers that got him into the HOF. And he had multiple tests after the first (and only) failed test. He was clean for all of them.

You get better forever after using steroids. You don't just stop and it all goes away.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Over 500 hrs, 9 time allstar. So why is Harold Baines in then. You know Jeter never won an mvp so should Kevin Mitchell get in since he won an mvp and Jeter didn’t.

I wouldn't put Baines in. Him being in by a hand picked veteran committee by Reinsdorf shouldn't open flood gates for everyone else.
Jeter, even tough he was a joke at the end, won 5 Gold Gloves and is 6th all time in hits. Sheffield is nowhere near that level. Neither is Mitchell.
If you are getting in with no MVP's you better be historically good at something and have significant post season street cred.

 

[UCfor3]

Whether he was positive in the 2003 test is anyones guess. With that said he was tested from 2004 to 2016 and didn't test positive once. He was awesome during those years, especially when it mattered most. If you want to say he found a way to avoid testing positive, then everyone who played could be considered possible steroid users. He's one of 4 guys all-time with 3 World Series and 500 home runs. Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle and Reggie Jackson are the other 3.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Integrity is literally one of the voting criteria, they listed it off during the announcement tonight.

You think that the members of the baseball hall of fame are uniformly men of high character? I mean, at least come up with a decent counter-argument for Barry Bonds not being in the Hall of Fame. That's certainly not it.

 

[HooperScooper]

Why isn’t Manny in?

Because he twice tested positive for PEDs.

Manny Ramirez opens up on PED suspensions, wants to return to baseball

Manny Ramirez spent time last season playing in Taiwan's professional league. (AFP) In an exclusive interview with Fox Sports' Ken Rosenthal, former slugger

www.si.com

 

[nomar]

It's not a court of law. It's opinion based voting and if a voter believes he was a user and still votes for him then the voter just decided a steroid enhanced player should get in and the precedent has been set.

This is very confusing. Precedent for whom?

Are there voters out there saying, "I believe he juiced and I'm voting for him anyway"? If there were a lot of those people then Bonds would be in.

I doubt it. I think a lot of people think the "evidence" against this guy is weak. Because it is. I really wonder what the explanation is for why this guy never tested positive through MLB's testing system? Was he having Pedro piss for him?

And while, sure, his career took off in Boston, his career trajectory looks pretty similar to any other superstar's: he was excellent in the minors, had an OPS between .799 and .839 each year in Minnesota, and then got progressively better in his mid-20s.

And this is what he looked like as a rookie:

Hardly McGwire on the '87 A's or Bonds in Pittsburgh. Ortiz was always a stocky guy.

All because of some leaked list from 2003 with no provenance, which has been discredited by MLB. Nobody even knows what he (or the other 102 players) allegedly tested positive for: some of the "positives" included OTC stuff and/or stuff that wasn't prohibited. These are all facts.

Do I know for a fact he never used PEDs? Of course not. I can't prove a negative. Do I think it's highly unlikely that his success was due to PEDs? Yes. The guy was hitting bombs in his late 30s, and was getting tested every 5 seconds. Negative over and over and over again.

 

[mauconnfan]

I don't know if Ortiz did or didn't use. I believe he's the one who basically 'broke' the news about the 2003 test. I do remember Lou Merloni claiming the Red Sox taught their players how to correctly/safely use steroids, but this was after his last release and seemed odd that he would throw his teammates under the bus.

I know Bagwell got huge, and I am not totally naive, but he was not mentioned in any report. He is often credited as being the guy who used radical weight lifting routines and getting that trend started. Even teammates who used never said anything about him. His weight loss also happened when his body started breaking down (which could be steroid related or from his lifting routine as well) and I thought was done to try to extend his career with his bad shoulders

Bagwell just as obvious yet somehow was able to get by, same deal there were many players in the era playing without supposedly testing positive at all.

 

[CL82]

He’s not yet at all. He can’t get in until they let the others in. He’s not half the player Bonds was before he began his cheating ways.