NBA Post-Season Thread

[champs99and04]

The correct answer here is KD, obviously, but I do think Kyrie is underrated.

Is it obvious?

 

[NielsisGood]

Obviously, odds are with GS - more complete team. But anybody discounting the Cav's chance is bolder than me. They are going to have the best two players on the court in James and Irving. Those two are probably followed by Durant, Thompson, Curry, Green, 3-6. Then Love 7. Then a mishmash from 8-12.
GS has not been tested at all in a long time. Irving is the most clutch player in the NBA. Curry wilts in the spotlight. Durant is as soft as Green is hard. Green is a monster when it matters.

Should be really interesting. Cavs best chance is to win game 1.

You're not very good at evaluating and ranking players.

 

[NielsisGood]

I'm posting stats directly from the links you're giving me. I'm also not sure you know what the word anecdote means.

The only stats I saw in your last post were entirely incorrect if you were using the 2014 link I provided.

Is it obvious?

Yes.

 

[lange10]

Let's not get carried away. Cavs would still be a 4-5 seed if you replaced LeBron with an average small forward.

Not true. Have you seen the stats without Lebron on the court/resting games?

With Lebron on the court the Cavs had a net rating of +8.5, meaning for every 100 possessions they'd outscore their opponents by 8.5 points. With Lebron off the court their net rating was -8.5, which is worst than the league worst Lakers whose net rating as a team was -7.6.

Not only that, since the 2014-2015 season when he sits they are 4-19. That record is a bit skewed because some of those Love and Kyrie sat out as well, but still even if you give them 3-4 wins for that it comes to 8-15.

 

[tzznandrew]

They are going to have the best two players on the court in James and Irving. Those two are probably followed by Durant, Thompson, Curry, Green, 3-6.

Yeah, this isn't right. LeBron will be the best player on the court. Then Durant.

Durant >>>> Irving

Like, this comparison isn't really close, even in this playoffs alone.

Then I'd probably put the healthy Steph Curry before Irving.

Then we probably go Irving-Green-Thompson-Love.

But, yeah, you are either underplaying Durant (by a ton) and Curry (by a little) or massively overestimating Irving, who is very good, mind you, but not as good as these guys. Especially since he can't hide defensively in the Finals this year. LeBron's also in a position where he'll have to guard someone good because the Cavs defense is so bad otherwise.

 

[lange10]

Yeah, this isn't right. LeBron will be the best player on the court. Then Durant.

Durant >>>> Irving

Like, this comparison isn't really close, even in this playoffs alone.

Then I'd probably put the healthy Steph Curry before Irving.

Then we probably go Irving-Green-Thompson-Love.

But, yeah, you are either underplaying Durant (by a ton) and Curry (by a little) or massively overestimating Irving, who is very good, mind you, but not as good as these guys. Especially since he can't hide defensively in the Finals this year. LeBron's also in a position where he'll have to guard someone good because the Cavs defense is so bad otherwise.

Because Klay is such a big 2 guard, Kyrie can't hide there. He'll be forced to guard Curry.

Matchups I see happening:
Curry - Kyrie
Klay - JR
Durant - Lebron
Draymond - Love
Zaza - Thomspon

Right away I notice that one of the most important players, if not the most important, in Draymond Green has a matchup he'll love. Maybe they throw Thompson on him instead because he's quicker laterally then Love and can guard on the perimeter, but then that takes him away from the basket and doing what he does best - rebound.

 

[tzznandrew]

Because Klay is such a big 2 guard, Kyrie can't hide there. He'll be forced to guard Curry.

Matchups I see happening:
Curry - Kyrie
Klay - JR
Durant - Lebron
Draymond - Love
Zaza - Thomspon

Right away I notice that one of the most important players, if not the most important, in Draymond Green has a matchup he'll love. Maybe they throw Thompson on him instead because he's quicker laterally then Love and can guard on the perimeter, but then that takes him away from the basket and doing what he does best - rebound.

I think this is largely right. Kyrie's going to be forced to guard Steph, and then, in return, he'll almost certainly get stuck with Klay guarding him. It's not an ideal draw for him. Durant just changes things because he's so much better than Barnes he reshapes everything.

Similarly, LeBron hasn't had anyone who could even really bother him on D; now he'll have Dray, Durant, Iggy, and occasionally Klay. He's too good not to get his, but it's just going to force him to have to work way more than he did in any series going into this.

 

[NielsisGood]

Not true. Have you seen the stats without Lebron on the court/resting games?

