NBA Finals Thread

[JSM1970]

I'm a C's fan, we have to wait out some of this from CLE, GSW

I just think KD is a joke and will never respect the dude no matter how good he is and how many rings he gets

He used to be a fan favorite, now he gets booed everywhere he plays, I wonder why?

If people are watching the NBA is happy and numbnuts like you are mad, which is like an added bonus.

 

[HuskyHawk]

One reason everyone else hates them is that they've had unbelievable injury luck that no other contender has had recently. The 2015 series might have looked different if Love and Irving were healthy. The Cavs are still waiting for a chance to play GS without Curry and Thompson playing.

People resent KD because he essentially conceded that because he couldn't beat em he better join em. He wasn't going to GS to challenge himself, but whatever.

Which is exactly what Lebron did when he joined the Heat. I don't get the hate. The league needs to find a way to make it harder for moves like that (or Lebron's) to happen.

 

[mauconnfan]

Which is exactly what Lebron did when he joined the Heat. I don't get the hate. The league needs to find a way to make it harder for moves like that (or Lebron's) to happen.

^BINGO^

 

[ivrytontusker]

Which is exactly what Lebron did when he joined the Heat. I don't get the hate. The league needs to find a way to make it harder for moves like that (or Lebron's) to happen.

The 2009-10 Heat did not win 73 games. The 2013-14 Cavs did not win 73 games. Lebron was not joining a championship team, as Durant was. He was trying to build one. Lebron's return to Cleveland was not motivated by ring chasing or money. There would have been better places to go, if he had been. He "promised" to bring a title to Cleveland, which is definitely part of the reason that he went back.

 

[awfuldan]

Can't believe anyone could equate Lebron's move with KD's. Completely different.

Game last night was at least entertaining front to back. Hoping the Cavs win the next one. Seems like they are starting to figure it out. Obviously, too little too late though. Gonna be interesting to see what happens in the offseason..

 

[mauconnfan]

The 2009-10 Heat did not win 73 games. The 2013-14 Cavs did not win 73 games. Lebron was not joining a championship team, as Durant was. He was trying to build one. Lebron's return to Cleveland was not motivated by ring chasing or money. There would have been better places to go, if he had been. He "promised" to bring a title to Cleveland, which is definitely part of the reason that he went back.

But why did he leave? Because he wasn't ready to build it there, his home town basically, with what they had.

I mean anyone trying to differentiate what KD did compared to what LeBron did is crazy, they both went somewhere to win. Not saying you shouldn't, if the NBA allows it then by all means have at it. No one did anything illegal so the hate on KD is beyond ridiculous. I mean besides Curry who do they have that's better than D Wade was in Miami - no one! And C Bosh is as good or better than most any of the support characters on GState they have. Everyone has an opinion, no one is right if you wish to argue. Ultimately they made a choice to go win and both will win.

 

[ivrytontusker]

But why did he leave? Because he wasn't ready to build it there, his home town basically, with what they had.

I mean anyone trying to differentiate what KD did compared to what LeBron did is crazy, they both went somewhere to win. Not saying you shouldn't, if the NBA allows it then by all means have at it. No one did anything illegal so the hate on KD is beyond ridiculous. I mean besides Curry who do they have that's better than D Wade was in Miami - no one! And C Bosh is as good or better than most any of the support characters on GState they have. Everyone has an opinion, no one is right if you wish to argue. Ultimately they made a choice to go win and both will win.

Nobody's saying KD did anything illegal. UNC didn't do anything illegal, either; that's not the point.

A 33 win team vs. a 73 win team? I think that's a pretty big difference. I don't hate KD, but I think it's pretty absurd to compare him to Lebron when Lebron has carried multiple teams to titles, while KD (because he was unable to do that) decided to go along for the ride.

 

[Deepster]

I went back two pages and didn't see anyone discuss this yet. What's up with Lebron standing 34 ft from the hoop watching Kyrie Irving take the shot after Durant's dagger 3? Who does that? Jordan? Bird? Kobe?

