NBA Finals Thread

[superjohn]

Not one great had to play balls to the wall for 44 minutes against the best team ever assembled prior to those last two minutes. Completely not fair to judge him on the last 2 minutes. If LBJ wasn't in the game, the Cavs would have been down by 30 with 2 minutes left.

Man, the hate on this guy is strong.

I suppose the main reason I now can't stand Kevin Durant (as a basketball player) is because he ruined what would have been an epic 3rd matchup. Without KD, we're probably looking at a 7 game series, and either Curry/Thompson's greatness or James' would have emerged and been part of the lore.

Now, instead, we have a boring series with a guy who couldn't get it done until he jointed the guys who kept beating him. He's pathetic.

He stole his false glory from those three guys, and made the thing a farce. People won't look back in 10 years and talk about how great Curry was. Nope. They'll be thinking, "yah, KD was sure huge in that series."

It's not fair to judge the best player in the world and what some would argue the best player ever on the final 2 minutes of a finals game?

 

[traitor71]

In his defense Kyrie is maybe the best iso player in the NBA but I agree the best player in the world needs the ball in his hands at the end and needs to get to the rack.

Irving took that ball and raced down court. He and his defender were down there by themselves for a second or two and I really thought he was going to attack the basket. He hesitated though and took that garbage shot. I can't totally kill Lebron for never getting the ball from a guy who didn't appear ready to give it up at all. All of the other possessions in the last few minutes are a different story though. Other than his final shot attempt of course, which was really good defense from Iguodala.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Which is exactly what Lebron did when he joined the Heat. I don't get the hate. The league needs to find a way to make it harder for moves like that (or Lebron's) to happen.

Oh, so LeBron was up 3-1 in the Conference Finals against a 73-win (Bosh-less) defending champion Heat team who already had 4 HOFers, then choked it away, then joined said team. Yup, exactly the same.

 

[mauconnfan]

Lebron joined a top 5 player who already led his team to an NBA title and recruited the best power forward in the game to Miami to in their words win 5, 6, 7, 8 championships. In doing this he knew Cleveland would suck and would accumulate high draft picks. Once Lebron saw how good Kyrie was and saw that the team would have the space to bring in Love a 26 & 12 player he knew he had enough to win and could come home a savior.

I don't fault him for it, just like I don't fault the Celtics for joining up together to try and win championships.

I don't fault either of them Samson Johnson, but both he and KD did make very similar moves to win in the locations they chose, that's all I'm saying. Heck I don't even care who wins what unless it's the C's. I'm just looking at the 2 guys both great players in their own right and they did what the NBA allowed. Can't fault them.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

Oh, so LeBron was up 3-1 in the Conference Finals against a 73-win (Bosh-less) defending champion Heat team, then choked it away, then joined said team. Yup, exactly the same.

There is no way for it to be "exactly the same" by your definition because the only way this is possible is if they left the same team in the same year and joined the same team (and were the same person which of course is impossible).

The general premise behind it is that they both left contending teams (OKC was much better/more of a contender than Lebron's cleveland) to join super teams. One was already formed and the other became one in the process of free agency which was contingent upon him even going there.

Only difference is that GS was much better than the Heat (although the team lbj joined wasnt the same as the year before so its an impossible comparison) and lebron didn't join the team that just beat him.

So Durant did a similar action except it was more extreme. Its a fair comparison even if its not "exactly the same" which would be impossible to do anyways.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Oh, so LeBron was up 3-1 in the Conference Finals against a 73-win (Bosh-less) defending champion Heat team who already had 4 HOFers, then choked it away, then joined said team. Yup, exactly the same.

Who cares about some 3-1 series? What difference does that make? Lebron and the Cavs repeatedly could not get through the Eastern conference, so when he became a free agent he left to join what was then then best team in the conference. Both Durant and Lebron took their prior team to one NBA Final Both of them also lost in the playoffs several times.

People are acting like Durant timed this. He left when he was able to leave. That's how contracts work. What happened the prior year is completely irrelevant. Both of them did exactly the same thing.

 

[mauconnfan]

Nobody's saying KD did anything illegal. UNC didn't do anything illegal, either; that's not the point.

A 33 win team vs. a 73 win team? I think that's a pretty big difference. I don't hate KD, but I think it's pretty absurd to compare him to Lebron when Lebron has carried multiple teams to titles, while KD (because he was unable to do that) decided to go along for the ride.

Would he have "carried" Miami to a title without other very good players? No so what's the difference. Why didn't he just stay in Cleveland then and never leave?

 

[HuskyHawk]

There is no way for it to be "exactly the same" by your definition because the only way this is possible is if they left the same team in the same year and joined the same team (and were the same person which of course is impossible).

The general premise behind it is that they both left contending teams (OKC was much better/more of a contender than Lebron's cleveland) to join super teams. One was already formed and the other became one in the process of free agency which was contingent upon him even going there.

