NBA Finals Thread

[Walker11]

Is it though?

Because if you look at the roster, Cleveland minus Lebron still has more talent than pretty much every team in the east.

They beat the celts in the conference finals. Kyrie is better than anyone on the celtics. And Kevin love without Lebron is not the same player as love with Lebron. You could argue he is also better than anyone on the celtics. And definitely sincere IT got hurt.

Last I checked that's 2 guys from team USA when the cs have none.

I conceded that it's arguable and never said they would definitely win it without Lebron. But to call it insanity is a huge stretch. Especially when you offer zero reasoning as to why.

I don't think Love or Kyrie are the type of players to elevate their teammates. They weren't in the past, at least. Empty stats on bad teams. We have seen how Kyrie and Love play together without Lebron and it hasn't been good. Obviously, they wouldn't be 4-19 bad without Lebron but I think they would be a low seeded playoff team. A lot would depend on coaching. Ty Lue is no Brad Stevens. I think your idea is ridiculous but all I have is my opinion and we will likely never know how that team would do.

 

[EBonz30]

Not like it matters, they screw up everything but probably Dennis Smith.

Yes, Dennis Smith Jr. or Malik Monk I will be happy.

 

[superjohn]

After GS rolls to another title next year I am willing to bet the banana boat crew will have more people pulling for them than against them. They would all be in the twilight of their respective career. I don't think it would be LeBrons best move if all he cares about is winning. He should go to SAS... lol

Maybe. I find the Warriors hate a little confusing. There is more hate now because of Durant's move but there was plenty of hate last year. They were pretty much an entirely homgrown team made up of amazing draft picks. Curry and Thompson both went too late and Draymond was a second round draft pick. With Durant they still have the 14 highest payroll in the league. A lot of people just tend to hate greatness I guess.

 

[ivrytontusker]

Maybe. I find the Warriors hate a little confusing. There is more hate now because of Durant's move but there was plenty of hate last year. They were pretty much an entirely homgrown team made up of amazing draft picks. Curry and Thompson both went too late and Draymond was a second round draft pick. With Durant they still have the 14 highest payroll in the league. A lot of people just tend to hate greatness I guess.

One reason everyone else hates them is that they've had unbelievable injury luck that no other contender has had recently. The 2015 series might have looked different if Love and Irving were healthy. The Cavs are still waiting for a chance to play GS without Curry and Thompson playing.

People resent KD because he essentially conceded that because he couldn't beat em he better join em. He wasn't going to GS to challenge himself, but whatever.

 

[champs99and04]

These guys are all fine role players. You are getting greedy.

They're fine in comparison to the standards of the league. In these games they look out of place. I'd say the same for Jefferson, Korver, McGee, Clark, etc. If we're gonna have two or three super teams then I'd rather they not be diluted by guys that can't keep up. Give me the Livingston's and Iguodla's every day and leave J.R. Smith to those Bucks-Hawks first round series' where he belongs. That probably doesn't sound intelligent but I don't think I'm wrong, ha.

 

[champs99and04]

One reason everyone else hates them is that they've had unbelievable injury luck that no other contender has had recently. The 2015 series might have looked different if Love and Irving were healthy. The Cavs are still waiting for a chance to play GS without Curry and Thompson playing.

People resent KD because he essentially conceded that because he couldn't beat em he better join em. He wasn't going to GS to challenge himself, but whatever.

I don't think their injury luck has anything to do with it. I think a lot of the hate stems from old school guys who hate the growing emphasis on the three point line. Guys like Barkley, Pippen, and T-Mac just to name a few are bothered by the idea of somebody like Steph dominating the sport.

Can't say I blame them for feeling that way, but for some reason I just love this team. If Duke was doing it I guarantee I'd be the first to rip them.

 

[MadDogRevival]

I don't think their injury luck has anything to do with it. I think a lot of the hate stems from old school guys who hate the growing emphasis on the three point line.