 

[Dogdeacon]

So, you're saying it was a mental lapse by LeBron which essentially cost the Cavs the game...

No, I think he was physically gassed and lined up where he did to prevent a drive to the hoop without necessarily considering the 3-point line. Now its possible the physical fatigue affected him mentally & he otherwise would have been a half-step out on the 3-pt line, but that's thin speculation on top of conjecture. Generally it was a small defensive error, mostly attributable to stuff happens and great offense beats good D, but its kind of a back-handed compliment to LeBron that I think fatigue played a factor in him instinctively thinking he had to be a bit closer to the paint to prevent a drive.

 

[superjohn]

I'm a C's fan, we have to wait out some of this from CLE, GSW

I just think KD is a joke and will never respect the dude no matter how good he is and how many rings he gets

He used to be a fan favorite, now he gets booed everywhere he plays, I wonder why?

You live in your own little fantasy world of hate. Durant doesn't get booed everywhere he goes and if Durant is a joke so is Garnett, Ray Allen, Lebron and others.

 

[superjohn]

But why did he leave? Because he wasn't ready to build it there, his home town basically, with what they had.

I mean anyone trying to differentiate what KD did compared to what LeBron did is crazy, they both went somewhere to win. Not saying you shouldn't, if the NBA allows it then by all means have at it. No one did anything illegal so the hate on KD is beyond ridiculous. I mean besides Curry who do they have that's better than D Wade was in Miami - no one! And C Bosh is as good or better than most any of the support characters on GState they have. Everyone has an opinion, no one is right if you wish to argue. Ultimately they made a choice to go win and both will win.

Lebron joined a top 5 player who already led his team to an NBA title and recruited the best power forward in the game to Miami to in their words win 5, 6, 7, 8 championships. In doing this he knew Cleveland would suck and would accumulate high draft picks. Once Lebron saw how good Kyrie was and saw that the team would have the space to bring in Love a 26 & 12 player he knew he had enough to win and could come home a savior.

I don't fault him for it, just like I don't fault the Celtics for joining up together to try and win championships.

 

[superjohn]

I went back two pages and didn't see anyone discuss this yet. What's up with Lebron standing 34 ft from the hoop watching Kyrie Irving take the shot after Durant's dagger 3? Who does that? Jordan? Bird? Kobe?

In his defense Kyrie is maybe the best iso player in the NBA but I agree the best player in the world needs the ball in his hands at the end and needs to get to the rack.

 

[Mr. French]

I went back two pages and didn't see anyone discuss this yet. What's up with Lebron standing 34 ft from the hoop watching Kyrie Irving take the shot after Durant's dagger 3? Who does that? Jordan? Bird? Kobe?

That's always my issue in the Jordan debate.

Lebron was tremendous. He always is. His numbers and talent are otherworldly. But not one great, namely the ones you mentioned, would have finished that game in the last 2-3 minutes like he just did.

If Irving had a layup, fine. He dribbled solo for 15 seconds then pulled up, while Lebron watched. The Cavs looked like they didn't know what to do in those situations.

 

[polycom]

No, I think he was physically gassed and lined up where he did to prevent a drive to the hoop without necessarily considering the 3-point line. Now its possible the physical fatigue affected him mentally & he otherwise would have been a half-step out on the 3-pt line, but that's thin speculation on top of conjecture. Generally it was a small defensive error, mostly attributable to stuff happens and great offense beats good D, but its kind of a back-handed compliment to LeBron that I think fatigue played a factor in him instinctively thinking he had to be a bit closer to the paint to prevent a drive.

That isn't how basketball works...NBA players read scouting reports Lebron knows KD traits to say that he was going to stop the ball 1 step behind the 3 point line doesn't exactly make sense. However, I get what you're saying.

 

[Dogdeacon]

That isn't how basketball works...NBA players read scouting reports Lebron knows KD traits to say that he was going to stop the ball 1 step behind the 3 point line doesn't exactly make sense. However, I get what you're saying.

