NBA Post-Season Thread

[intlzncster]

Ok, with a week until the Finals start....how about listing our top 10 redrafting basketball history

1) 'Bron
2) MJ
3) Wilt
4) Magic
5) Shaq
6) Kareem
7) Larry Legend
8)Hakeem
9) Kobe
10) Duncan

Next 5 in no order: Big O, Moses, Mailman, Russell, Elgin

Potential to breakin still playing: KD, Steph, Kawhi

Would kill to be picking number 2 in that draft.

As an outlier, if we are talking about drafting from a young age on, Arvydas Sabonis would be in my Top 3. Combo of Shaq and Walton with 3pt shooting. He'd be challenging for best ever.

 

[MadDogRevival]

Really? With today's rules? MJ would've dominated. He put up those numbers in the most physical, exhausting, punishing NBA we've ever seen.

Maybe. But he was the savior of the NBA and my recollection, watching his whole career, was that got a very, very favorable whistle.
Also, his 3 point shooting wasn't great, so his ability to use today's rules wouldn't be as pronounced.
Of course, that's not fair, in a way, because the 3 point shot was not emphasized like it is now. If he grew up in the 2000s, he would likely have been a better 3 point shooter, so . . .

 

[MadDogRevival]

How many concussions have you had and what is the extent of your brain damage?

I was being serious.
I'm trying to understand your perspective. It would help me if I knew when you started watching BBall and how old you were.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Literally nobody forgets that MJ was losing to historically great Celts and Pistons teams early in his career and had some ridiculous scoring efforts trying to put the team on his back during those few years. Dude hung 63 points on 53% shooting against one of the greatest teams ever and you're trying to demean that.

LeBron was swept in the 07 NBA finals, and he orchestrated nearly every coaching change that has ever happened on his teams. Lebron also had Pat Riley when he was in Miami.

The 07 Team was him and a bunch of nobodies. Exactly how many games did Riley coach when Lebron was in Miami? I must have missed those games.

 

[NielsisGood]

The 07 Team was him and a bunch of nobodies. Exactly how many games did Riley coach when Lebron was in Miami? I must have missed those games.

Guy I responded to said LeBron has never been swept in the playoffs so I responded.

Riley was obviously heavily involved with how those Miami teams were coached and how they played. Spolestra was almost a proxy for Riley.

 

[champs99and04]

You're joking if you think I'm going to waste my time writing more paragraphs repeating the same information I put into my last post when you clearly don't want to listen to reason. Wade's numbers were about as good as you can reasonably expect on a per usage basis throughout that entire 4 year run, save for maybe the final 2 games in 2014, which again we both 20 point blowouts.


The bizarre masturbatory recanting of the Spurs teams those 2 years were a fun read though. The team had hardly any depth, 0 athleticism outside of Parker and Kawhi, and probably not even a single player who would have been considered among the top 15 in the league in either of those 2 years (certainly not top 10). They're not a historically great team just because you liked watching them play and are apparently infatuated with Danny Green.




Also just wanted to briefly respond to this. MJ was 21 and in his rookie season in that series vs the Bucks you referenced. MJ averaged 29-6-8 with 2.8 spg and 1 bpg while playing 43 mpg.

Also MJ against the Pistons:

1988: 1988 NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals - Chicago Bulls vs. Detroit Pistons | Basketball-Reference.com


1989: 1989 NBA Eastern Conference Finals - Chicago Bulls vs. Detroit Pistons | Basketball-Reference.com


1990: 1990 NBA Eastern Conference Finals - Chicago Bulls vs. Detroit Pistons | Basketball-Reference.com


Couple things about those series and those Pistons playoff runs. First is that even those Pistons teams that were some of the best and most physical defensive teams of all time couldn't really MJ. Second is that between the 89-90 Pistons title runs, MJ beat them in the playoffs 5 times, the Pistons lost 2 other games over both postseasons combined.


Sorry to spoil the cute little narrative you thought you had going there.

Unless I am thinking of a different Michael Jeffery Jordan he was born in February of 1963 and therefore 22 in the spring of 1985.

As for your other points, you're mostly putting words in my mouth. I never called the '13 or '14 Spurs a super team, but I also don't subscribe to your method of determining quality by counting the amount of sexy names on the roster (and I know that's over-simplifying your position, but still). I also never implied anything about Jordan's performances against Detroit other than that they were below his standards. My larger point was that the overall trajectories of their careers is a bit distorted because Jordan played three years in college to LeBron's zero.