With Lebron on the court the Cavs had a net rating of +8.5, meaning for every 100 possessions they'd outscore their opponents by 8.5 points. With Lebron off the court their net rating was -8.5, which is worst than the league worst Lakers whose net rating as a team was -7.6.

Not only that, since the 2014-2015 season when he sits they are 4-19. That record is a bit skewed because some of those Love and Kyrie sat out as well, but still even if you give them 3-4 wins for that it comes to 8-15.

So you think the Cavs performance in games where LeBron has rested is a fair indicator of how the team would play if LeBron wasn't on the roster at all? Atlanta was the 5 seed at 43-39, you don't think a team with Kyrie, Love, and really solid role players doesn't at least win 44 games?

 

[intlzncster]

Yeah, this isn't right. LeBron will be the best player on the court. Then Durant.

Durant >>>> Irving

Like, this comparison isn't really close, even in this playoffs alone.

Then I'd probably put the healthy Steph Curry before Irving.

Then we probably go Irving-Green-Thompson-Love.

But, yeah, you are either underplaying Durant (by a ton) and Curry (by a little) or massively overestimating Irving, who is very good, mind you, but not as good as these guys. Especially since he can't hide defensively in the Finals this year. LeBron's also in a position where he'll have to guard someone good because the Cavs defense is so bad otherwise.

I know I'll catch heat for this, but I actually think Klay is better than Irving. And I like Irving, and his ability to pick up slack whenever he damn well feels like it, especially in big moments.

I just think Klay is massively underutilized for GS, rightly so, as they have so many options. Klay on another team would command so much more respect league-wide imo.

 

[lange10]

So you think the Cavs performance in games where LeBron has rested is a fair indicator of how the team would play if LeBron wasn't on the roster at all? Atlanta was the 5 seed at 43-39, you don't think a team with Kyrie, Love, and really solid role players doesn't at least win 44 games?

Surely with an entire offseason to train and change the strategy offensively and defensively they would be better off then their 4-19 record indicates. However, no Lebron means a much, much higher usage rate for Kyrie who's incredibly injury prone and what is now a mediocre defense becomes an absolute abomination. I think at best they'd be vying for the 7th or 8th spot in the east.

 

[MadDogRevival]

Durant >>>> Irving. Like, this comparison isn't really close, even in this playoffs alone.

If Durant is so good, then why, with a guy as great as Westbrook on his arm, was he not able to do anything much? He's soft and overrated, and, like Curry, wilts when it matters. Both Curry and Durant suffer from being soft. They're both great during the season with 20 point leads. Crunch time, not so much. Curry to me will always be the enigmatic combination of the greatest shooter I ever saw, by a wide margin, and the guy who threw the ball away on a behind the back pass to Thompson at a critical juncture against the Cavs, causing Thompson to give the greatest WTF look, arms flop at sides look I have ever seen.
GS is like some sort of weird rocky road ice cream with already too many different ingredients. Adding more ingredients is not the answer.
Curry is the best shooter ever and very overrated. He's not a good defender, he's not clutch, and he's not a strong leader. When his shot is not falling, as it wasn't when it mattered last year, he's a liability.
Thompson is awesome, a great defender and team player, and he might be the most underrated player in the league because of who he plays with.
Green is also awesome and a great leader for his team. He is the heart and soul of the Ws, and he's more important than any other player. He carried them at times last year.

Irving won the finals last year. If you were watching, you saw him destroy the Ws. Just destroyed them. His final 3 to win it when the game score was stalled for 4 minutes of regulation was just massive, and it capped off some of the greatest clutch play I've seen in the NBA. They guy is amazing, and he gets better as the pressure builds - he's like the anti-Curry in that regard.

LeBron is getting older, but he's got some gas left in the tank.

So I factor in those things to get the order. LeBron and Irving are the two best players on the court for the finals. If you want regular season wins, you go with Durant and Curry, I guess.

All the pressure is on the Warriors. Little or none on the Cavs. LBJ may have some, worrying about legacy. But nobody else. Coming in dogs.

The Warriors already have the distinction of dropping 2 games against a finals team running Delavedova at the point and for pulling off the greatest choke job in the history of the NBA. So now they add the freakiest Freak in the NBA, making them even stonger on paper. They've lost 1 game since March, or something crazy like that, playing against a broken western conference. Everybody has them winning it easily. Man, if they don't win in blowouts, the pressure is going to be massive. Massive. If they don't win it this year, it will have two effects - 1. The % of people saying LBJ is the GOAT will increase dramatically, and 2. GS will go into the books as the greatest historical chokers in the history of the league.

