NBA Post-Season Thread

[MilliniumPrince]

People forget Jordan's early years ended in playoff failure. That is the nature of legends. The farther away you get from the story, the greater the positive details appear. LeBron has never been swept in a playoff series. He didn't have the same level of stability and quality of coaching Jordan had. Jordan had Doug Collins and Phil Jackson. Lebron has gone to the Finals with Mike Brown, Erik Spoelstra, David Blatt, and Ty Lue....every coach he has ever had except Paul Silas. That alone should improve Lebron's case.

People remember that great game when MJ score 63 against Boston. What they forget is he lost both that game and that series. It is a fun debate, and these two are clearly the best non-centers in the history of the game. I would happily build a franchise around either. But to say Lebron has no shot of passing MJ, when his career isn't over is shortsighted.

 

[NielsisGood]

People forget Jordan's early years ended in playoff failure. That is the nature of legends. The farther away you get from the story, the greater the positive details appear. LeBron has never been swept in a playoff series. He didn't have the same level of stability and quality of coaching Jordan had. Jordan had Doug Collins and Phil Jackson. Lebron has gone to the Finals with Mike Brown, Erik Spoelstra, David Blatt, and Ty Lue....every coach he has ever had except Paul Silas. That alone should improve Lebron's case.

People remember that great game when MJ score 63 against Boston. What they forget is he lost both that game and that series. It is a fun debate, and these two are clearly the best non-centers in the history of the game. I would happily build a franchise around either. But to say Lebron has no shot of passing MJ, when his career isn't over is shortsighted.

Literally nobody forgets that MJ was losing to historically great Celts and Pistons teams early in his career and had some ridiculous scoring efforts trying to put the team on his back during those few years. Dude hung 63 points on 53% shooting against one of the greatest teams ever and you're trying to demean that.

LeBron was swept in the 07 NBA finals, and he orchestrated nearly every coaching change that has ever happened on his teams. Lebron also had Pat Riley when he was in Miami.

 

[JSM1970]

Ok, with a week until the Finals start....how about listing our top 10 redrafting basketball history

1) 'Bron
2) MJ
3) Wilt
4) Magic
5) Shaq
6) Kareem
7) Larry Legend
8)Hakeem
9) Kobe
10) Duncan

Next 5 in no order: Big O, Moses, Mailman, Russell, Elgin

Potential to breakin still playing: KD, Steph, Kawhi

 

[intlzncster]

I doubt it, but no way if MJ played in this 3 PT era

I love MJ, but would draft LeBron over him immediately, 'Bron can play and defend any position on the floor

He's in the simplest terms a much more athletic and skilled version of Magic, and many consider Magic one of the top 5-10 of all time

Really? With today's rules? MJ would've dominated. He put up those numbers in the most physical, exhausting, punishing NBA we've ever seen. If you couldn't touch him, he'd average 40ppg. He was damn near unguardable then...magine now.

Jordan's mental superiority would crush it in this era. He'd wrap Lebron's mind in a pretzel. The only modern player (who bridged the gap) close is Kobe in that regard. People give short shrift to mental makeup, but it's always been my contention that this is the most important thing for a top athlete. It separates the greatest. I'll refrain discussing Brady in this thought, but I could.

jmo

 

[intlzncster]

Federer is the best tennis player of all-time.

Early in Jordan's career he was kept from the finals by the Bird, McHale, Parish Celtics and the Pistons bad boys (before he vanquished them and never looked back) two of the best teams of all-time.

When Jordan made it to the big show he dispatched and won MVP every time going through the Magic Worthy Lakers, Drexler Trailblazers, Barkley Suns, Payton Kemp Sonics, and Stockton Malone Jazz...that's not exactly chopped liver.

Let's not forget guys like Olajuwon either...

JSM is on crack with his argument. Given the physicality, I think it was harder to win titles back in the day than now. Today's rules favor the superstars to a greater degree.

