NBA Finals Thread | Page 13 | The Boneyard

NBA Finals Thread

Nope, wouldn't require that. But even omitting that, "exactly" is an absolutely ridiculous word to use.


Thanks for refuting your own point for me, in the same sentence you make it.

Well, as you said above, another massive difference was the teams each respective player left. KD had Russ, Adams, and Ibaka, a very very solid core, and had Billy Donovan coming in to coach. LeBron had...?


I do not accept the idea that what they each did were qualitatively the same, just on different points along some spectrum. At best, the similarities are akin to murder vs manslaughter. Yeah, in both cases someone is dead and someone is responsible, but there are serious qualitative differences between the two charges

you used the word exactly. maybe you were responding to a poster who said it first?

I didn't refute my point at all. They were both contending teams. fact. OKC was better. fact. I said KD did generally the same thing but more extreme. this isn't refuting anything.

The situations were different (i never said otherwise) but the end result is the same. they both left their former teams to join super teams. not sure why that is so hard to grasp to you. Lebron himself predicted not 4, not 5, not 6. surely you don't forget that. He saw his new team as an unbeatable dynasty, similarly to how I'm sure KD saw GSW with him.

Lebrons team lost in the first year though (and he was awful). KD not so much. just another minor difference.
 
People who care about context; which, evidently, you don't. Which means that this conversation is officially pointless.

Have a good one

That context is entirely arbitrary. Boston recruited Lebron that offseason, and that's who he lost to. He only went to Miami because they also convinced Bosh to come. His team had finished with the best record several years, and yet he never won a title and only got the finals once. He wanted to win and that drove his decision. Durant wanted to win and that drove his decision. If OKC loses to San Antonio not GS, Durant still goes to GS.
 
The 2009-10 Heat did not win 73 games. The 2013-14 Cavs did not win 73 games. Lebron was not joining a championship team, as Durant was. He was trying to build one. Lebron's return to Cleveland was not motivated by ring chasing or money. There would have been better places to go, if he had been. He "promised" to bring a title to Cleveland, which is definitely part of the reason that he went back.

Cavs traded a #1 pick and a guy they had taken #1 the year before for a then-all star player. How is trading young/future assets for a ready made player not ring chasing? Why did the Heat big 3 have their "We're not gonna win 3 titles, not 4, not 5, etc" moment if the expectation was anything other than being a perennial title favorite?
 
Would he have "carried" Miami to a title without other very good players? No so what's the difference. Why didn't he just stay in Cleveland then and never leave?

Cavs traded a #1 pick and a guy they had taken #1 the year before for a then-all star player. How is trading young/future assets for a ready made player not ring chasing? Why did the Heat big 3 have their "We're not gonna win 3 titles, not 4, not 5, etc" moment if the expectation was anything other than being a perennial title favorite?

Lebron didn't join a team that had just won 73 games and was a title winner without him, that's the difference. No Lebron and the Heat (or Cavs) aren't near the Finals. No Durant and the Warriors are still favored to win the title.
 
Lebron didn't join a team that had just won 73 games and was a title winner without him, that's the difference. No Lebron and the Heat (or Cavs) aren't near the Finals. No Durant and the Warriors are still favored to win the title.

But both are still cases of a guy leaving a for a better situation. Both left teams that they had trouble making the finals with went to situations that made them title favorites. It doesn't matter how good the teams were before they got there.
 
.-.
I'm a Durant fan and an even bigger Warriors fan, but if you can't see how his decision to sign with Golden State differs from LeBron's and you can't see why people are upset by it, then you just aren't even willing to engage in any sort of objective conversation. I've liked most of your takes ITT @superjohn but comparing it to the Celtics is completely laughable.

Moreover, there is room between "this is the most spineless thing I've ever seen and it has ruined the sport" and "if you don't like watching the Warriors play you're not a basketball fan."

I get that dominance and competitiveness have to be mutually exclusive. You can't have one without the other. Myself, I've enjoyed it, at least through one year. I think it's cool to watch the greatest basketball team of my lifetime methodically eviscerate their opponent every night, and if Golden State wins by 40 tonight there will be nobody happier than me.

But right now it's a novelty. Next year, it might not be, and if the optics of the current league are bad, it's because the Warriors make the other teams and games and series' not matter. I can't remember that ever being the case for as long as I've watched, maybe in the early 2000's when the Shaq/Kobe Lakers were doing their thing (and even then, it was really only '01 that they cruised through unblemished). There is a lack of suspense that is decidedly bad for the sport.
 