 

[tzznandrew]

I know I'll catch heat for this, but I actually think Klay is better than Irving. And I like Irving, and his ability to pick up slack whenever he damn well feels like it, especially in big moments.

I just think Klay is massively underutilized for GS, rightly so, as they have so many options. Klay on another team would command so much more respect league-wide imo.

I think that's fair.

 

[NielsisGood]

Surely with an entire offseason to train and change the strategy offensively and defensively they would be better off then their 4-19 record indicates. However, no Lebron means a much, much higher usage rate for Kyrie who's incredibly injury prone and what is now a mediocre defense becomes an absolute abomination. I think at best they'd be vying for the 7th or 8th spot in the east.

Kyrie isn't Harden by any means but any questions about his durability are overblown. The 5-8 spots in the east were a trainwreck and the Cavs with an average SF in place of LeBron still easily have a better roster than anyone but Celts/Raps/Wiz and again would have only needed to go 44-38 for the 4 seed.

 

[tzznandrew]

If Durant is so good, then why, with a guy as great as Westbrook on his arm, was he not able to do anything much?

Well, he went to the Finals in 2012 at 23 with 23-year-old Westbrook, and went through a ridiculously awesome Spurs team to get there. He hit all sorts of clutch shots, too.

Then, in 2013, Westbrook tore his meniscus
2014 they went to the Western Conference Finals, and were tied 2-2 before Ibaka got hurt.
2015 Durant only played 27 games
2016 his team was up 3-1 in the Western Conference Finals against a 73 win team, after beating a 67 win team. The idea that he "didn't do anything much" is crazy, considering he did just as well, if not better, than James's first stint in Cleveland despite being in the much more difficult Western Conference.

He's soft and overrated, and, like Curry, wilts when it matters. Both Curry and Durant suffer from being soft. They're both great during the season with 20 point leads. Crunch time, not so much. Curry to me will always be the enigmatic combination of the greatest shooter I ever saw, by a wide margin, and the guy who threw the ball away on a behind the back pass to Thompson at a critical juncture against the Cavs, causing Thompson to give the greatest WTF look, arms flop at sides look I have ever seen.

Curry was injured, and never really bounced back. We'll just disagree about "disappearing when it matters" when Durant has hit game winners in the playoffs.

Irving won the finals last year. If you were watching, you saw him destroy the Ws. Just destroyed them. His final 3 to win it when the game score was stalled for 4 minutes of regulation was just massive, and it capped off some of the greatest clutch play I've seen in the NBA. They guy is amazing, and he gets better as the pressure builds - he's like the anti-Curry in that regard.

He was great, but he didn't destroy the Warriors. He averaged 27ppg on 47% shooting. Very good performance offensively, and his shot was super clutch. But Curry was hurt, and we'll see how things look this year.

Again, I think it will be a good series. But I still think you're overhyping Irving.

 

[NielsisGood]

It's pretty nuts that anyone could look at Durant or Curry and think either guy is soft, Dwight Howard is soft. There was more pressure on this year's gsw team than anyone since the first LeBron Heat year and they largely dominated all season.

 

[Walker11]

If Durant is so good, then why, with a guy as great as Westbrook on his arm, was he not able to do anything much? He's soft and overrated, and, like Curry, wilts when it matters. Both Curry and Durant suffer from being soft. They're both great during the season with 20 point leads. Crunch time, not so much. Curry to me will always be the enigmatic combination of the greatest shooter I ever saw, by a wide margin, and the guy who threw the ball away on a behind the back pass to Thompson at a critical juncture against the Cavs, causing Thompson to give the greatest WTF look, arms flop at sides look I have ever seen.
GS is like some sort of weird rocky road ice cream with already too many different ingredients. Adding more ingredients is not the answer.
Curry is the best shooter ever and very overrated. He's not a good defender, he's not clutch, and he's not a strong leader. When his shot is not falling, as it wasn't when it mattered last year, he's a liability.
Thompson is awesome, a great defender and team player, and he might be the most underrated player in the league because of who he plays with.
Green is also awesome and a great leader for his team. He is the heart and soul of the Ws, and he's more important than any other player. He carried them at times last year.

Irving won the finals last year. If you were watching, you saw him destroy the Ws. Just destroyed them. His final 3 to win it when the game score was stalled for 4 minutes of regulation was just massive, and it capped off some of the greatest clutch play I've seen in the NBA. They guy is amazing, and he gets better as the pressure builds - he's like the anti-Curry in that regard.

LeBron is getting older, but he's got some gas left in the tank.

So I factor in those things to get the order. LeBron and Irving are the two best players on the court for the finals. If you want regular season wins, you go with Durant and Curry, I guess.

