NBA Post-Season Thread

[Rocktheworld]

As great as he is, when people start talking about goat status, they really need to take a few things into consideration. Like how crazy stacked every one of his teams have been since he went to Miami.

Hes had two all NBA type guys on his team. And then a ton of very good role players for the last 6 years.

And what did Jordan accomplish before he had two HoFers at his sides?

And how he hasn't had to beat a legit team to go to the finals in years (since the celtics big 3).

Actually this speaks to LeBron's dominance moreso than the East's weakness. Take him out of the East, the whole conference is wide open. Within the East, you put him on any team, they go from missing the playoffs to instant favorites. You put him on just about any team in the West, and they are instant contenders. That's not the East being weak; it's a testament to how great LeBron is in this era.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Schadenfreude against LeBron is a flat out waste of time and a guarantee to make basketball far less enjoyable to watch. He's great, his teams have been great, he wins, he performs and in 15yrs in spotlight the Decision is the only true stain on his resume.

Last night was a very entertaining game except the 4th Q. Celtics toughness finally showed up in games 3 & 4 and they made the Cavs play great to beat them. Kyrie responded big time when LeBron was in foul trouble - I wish I was rooting for Kyrie b/c those were some unbelievable drives/shots.

I'm torn between wanting 2 more Celtics games and wanting the finals to be competitive. I agree that if this series goes 6 the Cavs chances vs the Warriors drop off considerably. Not sure what was going on in games 1 and 2, but if the Celtics of games 3 & 4 show up Thursday night its going to take another superhuman Kyrie or LeBron effort to prevent a game 6. Should be fun.

I like the Warriors to win regardless, but it'll likely go 7 if Cavs are rested. And IF BOTH the Kyrie of last night and optimal LeBron show up for 4 games the Cavs have a legitimate chance. Knock off the Warriors 2 straight years and LeBron's legacy and rep will rival Jordan's for sure.

 

[gtcam]

Schadenfreude against LeBron is a flat out waste of time and a guarantee to make basketball far less enjoyable to watch. He's great, his teams have been great, he wins, he performs and in 15yrs in spotlight the Decision is the only true stain on his resume.

Last night was a very entertaining game except the 4th Q. Celtics toughness finally showed up in games 3 & 4 and they made the Cavs play great to beat them. Kyrie responded big time when LeBron was in foul trouble - I wish I was rooting for Kyrie b/c those were some unbelievable drives/shots.

I'm torn between wanting 2 more Celtics games and wanting the finals to be competitive. I agree that if this series goes 6 the Cavs chances vs the Warriors drop off considerably. Not sure what was going on in games 1 and 2, but if the Celtics of games 3 & 4 show up Thursday night its going to take another superhuman Kyrie or LeBron effort to prevent a game 6. Should be fun.

I like the Warriors to win regardless, but it'll likely go 7 if Cavs are rested. And IF BOTH the Kyrie of last night and optimal LeBron show up for 4 games the Cavs have a legitimate chance. Knock off the Warriors 2 straight years and LeBron's legacy and rep will rival Jordan's for sure.

I agree with your statements here, but, like MJ, The King has been surrounded by at least two other All League talent at every stop (except early Cleveland years - and we saw those team results) he has made. Not many (except some of Bird's Celtics and Magic's Lakers teams, in recent 40 years) can say that they shared that luxury.
I am not saying The King is not a great great player BUT I wonder out loud would we view him the same if he played on the run of the mill teams?

 

[Dogdeacon]

I agree with your statements here, but, like MJ, The King has been surrounded by at least two other All League talent at every stop (except early Cleveland years - and we saw those team results) he has made. Not many (except some of Bird's Celtics and Magic's Lakers teams, in recent 40 years) can say that they shared that luxury.
I am not saying The King is not a great great player BUT I wonder out loud would we view him the same if he played on the run of the mill teams?

No, but it doesn't matter. Part of what makes LeBron great is that he's a great passer so it was a criminal waste of LeBron's skills when he was passing to Daniel Gibson. Part of what has made him great is he knows this and has taken a big role in selecting, building, or demanding roster moves. But its no different basketball wise than saying Magic Johnson wouldn't be great if he didn't have Worthy, Kareem & Byron Scott. Virtually every game LeBron makes a crazy next level pass that no one else can see or have the strength to make and it finds a gunner* right in the pocket rising up to shoot.

