NBA Post-Season Thread | Page 19 | The Boneyard

NBA Post-Season Thread

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Everyone does. It's not a Lebron thing. While it is the most star driven professional sport of all of them, it's still a team game. The changes in the salary cap in recent years have had the effect of consolidating talent to an even greater degree. They need to adjust it. Lebron wouldn't need Love and Irving if no other team could afford three players like that, but they can, so he does.


There's literally one other team in the entire league like that. And before Durant joined them, they built it through the draft. Teams have had to adjust to him not the other way around. And still its been one move, KD to GSW.

Lebron started the superteam and he has continued it and has basically been the only one.
 
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Dude is top 5 now, and i think there's a good chance he ends up #2 ... I could argue he is right now.

But to exceed Jordan's mark on the game, his 6-6-6 MVPs, etc., it's hard to imagine realistically Lebron could exceed him. Tough to beat 6-6-6. If he gets another 3-4, without losing? How realistic is that?

This has been my exact same argument forever. I agree Lebron ends up #2 and probably already is.

But Jordan never had 2011. He never quit on his team (Orl and Boston). Lebron basically gave up in both of those series (don't know the years, it was his first stint with Cle). Lebron also faked that elbow injury in the same series. He is on a loaded team and is playing chump teams. Cle roster minus Lebron is better than Indiana, Toronto, and Boston minus IT (possibly even with him).

For the last 7 years, Lebron has literally had 4 games to win in the entire season. Its been all about the finals. And hes under .500. Im not ripping him. Hes great, but people here are comparing him to MJ.

That resume doesn't pass MJ, I'm sorry. #2 for sure. But that doesn't come close to MJ.
 
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That team would crush those Pistons teams. It had 4 HoF players all playing at a high level, the GOAT coach, and fantastic support players who knew and executed their role. They had better ball movement than the current Warriors team imo.

Can't really compare how teams from different eras would do vs one another, but I'd strongly disagree that the 13-14 version of the Spurs had better accomplishments and would strongly disagree about the Spurs having better ball movement than these Warriors teams have had (though really who cares how much ball movement is needed to result in a good shot as long as you're getting the good shot).

You seriously overrate that 2014 Spurs team. Parker was the only core player actually in his prime. That team winning the title was just a coaching masterpiece.
 
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There's literally one other team in the entire league like that. And before Durant joined them, they built it through the draft. Teams have had to adjust to him not the other way around. And still its been one move, KD to GSW.

Lebron started the superteam and he has continued it and has basically been the only one.
Superteams existed long before Lebron bolted for the Heat. Such a ridiculous narrative that still lives on.
 

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Given how good the Warriors are LeBron would merit serious GOAT consideration if he were to beat them this and next year. He'd have beaten another historically great team 3 years in a row and would have been the alpha dog on 5 title teams.

They'd have won 1 title in 4 years then ... So how would they be a historically great team?

They'd be a great what if, and Lebron would get a lot of brownie points for that, but it wouldn't elevate him past MJ for his career accomplishments.

If you want to take Lebron in his prime over Jordan, that's a different argument.
 
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I think Fishy said it best, if your are redrafting the NBA for any player in history he'd take 'Bron #1.

I agree.

But no wrong answers in a sense. Even if he gets to 6 'ships the knock will be MJ never lost in the finals and 'Bron did multiple times, in theory could be .500 if he loses this year to GSW.


They'd have won 1 title in 4 years then ... So how would they be a historically great team?

They'd be a great what if, and Lebron would get a lot of brownie points for that, but it wouldn't elevate him past MJ for his career accomplishments.

If you want to take Lebron in his prime over Jordan, that's a different argument.
 
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I don't think the knock is that LeBron lost in the finals, it's more that he disappeared. His worst performance are certainly worse than MJs. It always baffles me when players are penalized for losing in the final round. Would LeBron have a better resume if he was 3 for 3? It's just silly.
 
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I think Fishy said it best, if your are redrafting the NBA for any player in history he'd take 'Bron #1.

I agree.
I think one could make the case that LeBron is the better basketball player...