I think we are close to agreeing, i.e. if LeBron had an earpiece in and as KD approached we told him that he's inside the 3pt arc he would have said/thought "Oh EXPLETIVE" and moved up that half step.

But generally in this instance and picking apart individual plays to determine legacies is nitpicking that's enabled by current video, hot take culture etc.. If he wasn't a winning player his teams wouldn't win and be in the finals so much.

 

[NielsisGood]

3 of the 4 GSW stars are elite 2 way players. Steph looks good in defensive analytics but I wouldnt argue he is an elite defensive player.

On the other hand, Kyrie and Love are objectively bad defensive players. The Cavs have had a historically good offense at times this year - this is not the side of the court where I believe they need to improve.

From watching the games themselves though Lebron the worst defensively amongst the Cavs stars last night. Kyrie actually did a really good job on Steph last night all things considered.

He was gassed, they are playing unsustainable pace too dependent on LeBron. He was missing layups he normally makes and the team is simply too dependent on LeBron at both ends.

Think you're over emphasizing LeBron here. Kyrie had been their shot taker most of the 2nd half, and LeBron was being kept away from Durant for most of the half (poor Richard Jefferson).

 

[NielsisGood]

You're confusing "I don't like him" with "he isn't likable."


Sure. That's what happens when you have to play pretty close to full-bore for 46 minutes. It's outrageous. The thought that he was out of gas!!


He logged 46 minutes of high intensity basketball. Athleticism wasn't the problem tonight. Every other Cav starter was -6 or worse tonight, in a 5 point loss. LeBron? He was +7 over 46 minutes. That stat is unreal. Irving played 44 minutes and was -9. Somebody sharper than me can figure out what that means in terms of the 2 minute difference and how bad Kyrie's squad without LBJ was in 2 minutes. He shot 4 of 9 from 3, and 11 of 19 from 2. He had 11 boards and 9 assists. And this, against a swarming, athletic, tall defense that was laser focused on him and that held the rest of the team to 39% shooting. And you think the problem was that he's lost some athleticism? I'm still waiting to find out how old you are. I'm completely serious about that.


1 extra stud player? LOL.
Agree on role players. Terrible tonight. TT had 3 boards and 0 points in 23 minutes tonight. Dreadful, but it really is more of a reflection of good GS is. Their 5th best defenders easily shut TT down completely.


The "actual" rules of the sport. Phew. Glad we're using the "actual" rules.

Oh man, no doubt the gun the 3 or crash the rim is the most efficient way to score. Did you think I didn't understand that? That maybe I thought the constant 3 point shooting by GS was not causally related to their success? Come on!
That's exactly the reason why GS is so good, why Curry and Thompson are regarded so highly (although both are tremendous shooters), and why I don't enjoy the NBA as much as I used to.
I love the concept that a longer shot should get you bonus value, because it spreads the floor out, speeds up the game, biases the game toward finesse players, and allows for larger leads to be overcome more easily. No doubt all true. I just think offering 50% more for what is now a shot that most shooters in the NBA can hit at 40% radically skews the shot selection in a less interesting way. When they implemented the rule, you didn't have a generation of kids bombing from 3 all day. Now you do. So change it. Back the line up (less preferred), or make it a 2.5 point line.

Sorry you spent so much time typing, but given that I've yet to see you have 1 quality take on anything NBA, I'm afraid I won't be taking the time to offer a point by point response.

 

[MadDogRevival]

Lebron was tremendous. He always is. His numbers and talent are otherworldly. But not one great, namely the ones you mentioned, would have finished that game in the last 2-3 minutes like he just did.

Not one great had to play balls to the wall for 44 minutes against the best team ever assembled prior to those last two minutes. Completely not fair to judge him on the last 2 minutes. If LBJ wasn't in the game, the Cavs would have been down by 30 with 2 minutes left.

Man, the hate on this guy is strong.