One thing I will address is the idea that Tim Duncan wasn't a top 10 or even top 15 player in 2013 and 2014. He absolutely was and your downplaying of his impact while you puff up a back nine Wade is bizarre. Whatever infatuation I have with Danny Green is only because he shot out his ass in twelve finals games against Miami.

Incidentally, I also struggle to reconcile the prevailing belief that LeBron wouldn't have adapted to the more physical era as well as Jordan. Why would somebody bigger and stronger than Jordan not have thrived? If the logic is that Jordan's skills were his best attribute while LeBron's athleticism is his, then wouldn't an increase in contact amplify the advantages of being a freak of nature? I think one of the great untold stories of LeBron's career is what his post game could have become in a different era. The power post game cannot exist in today's NBA like it did when Shaq was at the height of his power and LeBron is one of the biggest victims of that.

 

[NielsisGood]

Unless I am thinking of a different Michael Jeffery Jordan he was born in February of 1963 and therefore 22 in the spring of 1985.

As for your other points, you're mostly putting words in my mouth. I never called the '13 or '14 Spurs a super team, but I also don't subscribe to your method of determining quality by counting the amount of sexy names on the roster (and I know that's over-simplifying your position, but still). I also never implied anything about Jordan's performances against Detroit other than that they were below his standards. My larger point was that the overall trajectories of their careers is a bit distorted because Jordan played three years in college to LeBron's zero.

One thing I will address is the idea that Tim Duncan wasn't a top 10 or even top 15 player in 2013 and 2014. He absolutely was and your downplaying of his impact while you puff up a back nine Wade is bizarre. Whatever infatuation I have with Danny Green is only because he shot out his ass in twelve finals games against Miami.

Incidentally, I also struggle to reconcile the prevailing belief that LeBron wouldn't have adapted to the more physical era as well as Jordan. Why would somebody bigger and stronger than Jordan not have thrived? If the logic is that Jordan's skills were his best attribute while LeBron's athleticism is his, then wouldn't an increase in contact amplify the advantages of being a freak of nature? I think one of the great untold stories of LeBron's career is what his post game could have become in a different era. The power post game cannot exist in today's NBA like it did when Shaq was at the height of his power and LeBron is one of the biggest victims of that.

MJ was 21 in that series, you are wrong: http://www.basketball-reference.com...rn-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-bucks.html

You've been one of the people trying to call that 2 year Spurs run an all time great team when they simply aren't.

Did you even click any of the links to those 3 playoff series? You have legitimately 0 argument to make that MJ played markedly below his standards.

Duncan was not a top 10-15 player at that time, but feel free to point out any relevant statistics that say otherwise: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_leaders.html

The difference between what I said about Wade and what you're saying about Duncan are that I'm actually providing stats to back my opinions up. You're just providing anecdotes.


Not sure why you're quoting me and including the bit about the eras MJ and LeBron played in. I haven't said a word about that.

 

[superjohn]

Unless I am thinking of a different Michael Jeffery Jordan he was born in February of 1963 and therefore 22 in the spring of 1985.

As for your other points, you're mostly putting words in my mouth. I never called the '13 or '14 Spurs a super team, but I also don't subscribe to your method of determining quality by counting the amount of sexy names on the roster (and I know that's over-simplifying your position, but still). I also never implied anything about Jordan's performances against Detroit other than that they were below his standards. My larger point was that the overall trajectories of their careers is a bit distorted because Jordan played three years in college to LeBron's zero.

One thing I will address is the idea that Tim Duncan wasn't a top 10 or even top 15 player in 2013 and 2014. He absolutely was and your downplaying of his impact while you puff up a back nine Wade is bizarre. Whatever infatuation I have with Danny Green is only because he shot out his ass in twelve finals games against Miami.

Incidentally, I also struggle to reconcile the prevailing belief that LeBron wouldn't have adapted to the more physical era as well as Jordan. Why would somebody bigger and stronger than Jordan not have thrived? If the logic is that Jordan's skills were his best attribute while LeBron's athleticism is his, then wouldn't an increase in contact amplify the advantages of being a freak of nature? I think one of the great untold stories of LeBron's career is what his post game could have become in a different era. The power post game cannot exist in today's NBA like it did when Shaq was at the height of his power and LeBron is one of the biggest victims of that.

If you think it was all about skills and athleticism with Jordan, you are getting it all wrong. Simply put Jordan is by far the greatest competitor I've ever seen. It's what made him punch teammates in the face and what made him great, he simply would not lose.