*PS this was my argument on why it was a no-brainer for Ray Allen to join LeBron. Its akin to playing first violin with a great conductor or bass guitar in a band next to the greatest lead guitarist ever or returning to competition, a free agent receiver wanting to play with the best QB. LeBron surrounded by great shooters rises all boats and we should appreciate that basketball virtuosity moreso than wonder if he'd be as great if surrounded by 4 Dellavadovas. Only Yoko thought the Beatles were better separated

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

And what did Jordan accomplish before he had two HoFers at his sides?


Actually this speaks to LeBron's dominance moreso than the East's weakness. Take him out of the East, the whole conference is wide open. Within the East, you put him on any team, they go from missing the playoffs to instant favorites. You put him on just about any team in the West, and they are instant contenders. That's not the East being weak; it's a testament to how great LeBron is in this era.

On your first point, look at the teams Jordan was facing. And compare them to the teams Lebron has faced. ha

And on your next points, I agree. Iv'e acknowledged Lebron's greatness. The guy is incredible. And you are correct, you could put him on most teams in the East and they would make the finals. And that is definitely a testament to his greatness. But that also doesn't mean the east hasn't been garbage. The George Hill run Pacers are probably the toughest team hes had to face since the Celtics big 3. That's pretty weak.

My initial point was that everybody seems to ignore the context to Lebron's dominance. Guy is dominant for sure. But I think it would make sense to include the teams hes played on and who hes had to play against in that argument. Just look at last night. He goes out and Kyrie takes over. Love has taken over games this postseason. JR is capable of going off. Even Kyle Korver. Lebron has a ton of talent on his team. And hes playing a team full of strong role players in a great system. That is all.

If you are arguing that the East hasn't been weak, then I think you are way off.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I am not saying The King is not a great great player BUT I wonder out loud would we view him the same if he played on the run of the mill teams?

We have a good idea already.

Over LeBron's first stint in Cleveland, his second-best player was Zydrunas Ilgauskas. He took that team from 17 to 34 wins instantly at age 18, then to 42 wins, then in year 4 was in the NBA Finals. Then he left and the team immediately goes back to 19 wins. That wasn't a run-of-the-mill team; his teams were awful, with a poor coach to boot, and had no business sniffing any success. And he took them to a finals and multiple conference finals, when he wasn't even peaking.

When Jordan left his Bulls, they won 3 fewer games. LeBron has one bad half in game 3, and these Cavs blow a 21 point lead to an IT-less Celtics at home.

 

[MadDogRevival]

We have a good idea already. . . .

This is the point that most LeBron detractors and haters like to ignore. Can there be any doubt that the group of bums that LeBron dragged to the finals was the worst 2 through 12 roster in the history of the NBA? In order of minutes played . . . Hughes, Gooden, Ilgauskas, Varejao, Snow, Pavlovic, and so on. Really. Try to list the 1st names of all 6.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

The King has been surrounded by at least two other All League talent at every stop (except early Cleveland years - and we saw those team results)

Yeah, he took them to the Finals. Not a bad result. The idea that Lebron of all people has to be surrounded with stars is about as insane a basketball-related take as I can conceive of.

 

[champs99and04]

LeBron gets a lot of calls because he's LeBron, but much like Shaq, I think it works both ways. It's kind of like Gronkowski in football where opponents get away with more contact than they would otherwise just because it doesn't seem to impede him.

 

[superjohn]

Yeah, he took them to the Finals. Not a bad result. The idea that Lebron of all people has to be surrounded with stars is about as insane a basketball-related take as I can conceive of.

He has to be surrounded by stars to win the championship. I don't see how that can possibly be disputed.

 

[NielsisGood]

Lot of people huffing the LeBron fumes in here. Dude completely vanished in the 2011 finals and needed a miracle shot by Ray to not lose 2 straight finals to an almost entirely over the hill Spurs team. Settle down on the GOAT talk for now.

 

[champs99and04]

"Almost entirely over the hill Spurs team" is an awfully interesting way to describe one of the best teams in recent memory. People also tend to forget how erratic D-Wade was from the first title on. In the 2014 finals, LeBron was completely outgunned.

As for the miracle shot by Ray, I'm pretty sure Tony Parker hit an equally miraculous shot a minute or two earlier to put the Spurs ahead. Nobody ever talks about that, nor do they talk about the fact that he scored 14 points in the fourth quarter to help erase a 13 point deficit.

The only one you can put on him is 2011, and he made up for that last year.