But no wrong answers in a sense. Even if he gets to 6 'ships the knock will be MJ never lost in the finals and 'Bron did multiple times, in theory could be .500 if he loses this year to GSW.
... but MJ is clearly the more accomplished player
 
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I think one could make the case that LeBron is the better basketball player...


... but MJ is clearly the more accomplished player


But LeBron is still playing. We know Jordan will not add another accomplishment to his resume as a player. LeBron probably has 1.5 prime years and another 3 good - very good years remaining.
 
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I think Fishy said it best, if your are redrafting the NBA for any player in history he'd take 'Bron #1.

I agree.

But no wrong answers in a sense. Even if he gets to 6 'ships the knock will be MJ never lost in the finals and 'Bron did multiple times, in theory could be .500 if he loses this year to GSW.

Disagree with what Fishy said.
 
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They'd have won 1 title in 4 years then ... So how would they be a historically great team?

They'd be a great what if, and Lebron would get a lot of brownie points for that, but it wouldn't elevate him past MJ for his career accomplishments.

If you want to take Lebron in his prime over Jordan, that's a different argument.

Because they'd have made 4 straight finals, presumably win close to 70 games again next year, have at worst 2 of the last 4 MVPs, and would only be prevented from winning 4 straight titles by arguably the best player ever at that point.

Warriors would basically be the modern 80's Celtics to the Cavs Lakers.
 
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The thing I've always wondered is how many titles Jordan would have won had his father not been murdered and then his early retirement, I always thought 9.
 
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I doubt it, but no way if MJ played in this 3 PT era

I love MJ, but would draft LeBron over him immediately, 'Bron can play and defend any position on the floor

He's in the simplest terms a much more athletic and skilled version of Magic, and many consider Magic one of the top 5-10 of all time

The thing I've always wondered is how many titles Jordan would have won had his father not been murdered and then his early retirement, I always thought 9.
 
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The thing I've always wondered is how many titles Jordan would have won had his father not been murdered and then his early retirement, I always thought 9.
No retirement = 8 for MJ - 2 for Hakeem.
 
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I doubt it, but no way if MJ played in this 3 PT era

I love MJ, but would draft LeBron over him immediately, 'Bron can play and defend any position on the floor

He's in the simplest terms a much more athletic and skilled version of Magic, and many consider Magic one of the top 5-10 of all time
Way to respond to my post with something that has absolutely nothing to do with my post. Bully for you!

If you want to go down that road I could tell you how Lebron would get laid on his arse if he played in Jordan's era. Lebron is amazing but he's playing in an era of no hand checks, no hard fouls, and no big men. The eras are different and both have their strengths and weaknesses but one thing I'm confident in, Jordan would average close to 40 ppg in this era.
 
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Honestly, I think the 90s overall was bad, Jordan's legacy benefitted from that

He's like the Roger Federer of hoops, played in an era of no competition and compiled 'Ships

LeBron is trying to beat SuperTeams year in and year out (Spurs, GSW)

Way to respond to my post with something that has absolutely nothing to do with my post. Bully for you!

If you want to go down that road I could tell you how Lebron would get laid on his arse if he played in Jordan's era. Lebron is amazing but he's playing in an era of no hand checks, no hard fouls, and no big men. The eras are different and both have their strengths and weaknesses but one thing I'm confident in, Jordan would average close to 40 ppg in this era.
 
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Honestly, I think the 90s overall was bad, Jordan's legacy benefitted from that

He's like the Roger Federer of hoops, played in an era of no competition and compiled 'Ships

LeBron is trying to beat SuperTeams year in and year out (Spurs, GSW)

Except Nadal has won 14 majors in roughly the same time frame but other than that you're right.
 
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Honestly, I think the 90s overall was bad, Jordan's legacy benefitted from that

He's like the Roger Federer of hoops, played in an era of no competition and compiled 'Ships

LeBron is trying to beat SuperTeams year in and year out (Spurs, GSW)
Federer is the best tennis player of all-time.

Early in Jordan's career he was kept from the finals by the Bird, McHale, Parish Celtics and the Pistons bad boys (before he vanquished them and never looked back) two of the best teams of all-time.