Only difference is that GS was much better than the Heat (although the team lbj joined wasnt the same as the year before so its an impossible comparison) and lebron didn't join the team that just beat him.

So Durant did a similar action except it was more extreme. Its a fair comparison even if its not "exactly the same" which would be impossible to do anyways.

And one reason Lebron didn't leave to join the team that beat him the season before was because the Cavs lost to Boston, so didn't reach the conference finals.

 

[Rocktheworld]

There is no way for it to be "exactly the same" by your definition because the only way this is possible is if they left the same team in the same year and joined the same team (and were the same person which of course is impossible).

Nope, wouldn't require that. But even omitting that, "exactly" is an absolutely ridiculous word to use.

The general premise behind it is that they both left contending teams (OKC was much better/more of a contender than Lebron's cleveland) to join super teams.

Thanks for refuting your own point for me, in the same sentence you make it.

Only difference is that GS was much better than the Heat (although the team lbj joined wasnt the same as the year before so its an impossible comparison) and lebron didn't join the team that just beat him.

Well, as you said above, another massive difference was the teams each respective player left. KD had Russ, Adams, and Ibaka, a very very solid core, and had Billy Donovan coming in to coach. LeBron had...?

So Durant did a similar action except it was more extreme. Its a fair comparison even if its not "exactly the same" which would be impossible to do anyways.

I do not accept the idea that what they each did were qualitatively the same, just on different points along some spectrum. At best, the similarities are akin to murder vs manslaughter. Yeah, in both cases someone is dead and someone is responsible, but there are serious qualitative differences between the two charges

 

[Rocktheworld]

Who cares about some 3-1 series?

People who care about context; which, evidently, you don't. Which means that this conversation is officially pointless.

Have a good one

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

Nope, wouldn't require that. But even omitting that, "exactly" is an absolutely ridiculous word to use.


Thanks for refuting your own point for me, in the same sentence you make it.

Well, as you said above, another massive difference was the teams each respective player left. KD had Russ, Adams, and Ibaka, a very very solid core, and had Billy Donovan coming in to coach. LeBron had...?


I do not accept the idea that what they each did were qualitatively the same, just on different points along some spectrum. At best, the similarities are akin to murder vs manslaughter. Yeah, in both cases someone is dead and someone is responsible, but there are serious qualitative differences between the two charges

you used the word exactly. maybe you were responding to a poster who said it first?

I didn't refute my point at all. They were both contending teams. fact. OKC was better. fact. I said KD did generally the same thing but more extreme. this isn't refuting anything.

The situations were different (i never said otherwise) but the end result is the same. they both left their former teams to join super teams. not sure why that is so hard to grasp to you. Lebron himself predicted not 4, not 5, not 6. surely you don't forget that. He saw his new team as an unbeatable dynasty, similarly to how I'm sure KD saw GSW with him.

Lebrons team lost in the first year though (and he was awful). KD not so much. just another minor difference.

 

[Kenny11]

So will Matt Barnes kill Derrick Fisher before or after the conclusion of the finals?

 

[HuskyHawk]

People who care about context; which, evidently, you don't. Which means that this conversation is officially pointless.

Have a good one

That context is entirely arbitrary. Boston recruited Lebron that offseason, and that's who he lost to. He only went to Miami because they also convinced Bosh to come. His team had finished with the best record several years, and yet he never won a title and only got the finals once. He wanted to win and that drove his decision. Durant wanted to win and that drove his decision. If OKC loses to San Antonio not GS, Durant still goes to GS.

 

[NielsisGood]

The 2009-10 Heat did not win 73 games. The 2013-14 Cavs did not win 73 games. Lebron was not joining a championship team, as Durant was. He was trying to build one. Lebron's return to Cleveland was not motivated by ring chasing or money. There would have been better places to go, if he had been. He "promised" to bring a title to Cleveland, which is definitely part of the reason that he went back.

Cavs traded a #1 pick and a guy they had taken #1 the year before for a then-all star player. How is trading young/future assets for a ready made player not ring chasing? Why did the Heat big 3 have their "We're not gonna win 3 titles, not 4, not 5, etc" moment if the expectation was anything other than being a perennial title favorite?

 

[ivrytontusker]

Would he have "carried" Miami to a title without other very good players? No so what's the difference. Why didn't he just stay in Cleveland then and never leave?

Cavs traded a #1 pick and a guy they had taken #1 the year before for a then-all star player. How is trading young/future assets for a ready made player not ring chasing? Why did the Heat big 3 have their "We're not gonna win 3 titles, not 4, not 5, etc" moment if the expectation was anything other than being a perennial title favorite?