 

[NielsisGood]

You're delusional if you think those Spurs teams were somehow loaded from a talent perspective. You're just saying that to pump the air in Lebron's tires, just like you tried to blame Wade for somehow being erratic even though his %'s were as good as they've always been and he was just managing his regular season load (the way LeBron did the last 2 months of this season) and playing as the 2nd option on a team that never finished higher than 5th in PPG. Let's at least be realistic here, like I was by not blaming LeBron for any failures in his first Cleveland stint, for 2 years ago, or for his bizarre disappearance Sunday night.

 

[HuskyHawk]

He has to be surrounded by stars to win the championship. I don't see how that can possibly be disputed.

Everyone does. It's not a Lebron thing. While it is the most star driven professional sport of all of them, it's still a team game. The changes in the salary cap in recent years have had the effect of consolidating talent to an even greater degree. They need to adjust it. Lebron wouldn't need Love and Irving if no other team could afford three players like that, but they can, so he does.

 

[champs99and04]

You're delusional if you think those Spurs teams were somehow loaded from a talent perspective. You're just saying that to pump the air in Lebron's tires, just like you tried to blame Wade for somehow being erratic even though his %'s were as good as they've always been and he was just managing his regular season load (the way LeBron did the last 2 months of this season) and playing as the 2nd option on a team that never finished higher than 5th in PPG. Let's at least be realistic here, like I was by not blaming LeBron for any failures in his first Cleveland stint, for 2 years ago, or for his bizarre disappearance Sunday night.

You don't remember "what's wrong with D-Wade?" becoming an annual thing those last couple years? There was nothing wrong with his regular season, it was the playoffs where he faded big time in '13 and '14. '13 playoffs he averaged 16, 5, and 5 on 46% shooting and 3.6 FTA per game. '14 playoffs he was slightly better but awful in the finals.

I just went back and watched highlights from game 6 of the '13 finals and the crew that was on the floor for the Heat when they made their run in the fourth boggled my mind. It was LeBron, 37-year-old Ray Allen, 33-year-old Mike Miller, 34-year-old Shane Battier, and Mario Chalmers. Two of those guys would retire a year later, one of them went on to become a career backup point guard, and the other could barely walk. Somehow LeBron overcame a double digit point deficit with those guys sharing the floor with him in crunch time during the highest leverage situation imaginable (and he made plenty of mistakes down the stretch, don't get me wrong).

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth regarding those previous finals, but I don't think it's pumping his tires to describe that as an all-time great performance. (It's worth mentioning, even as somebody who thinks D-Wade is the second best two guard of all-time, that he was never an ideal fit with LeBron). Ultimately, I'd rank LeBron's playoff moments something like this:

1. Games 5-7 against Golden State '16
2. 29 straight against Detroit '07
3. Games 6-7 against San Antonio '13
4. Game 6 in Boston '12
5. Game 7 in Boston '08
6. '09 conference finals vs. Orlando
7. '15 finals against Golden State

You could re-arrange the order some and I wouldn't argue, but to me #1 and #3 are the first mentioned on his tombstone. That - along with possibly this year - will be where the argument starts if he ever passes Jordan.

 

[NielsisGood]

You don't remember "what's wrong with D-Wade?" becoming an annual thing those last couple years? There was nothing wrong with his regular season, it was the playoffs where he faded big time in '13 and '14. '13 playoffs he averaged 16, 5, and 5 on 46% shooting and 3.6 FTA per game. '14 playoffs he was slightly better but awful in the finals.

I just went back and watched highlights from game 6 of the '13 finals and the crew that was on the floor for the Heat when they made their run in the fourth boggled my mind. It was LeBron, 37-year-old Ray Allen, 33-year-old Mike Miller, 34-year-old Shane Battier, and Mario Chalmers. Two of those guys would retire a year later, one of them went on to become a career backup point guard, and the other could barely walk. Somehow LeBron overcame a double digit point deficit with those guys sharing the floor with him in crunch time during the highest leverage situation imaginable (and he made plenty of mistakes down the stretch, don't get me wrong).