 

[intlzncster]

Ok, with a week until the Finals start....how about listing our top 10 redrafting basketball history

1) 'Bron
2) MJ
3) Wilt
4) Magic
5) Shaq
6) Kareem
7) Larry Legend
8)Hakeem
9) Kobe
10) Duncan

Next 5 in no order: Big O, Moses, Mailman, Russell, Elgin

Potential to breakin still playing: KD, Steph, Kawhi

Would kill to be picking number 2 in that draft.

As an outlier, if we are talking about drafting from a young age on, Arvydas Sabonis would be in my Top 3. Combo of Shaq and Walton with 3pt shooting. He'd be challenging for best ever.

 

[MadDogRevival]

Really? With today's rules? MJ would've dominated. He put up those numbers in the most physical, exhausting, punishing NBA we've ever seen.

Maybe. But he was the savior of the NBA and my recollection, watching his whole career, was that got a very, very favorable whistle.
Also, his 3 point shooting wasn't great, so his ability to use today's rules wouldn't be as pronounced.
Of course, that's not fair, in a way, because the 3 point shot was not emphasized like it is now. If he grew up in the 2000s, he would likely have been a better 3 point shooter, so . . .

 

[MadDogRevival]

How many concussions have you had and what is the extent of your brain damage?

I was being serious.
I'm trying to understand your perspective. It would help me if I knew when you started watching BBall and how old you were.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Literally nobody forgets that MJ was losing to historically great Celts and Pistons teams early in his career and had some ridiculous scoring efforts trying to put the team on his back during those few years. Dude hung 63 points on 53% shooting against one of the greatest teams ever and you're trying to demean that.

LeBron was swept in the 07 NBA finals, and he orchestrated nearly every coaching change that has ever happened on his teams. Lebron also had Pat Riley when he was in Miami.

The 07 Team was him and a bunch of nobodies. Exactly how many games did Riley coach when Lebron was in Miami? I must have missed those games.

 

[NielsisGood]

The 07 Team was him and a bunch of nobodies. Exactly how many games did Riley coach when Lebron was in Miami? I must have missed those games.

Guy I responded to said LeBron has never been swept in the playoffs so I responded.

Riley was obviously heavily involved with how those Miami teams were coached and how they played. Spolestra was almost a proxy for Riley.

 

[champs99and04]

You're joking if you think I'm going to waste my time writing more paragraphs repeating the same information I put into my last post when you clearly don't want to listen to reason. Wade's numbers were about as good as you can reasonably expect on a per usage basis throughout that entire 4 year run, save for maybe the final 2 games in 2014, which again we both 20 point blowouts.


The bizarre masturbatory recanting of the Spurs teams those 2 years were a fun read though. The team had hardly any depth, 0 athleticism outside of Parker and Kawhi, and probably not even a single player who would have been considered among the top 15 in the league in either of those 2 years (certainly not top 10). They're not a historically great team just because you liked watching them play and are apparently infatuated with Danny Green.




Also just wanted to briefly respond to this. MJ was 21 and in his rookie season in that series vs the Bucks you referenced. MJ averaged 29-6-8 with 2.8 spg and 1 bpg while playing 43 mpg.

Also MJ against the Pistons:

1988: 1988 NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals - Chicago Bulls vs. Detroit Pistons | Basketball-Reference.com


1989: 1989 NBA Eastern Conference Finals - Chicago Bulls vs. Detroit Pistons | Basketball-Reference.com


1990: 1990 NBA Eastern Conference Finals - Chicago Bulls vs. Detroit Pistons | Basketball-Reference.com


Couple things about those series and those Pistons playoff runs. First is that even those Pistons teams that were some of the best and most physical defensive teams of all time couldn't really MJ. Second is that between the 89-90 Pistons title runs, MJ beat them in the playoffs 5 times, the Pistons lost 2 other games over both postseasons combined.