Lol what? I've been arguing that Lebron is the GOAT. Lebron > Jordan. However, Lebron's defensive lapse isn't a little thing...I'm not using the play to determine his legacy.. but that play that play is key to why the Cavs lost as well as the turnaround jumper Lebron took.
I disagree, the -10 or -12 when LeBron sat down is a huge stat to think about when fully processing the post-game analysis. Yes the game was on the line in those final few plays, but LeBron made the great play and pass to Korver that could have won the game (5pt lead pre-Durant 3) and likewise a few plays earlier LeBron got 2 straight offensive rebounds, JR Smith missed a 3 and then LeBron found Love underneath & had either converted, the lead would have been insurmountable (8 or 9, instead Curry makes a layup to cut it to 4). Ultimately its a team sport and Irving's shot to win the finals last year rises all boats (LeBron's), but his teammates misses Wednesday night don't diminish LeBron's greatness. The final plays are result of both the misses and fact that the team couldn't survive him sitting down for even 2 minutes. The fact that the Cavs with LeBron on the floor outscored the juggernaut Warriors team is quite remarkable - if Cavs had a better strategy in this series LeBron's (and Kyrie's one on one brilliance) individual greatness might have trumped the Warrior's team greatness.
I'm predicting Cavaliers 95, Warriors 92 tonight.
 
But both are still cases of a guy leaving a for a better situation. Both left teams that they had trouble making the finals with went to situations that made them title favorites. It doesn't matter how good the teams were before they got there.
Doesn't shock me that someone who comes up with "NielsisGood" (and I can't not read that in my head with a doofey voice) as a handle repeatedly fails to generate a half-decent argument.
 
I forgot who had said it yesterday, but obviously the exact situations between the 2 aren't 100% the same. The overarching reasons for LeBron and Durant's team changes have been the same. It mostly just seems like a needless waste of mental energy to hate Durant 10% more because he went to a team that was already established as opposed to LeBron orchestrating moves to end up with 2 other top all-star players supporting him on his teams. Pretty much everyone hated LeBron when he first went to Miami and a lot of people have softened on that stance since. I imagine things will play out similarly for Durant, because the end result ends up being the same whether you build a super team via free agency & trades, or join one that's already been established.
 
Doesn't shock me that someone who comes up with "NielsisGood" (and I can't not read that in my head with a doofey voice) as a handle repeatedly fails to generate a half-decent argument.

It does shock me that someone who comes up with something as unoriginal and uninspiring as "Rocktheworld" would seriously try to infer anything from anyone else's username.
 
Doesn't shock me that someone who comes up with "NielsisGood" (and I can't not read that in my head with a doofey voice) as a handle repeatedly fails to generate a half-decent argument.

The point though is it's an "argument." What makes anyone right here more than Neils? There's a reason no one agrees here, it's up for debate and it won't have a definitive winner as everyone is right and wrong. So no need to hammer each other on handles, geez.
 
.-.
The overarching reasons for LeBron and Durant's team changes have been the same. It mostly just seems like a needless waste of mental energy to hate Durant 10% more because he went to a team that was already established as opposed to LeBron orchestrating moves to end up with 2 other top all-star players supporting him on his teams.
Durant/Curry/Klay vs. LeBron/Wade/Bosh is probably advantage Miami, historically speaking, if we're being honest.

Draymond, and the bench, is what tilts that scale to the Warriors. But the peak Heat teams of 2011-2013 would give this team a run for its money, though I still think the Warriors would win.
 
It does shock me that someone who comes up with something as unoriginal and uninspiring as "Rocktheworld" would seriously try to infer anything from anyone else's username.
001.jpg
 
I'm a Durant fan and an even bigger Warriors fan, but if you can't see how his decision to sign with Golden State differs from LeBron's and you can't see why people are upset by it, then you just aren't even willing to engage in any sort of objective conversation. I've liked most of your takes ITT @superjohn but comparing it to the Celtics is completely laughable.

Moreover, there is room between "this is the most spineless thing I've ever seen and it has ruined the sport" and "if you don't like watching the Warriors play you're not a basketball fan."

I get that dominance and competitiveness have to be mutually exclusive. You can't have one without the other. Myself, I've enjoyed it, at least through one year. I think it's cool to watch the greatest basketball team of my lifetime methodically eviscerate their opponent every night, and if Golden State wins by 40 tonight there will be nobody happier than me.

But right now it's a novelty. Next year, it might not be, and if the optics of the current league are bad, it's because the Warriors make the other teams and games and series' not matter. I can't remember that ever being the case for as long as I've watched, maybe in the early 2000's when the Shaq/Kobe Lakers were doing their thing (and even then, it was really only '01 that they cruised through unblemished). There is a lack of suspense that is decidedly bad for the sport.

All true.

But, and this isn't definite but should provide many a sense of calm: The NBA has always been about a miniscule number of franchises dominating for a few years at a time, then being overtaken.