Lebron is amazing, he has all the size, speed, strength and skills in the world but I've never gotten that insane type of competetiveness from him. Jordan was maniacal in that regard.

 

[tzznandrew]

MJ was 21 in that series, you are wrong: http://www.basketball-reference.com...rn-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-bucks.html

He's not wrong here. Basketball-reference only puts one age of the player for the whole season stats. Jordan was born in February 1963. The series in question was in April 1985. Jordan was indeed 22 regardless of what basketball-reference says here.

LeBron was born in December of 1984. He debuted as a an 18 year old in October of 2003 and turned 19 in his rookie year, but basketball-reference only has him as 19.

 

[Scottzer]

Simply put, MJ had a hunger to win that hasn't been matched in the sport since. Maybe Russell should get credit in this regard, too, but he's way before my time. The only other athletes who have dominated in my lifetime to the extent that MJ did would be Gretzky, Tiger, Federer, Serena, Phelps, and Brady. To a large degree (team sport that isn't ridiculously dominated by one position) - WG is, in my mind, the fairest comparison. And, LJ just isn't quite there. He's damn good.

There was a hardness in the character of athletes (and the general population) that just isn't present in the newer generation (handful of exceptions). It felt like the chip on MJ's shoulder for having been cut from his HS team as a freshman just never went away. But, by the 1990s it seemed that a kid would transfer rather than face the competition.

 

[intlzncster]

There was a hardness in the character of athletes (and the general population) that just isn't present in the newer generation (handful of exceptions). It felt like the chip on MJ's shoulder for having been cut from his HS team as a freshman just never went away. But, by the 1990s it seemed that a kid would transfer rather than face the competition.

I've said it before in this thread, but the last hold out in that regard was Kobe. Just played with a nastiness you don't see much anymore.

 

[BUConn10]

Simply put, MJ had a hunger to win that hasn't been matched in the sport since. Maybe Russell should get credit in this regard, too, but he's way before my time. The only other athletes who have dominated in my lifetime to the extent that MJ did would be Gretzky, Tiger, Federer, Serena, Phelps, and Brady. To a large degree (team sport that isn't ridiculously dominated by one position) - WG is, in my mind, the fairest comparison. And, LJ just isn't quite there. He's damn good.

There was a hardness in the character of athletes (and the general population) that just isn't present in the newer generation (handful of exceptions). It felt like the chip on MJ's shoulder for having been cut from his HS team as a freshman just never went away. But, by the 1990s it seemed that a kid would transfer rather than face the competition.

This is the exact argument that makes me laugh at the old school heads who vowed half way into his career that Lebron won't come close to MJ.

The "toughness" measurement, Kobe fans used it liberally as well.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Ok, with a week until the Finals start....how about listing our top 10 redrafting basketball history

1) 'Bron
2) MJ
3) Wilt
4) Magic
5) Shaq
6) Kareem
7) Larry Legend
8)Hakeem
9) Kobe
10) Duncan

Next 5 in no order: Big O, Moses, Mailman, Russell, Elgin

Potential to breakin still playing: KD, Steph, Kawhi

Solid list. I would only disagree on one. I would replace him with Oscar or Dr. J.

Look at the career FG% on that list. One guy will stand out.

 

[the Q]

Literally nobody forgets that MJ was losing to historically great Celts and Pistons teams early in his career and had some ridiculous scoring efforts trying to put the team on his back during those few years. Dude hung 63 points on 53% shooting against one of the greatest teams ever and you're trying to demean that.

LeBron was swept in the 07 NBA finals, and he orchestrated nearly every coaching change that has ever happened on his teams. Lebron also had Pat Riley when he was in Miami.

The 07 Cavs were Lebron and an expansion team. And he dragged them to the finals.

 

[BUConn10]

The 07 Cavs were Lebron and an expansion team. And he dragged them to the finals.

One of his more underrated legacy feats.

That team would have won maybe 20 games without him.

The core of the recent NBA-Durant parity debate is that Durant, a top 3 player in the league, joined a team that without him went on to a 73-9 all-time record season, just to compete with the King. Meanwhile Lebron is leading a "superteam" that the year he won wouldn't have come close to 25 wins without him. It's a huge difference. Literally anywhere Lebron goes is a favorite to reach the finals.

 

[the Q]

One of his more underrated legacy feats.

That team would have won maybe 20 games without him.