I suppose the main reason I now can't stand Kevin Durant (as a basketball player) is because he ruined what would have been an epic 3rd matchup. Without KD, we're probably looking at a 7 game series, and either Curry/Thompson's greatness or James' would have emerged and been part of the lore.

Now, instead, we have a boring series with a guy who couldn't get it done until he jointed the guys who kept beating him. He's pathetic.

He stole his false glory from those three guys, and made the thing a farce. People won't look back in 10 years and talk about how great Curry was. Nope. They'll be thinking, "yah, KD was sure huge in that series."

 

[MadDogRevival]

Sorry you spent so much time typing, but given that I've yet to see you have 1 quality take on anything NBA, I'm afraid I won't be taking the time to offer a point by point response.

Prom and graduation must have tuckered you out.
Any plans for a lemonade stand this summer??

 

[polycom]

I think we are close to agreeing, i.e. if LeBron had an earpiece in and as KD approached we told him that he's inside the 3pt arc he would have said/thought "Oh EXPLETIVE" and moved up that half step.

But generally in this instance and picking apart individual plays to determine legacies is nitpicking that's enabled by current video, hot take culture etc.. If he wasn't a winning player his teams wouldn't win and be in the finals so much.

Lol what? I've been arguing that Lebron is the GOAT. Lebron > Jordan. However, Lebron's defensive lapse isn't a little thing...I'm not using the play to determine his legacy.. but that play that play is key to why the Cavs lost as well as the turnaround jumper Lebron took.

 

[superjohn]

Not one great had to play balls to the wall for 44 minutes against the best team ever assembled prior to those last two minutes. Completely not fair to judge him on the last 2 minutes. If LBJ wasn't in the game, the Cavs would have been down by 30 with 2 minutes left.

Man, the hate on this guy is strong.

I suppose the main reason I now can't stand Kevin Durant (as a basketball player) is because he ruined what would have been an epic 3rd matchup. Without KD, we're probably looking at a 7 game series, and either Curry/Thompson's greatness or James' would have emerged and been part of the lore.

Now, instead, we have a boring series with a guy who couldn't get it done until he jointed the guys who kept beating him. He's pathetic.

He stole his false glory from those three guys, and made the thing a farce. People won't look back in 10 years and talk about how great Curry was. Nope. They'll be thinking, "yah, KD was sure huge in that series."

It's not fair to judge the best player in the world and what some would argue the best player ever on the final 2 minutes of a finals game?

 

[traitor71]

In his defense Kyrie is maybe the best iso player in the NBA but I agree the best player in the world needs the ball in his hands at the end and needs to get to the rack.

Irving took that ball and raced down court. He and his defender were down there by themselves for a second or two and I really thought he was going to attack the basket. He hesitated though and took that garbage shot. I can't totally kill Lebron for never getting the ball from a guy who didn't appear ready to give it up at all. All of the other possessions in the last few minutes are a different story though. Other than his final shot attempt of course, which was really good defense from Iguodala.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Which is exactly what Lebron did when he joined the Heat. I don't get the hate. The league needs to find a way to make it harder for moves like that (or Lebron's) to happen.

Oh, so LeBron was up 3-1 in the Conference Finals against a 73-win (Bosh-less) defending champion Heat team who already had 4 HOFers, then choked it away, then joined said team. Yup, exactly the same.

 

[mauconnfan]

Lebron joined a top 5 player who already led his team to an NBA title and recruited the best power forward in the game to Miami to in their words win 5, 6, 7, 8 championships. In doing this he knew Cleveland would suck and would accumulate high draft picks. Once Lebron saw how good Kyrie was and saw that the team would have the space to bring in Love a 26 & 12 player he knew he had enough to win and could come home a savior.

I don't fault him for it, just like I don't fault the Celtics for joining up together to try and win championships.

I don't fault either of them SJ, but both he and KD did make very similar moves to win in the locations they chose, that's all I'm saying. Heck I don't even care who wins what unless it's the C's. I'm just looking at the 2 guys both great players in their own right and they did what the NBA allowed. Can't fault them.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

Oh, so LeBron was up 3-1 in the Conference Finals against a 73-win (Bosh-less) defending champion Heat team, then choked it away, then joined said team. Yup, exactly the same.