When Jordan made it to the big show he dispatched and won MVP every time going through the Magic Worthy Lakers, Drexler Trailblazers, Barkley Suns, Payton Kemp Sonics, and Stockton Malone Jazz...that's not exactly chopped liver.
 
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Great arguements

Tennis is a great, great one. Probably the best one of the all-time stuff. We should create an OT one if people would have the interest to discuss. It would be great.

Have to follow this Finals. More Legacy chances.

Federer is the best tennis player of all-time.

Early in Jordan's career he was kept from the finals by the Bird, McHale, Parish Celtics and the Pistons bad boys (before he vanquished them and never looked back) two of the best teams of all-time.

When Jordan made it to the big show he dispatched and won MVP every time going through the Magic Worthy Lakers, Drexler Trailblazers, Barkley Suns, Payton Kemp Sonics, and Stockton Malone Jazz...that's not exactly chopped liver.
 
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Honestly, I think the 90s overall was bad, Jordan's legacy benefitted from that

He's like the Roger Federer of hoops, played in an era of no competition and compiled 'Ships

LeBron is trying to beat SuperTeams year in and year out (Spurs, GSW)

Spurs weren't a super team and LeBron has had his own super duper teams for the last 7 years.
 
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Spurs weren't a super team and LeBron has had his own super duper teams for the last 7 years.

How are the Spurs not a super team? Duncan, Parker and Ginobili are all locks to enter the hall of fame and Kawhi was a rising star on those teams that played Lebron.
 
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The narrative wasn't "What's wrong with D-Wade", it was "The Heat are managing his minutes to save him for the playoffs". He also didn't "fade in the playoffs" given that the 46% he shot in the postseason that year is only 1 less than his 47% career mark, and the lower FTAs were due to generally having the ball in his hand less, as evidenced by the 5% drop in usage and 5 less FGA that season. He really only had a poor final 2 games against the Spurs, but both games were nearly 20-point blowouts anyways so can't really pin that solely on Wade.

I can't really take your talking about a specific portion of a game where the Heat had 2 of their big 3 resting on the bench against a Spurs team that basically played 7 guys in games 6-7 of the 13 finals, 2 of those were a 36 year old Duncan and a 35 year old Manu, 2 more being Gary Neal and Boris Diaw's fat tits. You also didn't mention Parker going 6-23 in game 6 or Parker & Danny Green combining for 4-24 in game 7. Stop selectively picking your anecdotal Lebron memories to build your case on, you sound so very much like Brian Windhorst when you do that.


Thing with listing Lebron's great achievements is that you can list nearly as many black marks that hurt his case:

1. Getting completely destroyed in the 07 finals even though the games themselves were much closer than anyone remembers

2. Giving up against the Celts in 2010

3. Relocating to build his original super team (I actually blame him more for going back to Cleveland when this super team started to age but this is still a point of contention for many people)

4. His complete meltdown in the 2011 finals

5. Leaving his partially aging super team to go back to Cleveland under the condition that they restack the deck in his favor

6. Being 3-4 in his 7 NBA finals series. Even forgiving the 07 finals he'd still be at .500, name me another top 3, 5, or 10 player (who didn't come from the Bill Russell era) with such a mediocre finals record.


Adding everything up, It's hard to make any serious argument for LeBron over MJ unless James leads his teams to another couple titles.

It's impossible for be to believe that you can look at the numbers I cited from the '13 playoffs and not think he faded. It isn't just because he didn't have the ball in his hands. His field goal percentage went way down where it should have went up given the decline in usage that you mentioned. 46% from the field is good in a vacuum but not really when you can't shoot threes and can't get to the line. This is all part of you over-selling how good those Heat "super teams" were. The only time during that whole run when I really thought that was when they won 26 in a row in 2013 and maybe the back-end of the playoffs in 2012 when Bosh returned from injury. Before that they were starting replacement level players at point guard and center and after that D-Wade began to dip.

If me talking about the fourth quarter of an NBA finals elimination game is being "selective" then yes I'm being selective, and just like you inflate how good those Heat teams were you do the opposite with the Spurs teams. Duncan was older but he was still playing at a Hall of Fame level - there is actually little on a per-minute basis to suggest that he was much different as a player than he was at 30 and if you look at his numbers throughout that finals he was still playing some of the best basketball of his career. He played over 36 minutes per game in those finals and played at the level of an all NBA player, outplaying Bosh, Wade, and everybody in that series besides LeBron.