The "growing" emphasis? It's not just a growing emphasis. It's the only emphasis. The NBA game IS a 3 point shooting game. Period. The rest is mostly irrelevant.

I think the style of basketball absolutely sucks. Yeah, at 48 I guess I'm "old school."

Today's game is bomb away or crash and draw the foul. I find it terribly boring, and I think it makes guys who don't have a complete skill set look a lot better than they are.

Yeah, nobody wants to go back to a ponderous game with dumping the ball into the big guy for the back in, clumsy half hook.

But I think that rewarding 50% more for a shot that's now pretty easy for guys coming up is boring. Maybe it's great for today's ADD generation. Nothing like being about to come back from 15 down in 3 minutes by chucking up 3s constantly and maybe getting hot.

GS and the Cavs shot 33 and 44 three point attempts. The Cavs shot just about 1/2 of their shots from behind the arc.

To me, that sucks, and I guess I'll find another way to spend my entertainment money, after I'm done shooing these damn kids off my lawn. LOL.

 

[NielsisGood]

Both Lebron and KD are taken for granted by far too many people.

HUH? LeBron is the most well covered and talked about athlete of all time and people were just calling him the GOAT last week. LeBron isn't really that likeable of a person but nobody denies his or Durant's talent.


This thread has gone completely off the rails at this point. So many dumb comments the last couple pages.

Did someone say hot takes? Is Lebron still considered "elite"? Does Lebron have the "clutch gene"?? Has KD passed Jordan as a player???

LeBron had an objectively horrible last couple minutes of that game.

Along that note, what has been most striking to me in this series is how much more impactful Durant has been defensively than LeBron. It's difficult to surmise how much of that can be attributed to Golden State's spacing limiting what LeBron can do as a help defender and how much of it is Durant simply being able to do things athletically that LeBron can't at this point.

Hey remember when I said LeBron has noticeably declined athletically?

I bet the Cavs come out flat and get smoked in the next game. If that is the case, I am extremely curious about what is going to happen to the Cavs. Lebron knows his window is closing and knows that this roster makeup can't compete with the Warriors, which is all that matters to him. Kyrie is not a good fit with him offensively and Love is not a good fit against the Warriors. I think this team will be very, very different next season, and Lebron may decide to get together with the banana boat crew sooner than expected. As the coach, GM, and free agent himself, he has a lot of decisions to make up.

Again, what? How could you have watched game 3 and come to the conclusion that Lebron and Kyrie don't work together offensively?

Anyways the problem here isn't Kyrie, or even Love. It's that GSW has 1 extra stud player, the Cavs role players being completely useless in this series, and the fact that Durant is playing at a level on par (and arguably better) than Lebron.

The "growing" emphasis? It's not just a growing emphasis. It's the only emphasis. The NBA game IS a 3 point shooting game. Period. The rest is mostly irrelevant.

I think the style of basketball absolutely sucks. Yeah, at 48 I guess I'm "old school."

Today's game is bomb away or crash and draw the foul. I find it terribly boring, and I think it makes guys who don't have a complete skill set look a lot better than they are.

Yeah, nobody wants to go back to a ponderous game with dumping the ball into the big guy for the back in, clumsy half hook.

But I think that rewarding 50% more for a shot that's now pretty easy for guys coming up is boring. Maybe it's great for today's ADD generation. Nothing like being about to come back from 15 down in 3 minutes by chucking up 3s constantly and maybe getting hot.

GS and the Cavs shot 33 and 44 three point attempts. The Cavs shot just about 1/2 of their shots from behind the arc.

To me, that sucks, and I guess I'll find another way to spend my entertainment money, after I'm done shooing these damn kids off my lawn. LOL.

The way the game is played now has been analytically proven to be the most efficient offense based on the actual rules of the sport.

 

[Huskyforlife]

People who say Kevin Durant ruined the NBA must not be watching for entertainment. The warriors are the most fun team to watch that I've ever seen, they're entertaining.