Sorry to spoil the cute little narrative you thought you had going there.

Unless I am thinking of a different Michael Jeffery Jordan he was born in February of 1963 and therefore 22 in the spring of 1985.

As for your other points, you're mostly putting words in my mouth. I never called the '13 or '14 Spurs a super team, but I also don't subscribe to your method of determining quality by counting the amount of sexy names on the roster (and I know that's over-simplifying your position, but still). I also never implied anything about Jordan's performances against Detroit other than that they were below his standards. My larger point was that the overall trajectories of their careers is a bit distorted because Jordan played three years in college to LeBron's zero.

One thing I will address is the idea that Tim Duncan wasn't a top 10 or even top 15 player in 2013 and 2014. He absolutely was and your downplaying of his impact while you puff up a back nine Wade is bizarre. Whatever infatuation I have with Danny Green is only because he shot out his ass in twelve finals games against Miami.

Incidentally, I also struggle to reconcile the prevailing belief that LeBron wouldn't have adapted to the more physical era as well as Jordan. Why would somebody bigger and stronger than Jordan not have thrived? If the logic is that Jordan's skills were his best attribute while LeBron's athleticism is his, then wouldn't an increase in contact amplify the advantages of being a freak of nature? I think one of the great untold stories of LeBron's career is what his post game could have become in a different era. The power post game cannot exist in today's NBA like it did when Shaq was at the height of his power and LeBron is one of the biggest victims of that.

 

[NielsisGood]

Unless I am thinking of a different Michael Jeffery Jordan he was born in February of 1963 and therefore 22 in the spring of 1985.

As for your other points, you're mostly putting words in my mouth. I never called the '13 or '14 Spurs a super team, but I also don't subscribe to your method of determining quality by counting the amount of sexy names on the roster (and I know that's over-simplifying your position, but still). I also never implied anything about Jordan's performances against Detroit other than that they were below his standards. My larger point was that the overall trajectories of their careers is a bit distorted because Jordan played three years in college to LeBron's zero.

One thing I will address is the idea that Tim Duncan wasn't a top 10 or even top 15 player in 2013 and 2014. He absolutely was and your downplaying of his impact while you puff up a back nine Wade is bizarre. Whatever infatuation I have with Danny Green is only because he shot out his ass in twelve finals games against Miami.

Incidentally, I also struggle to reconcile the prevailing belief that LeBron wouldn't have adapted to the more physical era as well as Jordan. Why would somebody bigger and stronger than Jordan not have thrived? If the logic is that Jordan's skills were his best attribute while LeBron's athleticism is his, then wouldn't an increase in contact amplify the advantages of being a freak of nature? I think one of the great untold stories of LeBron's career is what his post game could have become in a different era. The power post game cannot exist in today's NBA like it did when Shaq was at the height of his power and LeBron is one of the biggest victims of that.

MJ was 21 in that series, you are wrong: http://www.basketball-reference.com...rn-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-bucks.html

You've been one of the people trying to call that 2 year Spurs run an all time great team when they simply aren't.

Did you even click any of the links to those 3 playoff series? You have legitimately 0 argument to make that MJ played markedly below his standards.

Duncan was not a top 10-15 player at that time, but feel free to point out any relevant statistics that say otherwise: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_leaders.html

The difference between what I said about Wade and what you're saying about Duncan are that I'm actually providing stats to back my opinions up. You're just providing anecdotes.


Not sure why you're quoting me and including the bit about the eras MJ and LeBron played in. I haven't said a word about that.

 

[superjohn]

Unless I am thinking of a different Michael Jeffery Jordan he was born in February of 1963 and therefore 22 in the spring of 1985.

As for your other points, you're mostly putting words in my mouth. I never called the '13 or '14 Spurs a super team, but I also don't subscribe to your method of determining quality by counting the amount of sexy names on the roster (and I know that's over-simplifying your position, but still). I also never implied anything about Jordan's performances against Detroit other than that they were below his standards. My larger point was that the overall trajectories of their careers is a bit distorted because Jordan played three years in college to LeBron's zero.