Then you had Green and Leonard on the wing, two perfect three and D guys even before Kawhi hit his prime (and he was getting there fast). Ginobili could still play, Tiago Splitter was rendered mostly useless in that series but was still a valuable spare part, and Tony Parker was still in his prime.

In total they were a supremely skilled and cohesive unit that struck the perfect twilight between the beginning of one era and the end of another. Certainly, they lacked star power, but if you're going to penalize them for that than you should extend a reciprocal qualifier to the Thunder team he beat in 2012. Even though they hadn't quite reached their primes, that was about as star-studded a team as has been seen in NBA history.

Of the six "black marks" you list against LeBron, I can only take #4 and maybe #5 seriously. I've never understood criticizing him for losing in the finals. Would he be better off losing in the second round? 2010 should definitely be held against him, though I wouldn't use the term "giving up." Posting 27, 19, and 10 in a road game 6 isn't exactly evidence that he gave up (and I know he shot poorly and had a ton of turnovers, but that isn't something I look at as quitting).

I think a "serious argument" could be made for LeBron over Jordan, though I wouldn't make it. I agree he has work left to do, and if there is one component of his game that has always limited him in comparison to Jordan it is that he's not a natural one on one player. The fact that Kyrie gets the ball down the stretch much of the time for the Cavs isn't something I can ignore, not when a team like Golden State isn't doubling you.
 
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I also think LeBron gets penalized in the debate vs. Jordan for the fact that he entered the league way sooner. LeBron gets penalized for losing to the Spurs in the finals at age 22. When Jordan was 22 he got bounced in the first round against Milwaukee. LeBron's two worst playoff series occurred in his age 25 and 26 seasons, same age Jordan was when he had probably his worst two playoff series ever against Detroit.

This being LeBron's 8th finals appearance, it's the 6th time he'll have been an underdog, meaning even if he loses, he has actually outperformed expectations on the game's biggest stage.

I would still take Jordan in this debate, but a lot of the narratives being pumped out run contrary to some of the facts.
 
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You're joking if you think I'm going to waste my time writing more paragraphs repeating the same information I put into my last post when you clearly don't want to listen to reason. Wade's numbers were about as good as you can reasonably expect on a per usage basis throughout that entire 4 year run, save for maybe the final 2 games in 2014, which again we both 20 point blowouts.


The bizarre masturbatory recanting of the Spurs teams those 2 years were a fun read though. The team had hardly any depth, 0 athleticism outside of Parker and Kawhi, and probably not even a single player who would have been considered among the top 15 in the league in either of those 2 years (certainly not top 10). They're not a historically great team just because you liked watching them play and are apparently infatuated with Danny Green.


I also think LeBron gets penalized in the debate vs. Jordan for the fact that he entered the league way sooner. LeBron gets penalized for losing to the Spurs in the finals at age 22. When Jordan was 22 he got bounced in the first round against Milwaukee. LeBron's two worst playoff series occurred in his age 25 and 26 seasons, same age Jordan was when he had probably his worst two playoff series ever against Detroit.

Also just wanted to briefly respond to this. MJ was 21 and in his rookie season in that series vs the Bucks you referenced. MJ averaged 29-6-8 with 2.8 spg and 1 bpg while playing 43 mpg.

Also MJ against the Pistons:

1988: 1988 NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals - Chicago Bulls vs. Detroit Pistons | Basketball-Reference.com


1989: 1989 NBA Eastern Conference Finals - Chicago Bulls vs. Detroit Pistons | Basketball-Reference.com


1990: 1990 NBA Eastern Conference Finals - Chicago Bulls vs. Detroit Pistons | Basketball-Reference.com


Couple things about those series and those Pistons playoff runs. First is that even those Pistons teams that were some of the best and most physical defensive teams of all time couldn't really MJ. Second is that between the 89-90 Pistons title runs, MJ beat them in the playoffs 5 times, the Pistons lost 2 other games over both postseasons combined.


Sorry to spoil the cute little narrative you thought you had going there.
 

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