 

[MadDogRevival]

LeBron isn't really that likeable of a person . . .

You're confusing "I don't like him" with "he isn't likable."

LeBron had an objectively horrible last couple minutes of that game.

Sure. That's what happens when you have to play pretty close to full-bore for 46 minutes. It's outrageous. The thought that he was out of gas!!

Hey remember when I said LeBron has noticeably declined athletically?

He logged 46 minutes of high intensity basketball. Athleticism wasn't the problem tonight. Every other Cav starter was -6 or worse tonight, in a 5 point loss. LeBron? He was +7 over 46 minutes. That stat is unreal. Irving played 44 minutes and was -9. Somebody sharper than me can figure out what that means in terms of the 2 minute difference and how bad Kyrie's squad without LBJ was in 2 minutes. He shot 4 of 9 from 3, and 11 of 19 from 2. He had 11 boards and 9 assists. And this, against a swarming, athletic, tall defense that was laser focused on him and that held the rest of the team to 39% shooting. And you think the problem was that he's lost some athleticism? I'm still waiting to find out how old you are. I'm completely serious about that.

It's that GSW has 1 extra stud player, the Cavs role players being completely useless in this series, and the fact that Durant is playing at a level on par (and arguably better) than Lebron.

1 extra stud player? LOL.
Agree on role players. Terrible tonight. TT had 3 boards and 0 points in 23 minutes tonight. Dreadful, but it really is more of a reflection of good GS is. Their 5th best defenders easily shut TT down completely.

The way the game is played now has been analytically proven to be the most efficient offense based on the actual rules of the sport.

The "actual" rules of the sport. Phew. Glad we're using the "actual" rules.

Oh man, no doubt the gun the 3 or crash the rim is the most efficient way to score. Did you think I didn't understand that? That maybe I thought the constant 3 point shooting by GS was not causally related to their success? Come on!
That's exactly the reason why GS is so good, why Curry and Thompson are regarded so highly (although both are tremendous shooters), and why I don't enjoy the NBA as much as I used to.
I love the concept that a longer shot should get you bonus value, because it spreads the floor out, speeds up the game, biases the game toward finesse players, and allows for larger leads to be overcome more easily. No doubt all true. I just think offering 50% more for what is now a shot that most shooters in the NBA can hit at 40% radically skews the shot selection in a less interesting way. When they implemented the rule, you didn't have a generation of kids bombing from 3 all day. Now you do. So change it. Back the line up (less preferred), or make it a 2.5 point line.

 

[djct1999]

Durant decision created the worst NBA season of all time and now the worst playoffs of all time, ouch, yes you got a chip, but it's unwatchable and just silly.

Hopefully you go somewhere else next year otherwise the NBA is doomed for the next few years.

Depends who you ask. I actually love watching the Warriors and will only sit through a commercial when they are on. The rest of the NBA is unwatchable and bad basketball. That isn't Durants fault.

 

[Walker11]

Anyways the problem here isn't Kyrie, or even Love. It's that GSW has 1 extra stud player, the Cavs role players being completely useless in this series, and the fact that Durant is playing at a level on par (and arguably better

3 of the 4 GSW stars are elite 2 way players. Steph looks good in defensive analytics but I wouldnt argue he is an elite defensive player.

On the other hand, Kyrie and Love are objectively bad defensive players. The Cavs have had a historically good offense at times this year - this is not the side of the court where I believe they need to improve.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

I don't think Love or Kyrie are the type of players to elevate their teammates. They weren't in the past, at least. Empty stats on bad teams. We have seen how Kyrie and Love play together without Lebron and it hasn't been good. Obviously, they wouldn't be 4-19 bad without Lebron but I think they would be a low seeded playoff team. A lot would depend on coaching. Ty Lue is no Brad Stevens. I think your idea is ridiculous but all I have is my opinion and we will likely never know how that team would do.