It's human nature's recency bias, but I remember thinking and/or knowing that no one was beating X team. That was usually true,for a year, two, three ... Eventually something overtakes them. It never lasts as long as it seems or is as bad as it seems.

I knew Jordan wasn't losing those titles, though I watched still to see if they would. The early 2000s Lakers appeared unstoppable. If you recall, they won 3 straight, Kobe was going INTO his prime, and they added Malone, Payton, etc.

The 2010-era Lakers had a 2-peat, 3 straight appearances, then ADDED 2 hall of famers (or at the time, HOFers). They fell apart.

I'm with you about all said about KD. I don't hate him, I just wish he wouldn't have gone there. But they ain't winning 6 titles in 7 years or something. It just wont happen.
 
Durant/Curry/Klay vs. LeBron/Wade/Bosh is probably advantage Miami, historically speaking, if we're being honest.

Draymond, and the bench, is what tilts that scale to the Warriors. But the peak Heat teams of 2011-2013 would give this team a run for its money, though I still think the Warriors would win.
Interesting discussion on this on the Lowe post yesterday. They (Zach Lowe, Howard Beck) brought up the point that in the modern era it started with the Celtics, mostly Danny Ainge creating the super-team via the Ray Allen trade that facilitated Garnett ok-ing a move he'd previously refused and creating a super team obstacle that thwarted LeBron. LeBron trumped that move on his own as a player - pretty impressive and admirable if you view it from afar. Its like an employee led buyout.

And somehow when its a GM or owner or the weird rules of NBA salary structures creating teams we don't fault the players (even though for the Celtics example Garnett's signoff was truly key) when in reality we should be rooting for the athletes as much as the uniforms and certainly moreso than owners.
For me there's just too much jealousy behind the schadenfreude. I think Niels nailed it though and saying we should hate Durant 10% more b/c the team he went to was better highlights the absurdity of the viewpoint. I want Chris Paul to go to the Spurs or for Melo & some others to join Clippers to create other super-teams. KLove for PGeorge probably won't happen (why would Pacers do it) but it would get the finals teams a lot closer. Or I'm 100% ok with LeBron moving to LA in 18-19 and creating a banana boat super team with CP3, Melo & Wade IF its the Clippers b/c I hate the Laker uni ;)
 
All true.

But, and this isn't definite but should provide many a sense of calm: The NBA has always been about a miniscule number of franchises dominating for a few years at a time, then being overtaken.

It's human nature's recency bias, but I remember thinking and/or knowing that no one was beating X team. That was usually true,for a year, two, three ... Eventually something overtakes them. It never lasts as long as it seems or is as bad as it seems.

I knew Jordan wasn't losing those titles, though I watched still to see if they would. The early 2000s Lakers appeared unstoppable. If you recall, they won 3 straight, Kobe was going INTO his prime, and they added Malone, Payton, etc.

The 2010-era Lakers had a 2-peat, 3 straight appearances, then ADDED 2 hall of famers (or at the time, HOFers). They fell apart.

I'm with you about all said about KD. I don't hate him, I just wish he wouldn't have gone there. But they ain't winning 6 titles in 7 years or something. It just wont happen.

No doubt your historical perspective is accurate, which I think in a way proves everybody right. Theoretically, in 2017, the league should be better than it was one, two, three decades ago, no? The ratings would prove me wrong, but I don't clamor for Jordan's Bulls the way some do. I think the influx of international stars circa '03/'04 elevated the sport to heights it had never seen, even if it would take a little while for it to be reflected in the quality of the product.

For those equating what we're seeing currently to LeBron joining the Heat, though, I would vehemently disagree. Just look at the landscape of the league in 2011 - the period where I believe it peaked as a union between the old guard and the new wave of talent - when people first began to question the competitive balance. These were your second round match-ups:

Grizzlies-Thunder - Memphis, just having shocked the top seeded Spurs, took Oklahoma City seven. Game four - with the Thunder trailing the series 2-1 - went 3 overtimes.

Celtics-Heat - Separated by only two games during the regular season, this one ends in five but was much closer and more dramatic than that would indicate. Game four went to overtime and the Heat came back in the fourth quarter to win game five with LeBron going on an epic 11-0 run and then kneeling to the floor in emotion at the buzzer. Akin here to Jordan finally beating the Pistons.

Hawks-Bulls - Fairly forgettable series, over in six. This was the Hawks team with Jeff Teague, Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford, Horford, and Josh Smith.

Lakers-Mavs - Two time defending champs going against a Dallas team that was presumed to be soft based on reputation. Ends in a sweep with Dallas storming back to win game one and then barely surviving game three.