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth regarding those previous finals, but I don't think it's pumping his tires to describe that as an all-time great performance. (It's worth mentioning, even as somebody who thinks D-Wade is the second best two guard of all-time, that he was never an ideal fit with LeBron). Ultimately, I'd rank LeBron's playoff moments something like this:

1. Games 5-7 against Golden State '16
2. 29 straight against Detroit '07
3. Games 6-7 against San Antonio '13
4. Game 6 in Boston '12
5. Game 7 in Boston '08
6. '09 conference finals vs. Orlando
7. '15 finals against Golden State

You could re-arrange the order some and I wouldn't argue, but to me #1 and #3 are the first mentioned on his tombstone. That - along with possibly this year - will be where the argument starts if he ever passes Jordan.

The narrative wasn't "What's wrong with D-Wade", it was "The Heat are managing his minutes to save him for the playoffs". He also didn't "fade in the playoffs" given that the 46% he shot in the postseason that year is only 1 less than his 47% career mark, and the lower FTAs were due to generally having the ball in his hand less, as evidenced by the 5% drop in usage and 5 less FGA that season. He really only had a poor final 2 games against the Spurs, but both games were nearly 20-point blowouts anyways so can't really pin that solely on Wade.

I can't really take your talking about a specific portion of a game where the Heat had 2 of their big 3 resting on the bench against a Spurs team that basically played 7 guys in games 6-7 of the 13 finals, 2 of those were a 36 year old Duncan and a 35 year old Manu, 2 more being Gary Neal and Boris Diaw's fat tits. You also didn't mention Parker going 6-23 in game 6 or Parker & Danny Green combining for 4-24 in game 7. Stop selectively picking your anecdotal Lebron memories to build your case on, you sound so very much like Brian Windhorst when you do that.


Thing with listing Lebron's great achievements is that you can list nearly as many black marks that hurt his case:

1. Getting completely destroyed in the 07 finals even though the games themselves were much closer than anyone remembers

2. Giving up against the Celts in 2010

3. Relocating to build his original super team (I actually blame him more for going back to Cleveland when this super team started to age but this is still a point of contention for many people)

4. His complete meltdown in the 2011 finals

5. Leaving his partially aging super team to go back to Cleveland under the condition that they restack the deck in his favor

6. Being 3-4 in his 7 NBA finals series. Even forgiving the 07 finals he'd still be at .500, name me another top 3, 5, or 10 player (who didn't come from the Bill Russell era) with such a mediocre finals record.


Adding everything up, It's hard to make any serious argument for LeBron over MJ unless James leads his teams to another couple titles.

 

[bballgrda]

The '14 Spurs were an all time great team. Don't think there is a better example of ball movement out there.

 

[NielsisGood]

The '14 Spurs were an all time great team. Don't think there is a better example of ball movement out there.

Talent wise they were not. That team winning the title was a combination of being the first successful team with that 3 & D ball movement style of play that the Warriors have gone on to master over the last 3 seasons. Their only core player that you could make a case for being in their prime was Parker. That team winning the title was really affirmation that Pops might he the best basketball coach ever.

Nobody is going to mention that Spurs team 20 years from now alongside the likes of Bird/Magic, MJ, (most likely) this current Warriors team, or even the Isiah Pistons teams or Shaq and Kobe.

 

[superjohn]

Everyone does. It's not a Lebron thing. While it is the most star driven professional sport of all of them, it's still a team game. The changes in the salary cap in recent years have had the effect of consolidating talent to an even greater degree. They need to adjust it. Lebron wouldn't need Love and Irving if no other team could afford three players like that, but they can, so he does.

Agreed.

 

[superjohn]

You don't remember "what's wrong with D-Wade?" becoming an annual thing those last couple years? There was nothing wrong with his regular season, it was the playoffs where he faded big time in '13 and '14. '13 playoffs he averaged 16, 5, and 5 on 46% shooting and 3.6 FTA per game. '14 playoffs he was slightly better but awful in the finals.

I just went back and watched highlights from game 6 of the '13 finals and the crew that was on the floor for the Heat when they made their run in the fourth boggled my mind. It was LeBron, 37-year-old Ray Allen, 33-year-old Mike Miller, 34-year-old Shane Battier, and Mario Chalmers. Two of those guys would retire a year later, one of them went on to become a career backup point guard, and the other could barely walk. Somehow LeBron overcame a double digit point deficit with those guys sharing the floor with him in crunch time during the highest leverage situation imaginable (and he made plenty of mistakes down the stretch, don't get me wrong).