Extremely weak supporting points. At best they support the claim that it's arguable (which is exactly what I said). But none come close to proving that I am insane which you have now doubled down on making.

Even if true, they don't necessarily even have to make their teammates better as they already have the better.

I agree Stevens is the better coach. But better coaches have lost plenty of series before so it doesn't prove a whole lot.

So more or less I'm insane because my opinion differs from yours. Got it. You are a real clear thinker.

 

[MadDogRevival]

The warriors are the most fun team to watch that I've ever seen, they're entertaining.

You must be a big fan of the women's team. AmIright?
Because some of us are entertained by competitive sports.
Last year's 7 game finals was entertaining. Whoever won game 7, didn't matter, because it was a great series.
I'm not entertained by watching the women win by 40 most games.
Also not entertained by an NBA whose only intrigue over the next several seasons is going to be, "does GS sustain any critical injuries?" and "will they drop a game in the playoffs."
If I want entertainment, exhibition blowouts, I'll watch Globetrotter videos or repeats of the CT Women's undefeated seasons.

 

[mauconnfan]

Depends who you ask. I actually love watching the Warriors and will only sit through a commercial when they are on. The rest of the NBA is unwatchable and bad basketball. That isn't Durants fault.

This^

I mean they are a joy to watch, play together, move the ball around and run like the deuce. Fun to watch and the hate for KD? Really, do you watch the anointed best player in the league and the way he acts? Potentially the biggest whiner in the history of the game, great great player I get it but that doesn't give you the ability to hold onto refs every time a call doesn't go your way to find out why. KD just plays, good guy great player, chose a good team because, well because he can. Most of you would too.

 

[MadDogRevival]

Potentially the biggest whiner in the history of the game, (in reference to LeBron)

Guy gets fouled hard half the time he goes to the rim, with no call. It's laughable. Yes, he does too much questioning of the refs, but the video doesn't lie. Watch a reply of the power dunk he threw down blowing past Durant and dunking before Javelle McGee gets there. Durant fouls him on the arm and he powers through it. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't like the whining, but the guy gets hammered constantly and doesn't get the calls (like Jordan did) because he's so damn big and physical.

KD just plays, good guy great player, chose a good team because, well because he can. Most of you would too.

Chose a "good" team. LOL.
Well, I suppose none of us could say what we would do in the same situation, but, given that money was not the motivation, the only motivation he had was to win rings. I consider the move cowardly. I try not to be cowardly in life, so, maybe, I would not have made that choice.

Going to a competitive team? Yeah, I'd do that in a heartbeat; I like to win, and it makes no sense for KD to go to a Cleveland +rookie Lebron situation and throw away 5 years on an uncompetitive team. Going to a stacked team that was already the favorite to win it all? Nah. I don't want to win badly enough to have that asterisk next to all the Ws. Pun!

 

[FartMan69]

Love the amount of people saying how much they hate these superteams yet still cling to the days of the 80's Celtics/Lakers and 90's Bulls. Remember the last time the league had true parity? Yeah me neither. Get over it and if it bothers you so much wait for the next wave of dynasties.

 

[polycom]

Can a great basketball mind walk me through why Lebron with less than 1 min left is standing under the 3 point line to stop the ball from KD? Help me understand.

 

[Walker11]

Extremely weak supporting points. At best they support the claim that it's arguable (which is exactly what I said). But none come close to proving that I am insane which you have now doubled down on making.

Even if true, they don't necessarily even have to make their teammates better as they already have the better.

I agree Stevens is the better coach. But better coaches have lost plenty of series before so it doesn't prove a whole lot.

So more or less I'm insane because my opinion differs from yours. Got it. You are a real clear thinker.

I am not saying you are crazy or dumb, just that I strongly disagree with one opinion. There aren't exactly facts to support this purely hypothetical situation for either of us so I see no need to carry on.