There is no way for it to be "exactly the same" by your definition because the only way this is possible is if they left the same team in the same year and joined the same team (and were the same person which of course is impossible).

The general premise behind it is that they both left contending teams (OKC was much better/more of a contender than Lebron's cleveland) to join super teams. One was already formed and the other became one in the process of free agency which was contingent upon him even going there.

Only difference is that GS was much better than the Heat (although the team lbj joined wasnt the same as the year before so its an impossible comparison) and lebron didn't join the team that just beat him.

So Durant did a similar action except it was more extreme. Its a fair comparison even if its not "exactly the same" which would be impossible to do anyways.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Oh, so LeBron was up 3-1 in the Conference Finals against a 73-win (Bosh-less) defending champion Heat team who already had 4 HOFers, then choked it away, then joined said team. Yup, exactly the same.

Who cares about some 3-1 series? What difference does that make? Lebron and the Cavs repeatedly could not get through the Eastern conference, so when he became a free agent he left to join what was then then best team in the conference. Both Durant and Lebron took their prior team to one NBA Final Both of them also lost in the playoffs several times.

People are acting like Durant timed this. He left when he was able to leave. That's how contracts work. What happened the prior year is completely irrelevant. Both of them did exactly the same thing.

 

[mauconnfan]

Nobody's saying KD did anything illegal. UNC didn't do anything illegal, either; that's not the point.

A 33 win team vs. a 73 win team? I think that's a pretty big difference. I don't hate KD, but I think it's pretty absurd to compare him to Lebron when Lebron has carried multiple teams to titles, while KD (because he was unable to do that) decided to go along for the ride.

Would he have "carried" Miami to a title without other very good players? No so what's the difference. Why didn't he just stay in Cleveland then and never leave?

 

[HuskyHawk]

There is no way for it to be "exactly the same" by your definition because the only way this is possible is if they left the same team in the same year and joined the same team (and were the same person which of course is impossible).

The general premise behind it is that they both left contending teams (OKC was much better/more of a contender than Lebron's cleveland) to join super teams. One was already formed and the other became one in the process of free agency which was contingent upon him even going there.

Only difference is that GS was much better than the Heat (although the team lbj joined wasnt the same as the year before so its an impossible comparison) and lebron didn't join the team that just beat him.

So Durant did a similar action except it was more extreme. Its a fair comparison even if its not "exactly the same" which would be impossible to do anyways.

And one reason Lebron didn't leave to join the team that beat him the season before was because the Cavs lost to Boston, so didn't reach the conference finals.

 

[Rocktheworld]

There is no way for it to be "exactly the same" by your definition because the only way this is possible is if they left the same team in the same year and joined the same team (and were the same person which of course is impossible).

Nope, wouldn't require that. But even omitting that, "exactly" is an absolutely ridiculous word to use.

The general premise behind it is that they both left contending teams (OKC was much better/more of a contender than Lebron's cleveland) to join super teams.

Thanks for refuting your own point for me, in the same sentence you make it.

Only difference is that GS was much better than the Heat (although the team lbj joined wasnt the same as the year before so its an impossible comparison) and lebron didn't join the team that just beat him.

Well, as you said above, another massive difference was the teams each respective player left. KD had Russ, Adams, and Ibaka, a very very solid core, and had Billy Donovan coming in to coach. LeBron had...?

So Durant did a similar action except it was more extreme. Its a fair comparison even if its not "exactly the same" which would be impossible to do anyways.

I do not accept the idea that what they each did were qualitatively the same, just on different points along some spectrum. At best, the similarities are akin to murder vs manslaughter. Yeah, in both cases someone is dead and someone is responsible, but there are serious qualitative differences between the two charges

 

[Rocktheworld]

Who cares about some 3-1 series?

People who care about context; which, evidently, you don't. Which means that this conversation is officially pointless.

Have a good one