The core of the recent NBA-Durant parity debate is that Durant, a top 3 player in the league, joined a team that without him went on to a 73-9 all-time record season, just to compete with the King. Meanwhile Lebron is leading a "superteam" that the year he won wouldn't have come close to 25 wins without him. It's a huge difference. Literally anywhere Lebron goes is a favorite to reach the finals.

I was just talking to my friend about this today.

If Kelly Olynyk doesn't cheap shot Love and rip his arm off.....the Cavs probably win in 2015 too.

The Dubs are ringless....does Durant even go there? How do we view the Warriors now? What is Steph's legeacy?

Moral of the story? Kelly Olynyk stopped Lebron when no one else could.

 

[JSM1970]

More about Kyrie getting hurt in game 1 of Finals and going down

Kyrie is the best pure offensive player in the NBA

Can't wait until Thurs, this should be fun

I was just talking to my friend about this today.

If Kelly Olynyk doesn't cheap shot Love and rip his arm off.....the Cavs probably win in 2015 too.

The Dubs are ringless....does Durant even go there? How do we view the Warriors now? What is Steph's legeacy?

Moral of the story? Kelly Olynyk stopped Lebron when no one else could.

 

[BUConn10]

I love the NBA.

 

[the Q]

More about Kyrie getting hurt in game 1 of Finals and going down

Kyrie is the best pure offensive player in the NBA

Can't wait until Thurs, this should be fun

So it's Iman Shumpert's fault.

 

[NielsisGood]

He's not wrong here. Basketball-reference only puts one age of the player for the whole season stats. Jordan was born in February 1963. The series in question was in April 1985. Jordan was indeed 22 regardless of what basketball-reference says here.

LeBron was born in December of 1984. He debuted as a an 18 year old in October of 2003 and turned 19 in his rookie year, but basketball-reference only has him as 19.

Idk man, I'm the one with a link to confirm.

The 07 Cavs were Lebron and an expansion team. And he dragged them to the finals.

The only team of any consequence he had to beat was a slightly past their prime Pistons squad that never had a superstar to begin with. Sure, LeBron turned the Cavs from a would be dumpster fire into a respectable team, but that's not really much different from what Russ Westbrook did this year.

 

[NielsisGood]

I was just talking to my friend about this today.

If Kelly Olynyk doesn't cheap shot Love and rip his arm off.....the Cavs probably win in 2015 too.

The Dubs are ringless....does Durant even go there? How do we view the Warriors now? What is Steph's legeacy?

Moral of the story? Kelly Olynyk stopped Lebron when no one else could.

Yeah there weren't a couple totally wonky things in last year's finals that helped the Cavs come back from 3-1. Holy hell the LeBron huffing is strong here.


I'm skeptical this finals series ends up being the epic matchup everyone is hoping for. Dubs win in anticlimatic fashion.

 

[the Q]

Yeah there weren't a couple totally wonky things in last year's finals that helped the Cavs come back from 3-1. Holy hell the LeBron huffing is strong here.


I'm skeptical this finals series ends up being the epic matchup everyone is hoping for. Dubs win in anticlimatic fashion.

No question.

Curry was clearly still hurt. Bogus got hurt and draymond continued his weird obsession with male genetalia.

But how much of that changes if the dubs lose to a Full strength cavs deal in 2015? The 2 injuries still likely happen. Does draymond's idk.

 

[gtcam]

Idk man, I'm the one with a link to confirm.



The only team of any consequence he had to beat was a slightly past their prime Pistons squad that never had a superstar to begin with. Sure, LeBron turned the Cavs from a would be dumpster fire into a respectable team, but that's not really much different from what Russ Westbrook did this year.

Right on point
Anybody who says James isn't great is crazy BUT it becomes much easier when you play on teams with 2 or 3 other AllStars
Regardless of what some "genius" terms as folks like me as "old school heads", this old schooler has seen more basketball and longer than some proclaimed lovers of the NBA have been alive
To each their own
LJ is great but so wasn't Bird, Magic, Dr J, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and a host of others but nobody won more than Bill Russell or had more impact than Wilt and Bill - nobody

 

[tzznandrew]

Idk man, I'm the one with a link to confirm.

I'm not debating the LeBron vs. MJ thing. In my ming it's MJ and LeBron has a lot of work to go to catch up.

But...I mean, why are you debating MJ's age in the Bucks series?

Michael Jordan was born on February 17, 1963.

His Bulls played the Bucks. April 19-April 26, 1985.

I don't need a link to know MJ's age in that series. It's math versus a very good website that only has one age listed per player per year when we all know that people are often more than one age during the season.