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth regarding those previous finals, but I don't think it's pumping his tires to describe that as an all-time great performance. (It's worth mentioning, even as somebody who thinks D-Wade is the second best two guard of all-time, that he was never an ideal fit with LeBron). Ultimately, I'd rank LeBron's playoff moments something like this:

1. Games 5-7 against Golden State '16
2. 29 straight against Detroit '07
3. Games 6-7 against San Antonio '13
4. Game 6 in Boston '12
5. Game 7 in Boston '08
6. '09 conference finals vs. Orlando
7. '15 finals against Golden State

You could re-arrange the order some and I wouldn't argue, but to me #1 and #3 are the first mentioned on his tombstone. That - along with possibly this year - will be where the argument starts if he ever passes Jordan.

Didn't Lebron turn it over the two previous trips before Bosh and Allen saved his legacy?

 

[Rocktheworld]

The narrative wasn't "What's wrong with D-Wade", it was "The Heat are managing his minutes to save him for the playoffs". He also didn't "fade in the playoffs" given that the 46% he shot in the postseason that year is only 1 less than his 47% career mark, and the lower FTAs were due to generally having the ball in his hand less, as evidenced by the 5% drop in usage and 5 less FGA that season. He really only had a poor final 2 games against the Spurs, but both games were nearly 20-point blowouts anyways so can't really pin that solely on Wade.

I can't really take your talking about a specific portion of a game where the Heat had 2 of their big 3 resting on the bench against a Spurs team that basically played 7 guys in games 6-7 of the 13 finals, 2 of those were a 36 year old Duncan and a 35 year old Manu, 2 more being Gary Neal and Boris Diaw's fat tits. You also didn't mention Parker going 6-23 in game 6 or Parker & Danny Green combining for 4-24 in game 7. Stop selectively picking your anecdotal Lebron memories to build your case on, you sound so very much like Brian Windhorst when you do that.


Thing with listing Lebron's great achievements is that you can list nearly as many black marks that hurt his case:

1. Getting completely destroyed in the 07 finals even though the games themselves were much closer than anyone remembers

2. Giving up against the Celts in 2010

3. Relocating to build his original super team (I actually blame him more for going back to Cleveland when this super team started to age but this is still a point of contention for many people)

4. His complete meltdown in the 2011 finals

5. Leaving his partially aging super team to go back to Cleveland under the condition that they restack the deck in his favor

6. Being 3-4 in his 7 NBA finals series. Even forgiving the 07 finals he'd still be at .500, name me another top 3, 5, or 10 player (who didn't come from the Bill Russell era) with such a mediocre finals record.


Adding everything up, It's hard to make any serious argument for LeBron over MJ unless James leads his teams to another couple titles.

What would it take for LeBron to become the GOAT in your eyes? To what degree do team accomplishments vs individual basketball skills contribute to that determination?

What if he beats Golden State this and next year?

 

[JSM1970]

100% agree, that team was as pretty to watch as any team I can recall, including recent Dubs teams

Emergence of Kawhi, Manu/Parker playing at a high level, strong interior play from Duncan, Splitter, Diaw and great perimeter play from Mills,Green, Joseph, etc

The '14 Spurs were an all time great team. Don't think there is a better example of ball movement out there.

 

[Mr. French]

Dude is top 5 now, and i think there's a good chance he ends up #2 ... I could argue he is right now.

But to exceed Jordan's mark on the game, his 6-6-6 MVPs, etc., it's hard to imagine realistically Lebron could exceed him. Tough to beat 6-6-6. If he gets another 3-4, without losing? How realistic is that?

 

[bballgrda]

Talent wise they were not. That team winning the title was a combination of being the first successful team with that 3 & D ball movement style of play that the Warriors have gone on to master over the last 3 seasons. Their only core player that you could make a case for being in their prime was Parker. That team winning the title was really affirmation that Pops might he the best basketball coach ever.

Nobody is going to mention that Spurs team 20 years from now alongside the likes of Bird/Magic, MJ, (most likely) this current Warriors team, or even the Isiah Pistons teams or Shaq and Kobe.

That team had 4 HoF players all playing at a high level, the GOAT coach, and fantastic support players who knew and executed their role. They had better ball movement than the current Warriors team imo.

 

[NielsisGood]

What would it take for LeBron to become the GOAT in your eyes? To what degree do team accomplishments vs individual basketball skills contribute to that determination?

What if he beats Golden State this and next year?

Given how good the Warriors are LeBron would merit serious GOAT consideration if he were to beat them this and next year. He'd have beaten another historically great team 3 years in a row and would have been the alpha dog on 5 title teams.