One thing I will address is the idea that Tim Duncan wasn't a top 10 or even top 15 player in 2013 and 2014. He absolutely was and your downplaying of his impact while you puff up a back nine Wade is bizarre. Whatever infatuation I have with Danny Green is only because he shot out his ass in twelve finals games against Miami.

Incidentally, I also struggle to reconcile the prevailing belief that LeBron wouldn't have adapted to the more physical era as well as Jordan. Why would somebody bigger and stronger than Jordan not have thrived? If the logic is that Jordan's skills were his best attribute while LeBron's athleticism is his, then wouldn't an increase in contact amplify the advantages of being a freak of nature? I think one of the great untold stories of LeBron's career is what his post game could have become in a different era. The power post game cannot exist in today's NBA like it did when Shaq was at the height of his power and LeBron is one of the biggest victims of that.

If you think it was all about skills and athleticism with Jordan, you are getting it all wrong. Simply put Jordan is by far the greatest competitor I've ever seen. It's what made him punch teammates in the face and what made him great, he simply would not lose.

Lebron is amazing, he has all the size, speed, strength and skills in the world but I've never gotten that insane type of competetiveness from him. Jordan was maniacal in that regard.

 

[tzznandrew]

MJ was 21 in that series, you are wrong: http://www.basketball-reference.com...rn-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-bucks.html

He's not wrong here. Basketball-reference only puts one age of the player for the whole season stats. Jordan was born in February 1963. The series in question was in April 1985. Jordan was indeed 22 regardless of what basketball-reference says here.

LeBron was born in December of 1984. He debuted as a an 18 year old in October of 2003 and turned 19 in his rookie year, but basketball-reference only has him as 19.

 

[Scottzer]

Simply put, MJ had a hunger to win that hasn't been matched in the sport since. Maybe Russell should get credit in this regard, too, but he's way before my time. The only other athletes who have dominated in my lifetime to the extent that MJ did would be Gretzky, Tiger, Federer, Serena, Phelps, and Brady. To a large degree (team sport that isn't ridiculously dominated by one position) - WG is, in my mind, the fairest comparison. And, LJ just isn't quite there. He's damn good.

There was a hardness in the character of athletes (and the general population) that just isn't present in the newer generation (handful of exceptions). It felt like the chip on MJ's shoulder for having been cut from his HS team as a freshman just never went away. But, by the 1990s it seemed that a kid would transfer rather than face the competition.

 

[intlzncster]

There was a hardness in the character of athletes (and the general population) that just isn't present in the newer generation (handful of exceptions). It felt like the chip on MJ's shoulder for having been cut from his HS team as a freshman just never went away. But, by the 1990s it seemed that a kid would transfer rather than face the competition.

I've said it before in this thread, but the last hold out in that regard was Kobe. Just played with a nastiness you don't see much anymore.

 

[BUConn10]

Simply put, MJ had a hunger to win that hasn't been matched in the sport since. Maybe Russell should get credit in this regard, too, but he's way before my time. The only other athletes who have dominated in my lifetime to the extent that MJ did would be Gretzky, Tiger, Federer, Serena, Phelps, and Brady. To a large degree (team sport that isn't ridiculously dominated by one position) - WG is, in my mind, the fairest comparison. And, LJ just isn't quite there. He's damn good.

There was a hardness in the character of athletes (and the general population) that just isn't present in the newer generation (handful of exceptions). It felt like the chip on MJ's shoulder for having been cut from his HS team as a freshman just never went away. But, by the 1990s it seemed that a kid would transfer rather than face the competition.

This is the exact argument that makes me laugh at the old school heads who vowed half way into his career that Lebron won't come close to MJ.