Next round you get Thunder-Mavs and Bulls-Heat. Both ended in five but featured more than enough drama. The Mavs overcame a 15 point deficit in the final 15 minutes of game four to swing the series from 2-2- to 3-1 and then made another fourth quarter comeback in game five. Game four of Heat-Bulls went to overtime and game five ended with Chicago blowing an eight point lead in the final three minutes.

Everybody remembers Heat-Mavs. You had your epic game two comeback, games three and four being decided by one possession, and then Dallas pulling away late in games five and six.

I won't bother calculating the point differentials, but I imagine there's a demonstrable difference there in the general competitiveness of games. You had a ton of up-and-coming stars like Westbrook, Durant, Harden, Marc Gasol, Conley, and Rondo merged with the old guard like Garnett, Pierce, Allen, Kobe, Gasol, Dirk, Kidd, Odom, etc. It felt conceivable that five or six of them could win the championship, and no matter how the match-ups worked out, the finals would be loaded with stars and compelling story lines.

So I don't necessarily agree - not that you said this - that the NBA has never had parity because it has. It had parity last year when there were at least four teams (Cleveland, Golden State, San Antonio, and Oklahoma City) capable of winning a championship and it had drama when ever series from the second round on had the potential to flip the trajectory of the league. I think it's a cop out - both on the part of fans and the commissioner - to settle for good when there are enough great players in the world for it to be great. The NBA should be seizing this opportunity in an era where baseball has lost its appeal and the downfall of football looms.
 
.-.
That is a Geriatric Super team

They wouldn't get past the West semis

In a few years teams like the Nuggets, Pelicans, Portland, Lakers (signing PG), T Wolves and Suns will be very tough outs not to mention Spurs, Rockets, GSW

And expect Cuban to get the Mavs relevant again

If I was Indy I might do a Love for PG deal knowing PG is gone after next season and at least you get a piece back

They should try and do something now to get the Lakers #2 and a few pieces like Russell or Randle


Or I'm 100% ok with LeBron moving to LA in 18-19 and creating a banana boat super team with CP3, Melo & Wade IF its the Clippers b/c I hate the Laker uni ;)
 
It is bad for the NBA

KD is a total joke. He gets booed in every arena except Oracle.

He'll get his ring, which everyone will put a mental asterisk on

Have you watched this guy play?? He's absolutely beasting. Imo he's been better than LBJ if you look at the entire series. Although, yes, a good portion of that is that he has better teammates and less on his plate.
 
Interesting discussion on this on the Lowe post yesterday. They (Zach Lowe, Howard Beck) brought up the point that in the modern era it started with the Celtics, mostly Danny Ainge creating the super-team via the Ray Allen trade that facilitated Garnett ok-ing a move he'd previously refused and creating a super team obstacle that thwarted LeBron. LeBron trumped that move on his own as a player - pretty impressive and admirable if you view it from afar. Its like an employee led buyout.

And somehow when its a GM or owner or the weird rules of NBA salary structures creating teams we don't fault the players (even though for the Celtics example Garnett's signoff was truly key) when in reality we should be rooting for the athletes as much as the uniforms and certainly moreso than owners.
For me there's just too much jealousy behind the schadenfreude. I think Niels nailed it though and saying we should hate Durant 10% more b/c the team he went to was better highlights the absurdity of the viewpoint. I want Chris Paul to go to the Spurs or for Melo & some others to join Clippers to create other super-teams. KLove for PGeorge probably won't happen (why would Pacers do it) but it would get the finals teams a lot closer. Or I'm 100% ok with LeBron moving to LA in 18-19 and creating a banana boat super team with CP3, Melo & Wade IF its the Clippers b/c I hate the Laker uni ;)

Ya, I do not want Bron going to the Lakers. If they take Ball #2, we'd never, ever, ever hear the end of Lavar Ball claiming his son revitalized the Lakers. No thanks.

That and they are the closest to catching Boston for overall most glorious franchise.
 
Well that's a helluva first quarter for the Cavs. And with only seven points from Lebron. Wow.
 
Have you watched this guy play?? He's absolutely beasting. Imo he's been better than LBJ if you look at the entire series. Although, yes, a good portion of that is that he has better teammates and less on his plate.

It may be bad for the NBA but the rest of his argument is false. KD does not get booed at every NBA arena. Not even close. The outrage towards Lebron was not even comparable, and people are already over that. And half of the stars coming off the books in the next few years will be doing the exact same thing.
 
.-.
I hate the NBA... does either team even have a center?
 
Lebron should be used as a center he is getting to the rim at will and is getting open 3's for JR and Korver.
 
.-.

Forum statistics

Threads
168,263
Messages
4,560,478
Members
10,452
Latest member
WashingtonH


Top Bottom