 

[BUConn10]

Yeah there weren't a couple totally wonky things in last year's finals that helped the Cavs come back from 3-1. Holy hell the LeBron huffing is strong here.


I'm skeptical this finals series ends up being the epic matchup everyone is hoping for. Dubs win in anticlimatic fashion.

The Lebron huffing is real here?

In your post you are actively going out of your way to ignore the very 2015 series you cited as being legendary. The cognitive dissonance is real.

 

[NielsisGood]

I'm not debating the LeBron vs. MJ thing. In my ming it's MJ and LeBron has a lot of work to go to catch up.

But...I mean, why are you debating MJ's age in the Bucks series?

Michael Jordan was born on February 17, 1963.

His Bulls played the Bucks. April 19-April 26, 1985.

I don't need a link to know MJ's age in that series. It's math versus a very good website that only has one age listed per player per year when we all know that people are often more than one age during the season.

BB Ref > You.


Just kidding. Not sure why you're stuck on the age factor. Glad you're not jumping on the LeBron as the absolute GOAT premature hype narrative.

 

[NielsisGood]

The Lebron huffing is real here?

In your post you are actively going out of your way to ignore the very 2015 series you cited as being legendary. The cognitive dissonance is real.

I haven't really said anything about the 2015 series. It's impossible to speculate what would have happened if Love and Kyrie didn't both get hurt. I felt like GSW would have won in 7 but who knows.

 

[NielsisGood]

No question.

Curry was clearly still hurt. Bogus got hurt and draymond continued his weird obsession with male genetalia.

But how much of that changes if the dubs lose to a Full strength cavs deal in 2015? The 2 injuries still likely happen. Does draymond's idk.

If GSW would have lost in 2015 they'd basically be the Peyton Manning or Arod (before they won) of the NBA. Phenomenal regular seasons and no titles.

 

[champs99and04]

MJ was 21 in that series, you are wrong: http://www.basketball-reference.com...rn-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-bucks.html

You've been one of the people trying to call that 2 year Spurs run an all time great team when they simply aren't.

Did you even click any of the links to those 3 playoff series? You have legitimately 0 argument to make that MJ played markedly below his standards.

Duncan was not a top 10-15 player at that time, but feel free to point out any relevant statistics that say otherwise: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_leaders.html

The difference between what I said about Wade and what you're saying about Duncan are that I'm actually providing stats to back my opinions up. You're just providing anecdotes.


Not sure why you're quoting me and including the bit about the eras MJ and LeBron played in. I haven't said a word about that.

Show me where I called that Spurs team an all-time great team? I said one of the best in recent memory, so while I get while you could have interpreted that as such, I did not intend to insinuate that they were the '96 Bulls.

I didn't click on your links because I already went back and looked at all the game logs before responding to your post. I'm not sure how you can say he did not play below his standards when he averaged 45 a game the series prior against Cleveland and then 27 a game in the Detroit series. Over the same amount of games he scored nearly 100 fewer points. In '89 he averaged 38 a game in the series against Cleveland and New York and then 30 against Detroit. Both times, his field goal percentage dropped, and in games four and five against Detroit - with his team nursing a 2-1 series lead - Michael hit a combined nine field goals. If that sounds familiar it's because it's basically the same thing that happened to LeBron against Boston in 2010 and he got killed for it.

None of those stats are likely to depict Duncan as a top 10 or 15 player for the reason that he played 30 minutes a game. In those 30 minutes, he averaged 18 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists, and 3 blocks per game while ranking in the top ten in defensive wins shares, defensive rating, and defensive box +/-. By the time the Spurs reached the finals those minutes restrictions were waived and the point became moot.

 

[champs99and04]

If you think it was all about skills and athleticism with Jordan, you are getting it all wrong. Simply put Jordan is by far the greatest competitor I've ever seen. It's what made him punch teammates in the face and what made him great, he simply would not lose.

Lebron is amazing, he has all the size, speed, strength and skills in the world but I've never gotten that insane type of competetiveness from him. Jordan was maniacal in that regard.

OK, but I think that competitiveness is reflected in his skill set and in his statistical output. There is certainly an intangible component to every great athlete that can be tricky to qualify, but to the extent that Jordan had it and LeBron might not is going to wash out in the numbers just as anything else - like talent or athleticism - would. Trust me I get what you're saying but we don't need to invent a separate category to reward Jordan for his competitiveness when we already have a stat for that called wins and losses. If in the grand scheme that's what makes Jordan better, fine, but I'm not sure how it is relevant to my point about how their games would translate to different eras.