 

[Dogdeacon]

1. LeBron decline or vs KD debate is silly, switch those two and the series is even less competitive. LeBron on the Warriors would have EVERYONE declaring the league is unfair, rigged, foregone conclusion.
2. Likewise Cleveland's roster looks decent because LeBron is on it, drawing defenders and delivering the ball right in pocket to JR Smith, Love & others - take him off the team and Cavs at best right there with everyone else in the east.
3. Last night Cleveland ran out of gas late, again its basketball 101 that you slow the game down when the other team has more athletic players and better shooters. Criminally bad strategy.
4. I greatly enjoy watching the Warriors execute and play at this high level and really hope the Cavs change strategy now, slow it down and can take 1 game for pride. This is very important to LeBron and I think they'll change strategies and win game 4. He is NOT lying down like a dog, no possible way.
5. Mostly I want #4 to be true because I want to see 2 more Warriors games - even though I'm rooting for the Warriors, I was almost disappointed to see them win despite the herculean efforts of James & Irving last night. Those 2 were the best out there for most of the game (notwithstanding KThompson early, a few Curry flurries and Durant late).

 

[MadDogRevival]

Love the amount of people saying how much they hate these superteams yet still cling to the days of the 80's Celtics/Lakers and 90's Bulls.

2017 GSW >>> any of those three teams.
The 80s Celts and Lakers were competitive and awesome sport.
The 90s Bulls ran into few good teams. There were no Cavs/Spurs type opponents.

The 2017 GSW are, IMO, the best team ever assembled in the NBA, and they are an order of magnitude above the next best teams. More importantly, the teams you reference were built with trades and drafts. The GSW's were built on the whimsy of a top 3 five player in the league.

The equivalent from the 80s would have been Dominque Wilkins leaving the Hawks and going to the Lakers. Or in the 90s Karl Malone leaving the Jazz and going to the Bulls. It's laughably stupid and bad for the sport, if not for the "entertainment" value to the average viewer.

 

[husky429]

Love the amount of people saying how much they hate these superteams yet still cling to the days of the 80's Celtics/Lakers and 90's Bulls. Remember the last time the league had true parity? Yeah me neither. Get over it and if it bothers you so much wait for the next wave of dynasties.

Like it or not, this Warriors team is the most stacked team in the history of the modern NBA as far as talent. I have no problem with curry, thompson, or draymond, they worked to get the team this good. I still feel like Durant copped out with the move. It's his right, but it makes me lose some respect for him.

the teThe Warriors have 2 top 5 players, the 2nd best shooter in the history of the game (and top 5 at his position), and a DPOY candidate (probably top 10 at his position), as well as a former star in Igoudala, and the best roleplayers in the league. They are unstoppable with KD, and they were CLOSE to unstoppable without him.

Part of the beauty of Larry bird in particular was that he (in my opinion) elevated his team SO much. Magic had the same effect, with a better supporting cast that Bird, I think. MJ is a bit different in that his teams were still pretty good without him, but he just had that nasty, angry competitive drive that put teams over the edge to greatness.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

I am not saying you are crazy or dumb, just that I strongly disagree with one opinion. There aren't exactly facts to support this purely hypothetical situation for either of us so I see no need to carry on.

Actually that's exactly what you did. You called me insane and ridiculous for stating what I said and haven't provided any supporting evidence to support your claim.

We can disagree. That's fine. But get off your high horse calling people's opinions insane and ridiculous just because they differ from yours. And if you're going to, at least back it up.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Can a great basketball mind walk me through why Lebron with less than 1 min left is standing under the 3 point line to stop the ball from KD? Help me understand.

He was gassed, they are playing unsustainable pace too dependent on LeBron. He was missing layups he normally makes and the team is simply too dependent on LeBron at both ends.

 

[polycom]

He was gassed, they are playing unsustainable pace too dependent on LeBron. He was missing layups he normally makes and the team is simply too dependent on LeBron at both ends.

So, you're saying it was a mental lapse by LeBron which essentially cost the Cavs the game...