All the pressure is on the Warriors. Little or none on the Cavs. LBJ may have some, worrying about legacy. But nobody else. Coming in dogs.

The Warriors already have the distinction of dropping 2 games against a finals team running Delavedova at the point and for pulling off the greatest choke job in the history of the NBA. So now they add the freakiest Freak in the NBA, making them even stonger on paper. They've lost 1 game since March, or something crazy like that, playing against a broken western conference. Everybody has them winning it easily. Man, if they don't win in blowouts, the pressure is going to be massive. Massive. If they don't win it this year, it will have two effects - 1. The % of people saying LBJ is the GOAT will increase dramatically, and 2. GS will go into the books as the greatest historical chokers in the history of the league.

I hate to be harsh but when you have an opening take so bad, why would anyone read that brick of text? Waste of time. Kyrie over KD is asinine, not worth arguing, and disqualifies every other point you presumably try to make.

 

[MadDogRevival]

But Curry was hurt, and we'll see how things look this year. . . . . Again, I think it will be a good series. But I still think you're overhyping Irving.

Curry choked and shot 35% from 3 in the losses. The injury was the cover. How things "look this year" is Curry shot 41% from 3 over the season, the worst of his career, and tied for 20th in the league. That's with Kevin soft-serve Durant there to allegedly spread the offense and make it even easier for Curry to shoot 3s.

So what's going on with that? The guy's regular season dropped from MVP, unbelievable levels to . . . excellent. But he's clearly not the same player he was when he was at his moon shot just a year ago.

So is it subtraction by addition? Did Durant's addition cause Curry's decline? Is the offense less smooth? Less amenable to Curry's game? Or did Curry just have a sizable drop off? If so, Why?

We'll see if he can redeem himself this year.

 

[the Q]

It's pretty nuts that anyone could look at Durant or Curry and think either guy is soft, Dwight Howard is soft. There was more pressure on this year's gsw team than anyone since the first LeBron Heat year and they largely dominated all season.

Did no one watch the 09 ecfs?

 

[champs99and04]

Did anybody else prefer the 2-3-2 series format? I think it makes for more drama most years because you're maximizing the chances of the series going at least six by giving the underdog an additional home game.

Incidentally, last season was not one of those years - the change in format helped the Cavs enormously because they were able to steal a game in Oracle without Draymond.

 

[intlzncster]

Did anybody else prefer the 2-3-2 series format? I think it makes for more drama most years because you're maximizing the chances of the series going at least six by giving the underdog an additional home game.

Incidentally, last season was not one of those years - the change in format helped the Cavs enormously because they were able to steal a game in Oracle without Draymond.

I prefer the new one on principal (home team advantage), but what really gets my goat is the 6 weeks off between series.

 

[NielsisGood]

I prefer the new one on principal (home team advantage), but what really gets my goat is the 6 weeks off between series.

That and game 1 being on Thursday and game 2 being on Sunday, because clearly both teams are worn down and beat up and need that extra day of rest with no travel.

 

[kobe]

That and game 1 being on Thursday and game 2 being on Sunday, because clearly both teams are worn down and beat up and need that extra day of rest with no travel.

Thursday and Sunday nights get the best TV ratings.

 

[MSGSeven]

I know I'll catch heat for this, but I actually think Klay is better than Irving. And I like Irving, and his ability to pick up slack whenever he damn well feels like it, especially in big moments.

I just think Klay is massively underutilized for GS, rightly so, as they have so many options. Klay on another team would command so much more respect league-wide imo.

Klay better than Irving??? Gonna have to respectfully disagree with you on that one. Both play with great players so that cancels each other out but Irving is a very dynamic and talented ball handler and scorer. Klay is a great shooter and scorer but can't do the same things on a basketball court as Irving. It definitely showed in last year's finals and I think Cleveland would've won two years ago if Irving didn't get hurt.

 

[NielsisGood]

Thursday and Sunday nights get the best TV ratings.

This series would draw huge numbers if you had the games on a Tuesday morning at 4am. People get together and watch sporting events on Saturday nights too, that's why there's major college football games and boxing/UFC PPVs.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Klay better than Irving??? Gonna have to respectfully disagree with you on that one. Both play with great players so that cancels each other out but Irving is a very dynamic and talented ball handler and scorer. Klay is a great shooter and scorer but can't do the same things on a basketball court as Irving. It definitely showed in last year's finals and I think Cleveland would've won two years ago if Irving didn't get hurt.

Klay is twice the defender and this game is still played on both ends.