The "toughness" measurement, Kobe fans used it liberally as well.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Ok, with a week until the Finals start....how about listing our top 10 redrafting basketball history

1) 'Bron
2) MJ
3) Wilt
4) Magic
5) Shaq
6) Kareem
7) Larry Legend
8)Hakeem
9) Kobe
10) Duncan

Next 5 in no order: Big O, Moses, Mailman, Russell, Elgin

Potential to breakin still playing: KD, Steph, Kawhi

Solid list. I would only disagree on one. I would replace him with Oscar or Dr. J.

Look at the career FG% on that list. One guy will stand out.

 

[the Q]

Literally nobody forgets that MJ was losing to historically great Celts and Pistons teams early in his career and had some ridiculous scoring efforts trying to put the team on his back during those few years. Dude hung 63 points on 53% shooting against one of the greatest teams ever and you're trying to demean that.

LeBron was swept in the 07 NBA finals, and he orchestrated nearly every coaching change that has ever happened on his teams. Lebron also had Pat Riley when he was in Miami.

The 07 Cavs were Lebron and an expansion team. And he dragged them to the finals.

 

[BUConn10]

The 07 Cavs were Lebron and an expansion team. And he dragged them to the finals.

One of his more underrated legacy feats.

That team would have won maybe 20 games without him.

The core of the recent NBA-Durant parity debate is that Durant, a top 3 player in the league, joined a team that without him went on to a 73-9 all-time record season, just to compete with the King. Meanwhile Lebron is leading a "superteam" that the year he won wouldn't have come close to 25 wins without him. It's a huge difference. Literally anywhere Lebron goes is a favorite to reach the finals.

 

[the Q]

One of his more underrated legacy feats.

That team would have won maybe 20 games without him.

The core of the recent NBA-Durant parity debate is that Durant, a top 3 player in the league, joined a team that without him went on to a 73-9 all-time record season, just to compete with the King. Meanwhile Lebron is leading a "superteam" that the year he won wouldn't have come close to 25 wins without him. It's a huge difference. Literally anywhere Lebron goes is a favorite to reach the finals.

I was just talking to my friend about this today.

If Kelly Olynyk doesn't cheap shot Love and rip his arm off.....the Cavs probably win in 2015 too.

The Dubs are ringless....does Durant even go there? How do we view the Warriors now? What is Steph's legeacy?

Moral of the story? Kelly Olynyk stopped Lebron when no one else could.

 

[JSM1970]

More about Kyrie getting hurt in game 1 of Finals and going down

Kyrie is the best pure offensive player in the NBA

Can't wait until Thurs, this should be fun

I was just talking to my friend about this today.

If Kelly Olynyk doesn't cheap shot Love and rip his arm off.....the Cavs probably win in 2015 too.

The Dubs are ringless....does Durant even go there? How do we view the Warriors now? What is Steph's legeacy?

Moral of the story? Kelly Olynyk stopped Lebron when no one else could.

 

[BUConn10]

I love the NBA.

 

[the Q]

More about Kyrie getting hurt in game 1 of Finals and going down

Kyrie is the best pure offensive player in the NBA

Can't wait until Thurs, this should be fun

So it's Iman Shumpert's fault.

 

[NielsisGood]

He's not wrong here. Basketball-reference only puts one age of the player for the whole season stats. Jordan was born in February 1963. The series in question was in April 1985. Jordan was indeed 22 regardless of what basketball-reference says here.

LeBron was born in December of 1984. He debuted as a an 18 year old in October of 2003 and turned 19 in his rookie year, but basketball-reference only has him as 19.

Idk man, I'm the one with a link to confirm.

The 07 Cavs were Lebron and an expansion team. And he dragged them to the finals.

The only team of any consequence he had to beat was a slightly past their prime Pistons squad that never had a superstar to begin with. Sure, LeBron turned the Cavs from a would be dumpster fire into a respectable team, but that's not really much different from what Russ Westbrook did this year.