Lebron didn't join a team that had just won 73 games and was a title winner without him, that's the difference. No Lebron and the Heat (or Cavs) aren't near the Finals. No Durant and the Warriors are still favored to win the title.

 

[NielsisGood]

Lebron didn't join a team that had just won 73 games and was a title winner without him, that's the difference. No Lebron and the Heat (or Cavs) aren't near the Finals. No Durant and the Warriors are still favored to win the title.

But both are still cases of a guy leaving a for a better situation. Both left teams that they had trouble making the finals with went to situations that made them title favorites. It doesn't matter how good the teams were before they got there.

 

[champs99and04]

I'm a Durant fan and an even bigger Warriors fan, but if you can't see how his decision to sign with Golden State differs from LeBron's and you can't see why people are upset by it, then you just aren't even willing to engage in any sort of objective conversation. I've liked most of your takes ITT @superjohn but comparing it to the Celtics is completely laughable.

Moreover, there is room between "this is the most spineless thing I've ever seen and it has ruined the sport" and "if you don't like watching the Warriors play you're not a basketball fan."

I get that dominance and competitiveness have to be mutually exclusive. You can't have one without the other. Myself, I've enjoyed it, at least through one year. I think it's cool to watch the greatest basketball team of my lifetime methodically eviscerate their opponent every night, and if Golden State wins by 40 tonight there will be nobody happier than me.

But right now it's a novelty. Next year, it might not be, and if the optics of the current league are bad, it's because the Warriors make the other teams and games and series' not matter. I can't remember that ever being the case for as long as I've watched, maybe in the early 2000's when the Shaq/Kobe Lakers were doing their thing (and even then, it was really only '01 that they cruised through unblemished). There is a lack of suspense that is decidedly bad for the sport.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Lol what? I've been arguing that Lebron is the GOAT. Lebron > Jordan. However, Lebron's defensive lapse isn't a little thing...I'm not using the play to determine his legacy.. but that play that play is key to why the Cavs lost as well as the turnaround jumper Lebron took.

I disagree, the -10 or -12 when LeBron sat down is a huge stat to think about when fully processing the post-game analysis. Yes the game was on the line in those final few plays, but LeBron made the great play and pass to Korver that could have won the game (5pt lead pre-Durant 3) and likewise a few plays earlier LeBron got 2 straight offensive rebounds, JR Smith missed a 3 and then LeBron found Love underneath & had either converted, the lead would have been insurmountable (8 or 9, instead Curry makes a layup to cut it to 4). Ultimately its a team sport and Irving's shot to win the finals last year rises all boats (LeBron's), but his teammates misses Wednesday night don't diminish LeBron's greatness. The final plays are result of both the misses and fact that the team couldn't survive him sitting down for even 2 minutes. The fact that the Cavs with LeBron on the floor outscored the juggernaut Warriors team is quite remarkable - if Cavs had a better strategy in this series LeBron's (and Kyrie's one on one brilliance) individual greatness might have trumped the Warrior's team greatness.
I'm predicting Cavaliers 95, Warriors 92 tonight.

 

[Rocktheworld]

But both are still cases of a guy leaving a for a better situation. Both left teams that they had trouble making the finals with went to situations that made them title favorites. It doesn't matter how good the teams were before they got there.

Doesn't shock me that someone who comes up with "NielsisGood" (and I can't not read that in my head with a doofey voice) as a handle repeatedly fails to generate a half-decent argument.

 

[NielsisGood]

I forgot who had said it yesterday, but obviously the exact situations between the 2 aren't 100% the same. The overarching reasons for LeBron and Durant's team changes have been the same. It mostly just seems like a needless waste of mental energy to hate Durant 10% more because he went to a team that was already established as opposed to LeBron orchestrating moves to end up with 2 other top all-star players supporting him on his teams. Pretty much everyone hated LeBron when he first went to Miami and a lot of people have softened on that stance since. I imagine things will play out similarly for Durant, because the end result ends up being the same whether you build a super team via free agency & trades, or join one that's already been established.

 

[NielsisGood]

Doesn't shock me that someone who comes up with "NielsisGood" (and I can't not read that in my head with a doofey voice) as a handle repeatedly fails to generate a half-decent argument.

It does shock me that someone who comes up with something as unoriginal and uninspiring as "Rocktheworld" would seriously try to infer anything from anyone else's username.

 

[mauconnfan]

Doesn't shock me that someone who comes up with "NielsisGood" (and I can't not read that in my head with a doofey voice) as a handle repeatedly fails to generate a half-decent argument.

The point though is it's an "argument." What makes anyone right here more than Neils? There's a reason no one agrees here, it's up for debate and it won't have a definitive winner as everyone is right and wrong. So no need to hammer each other on handles, geez.

 

[tzznandrew]

The overarching reasons for LeBron and Durant's team changes have been the same. It mostly just seems like a needless waste of mental energy to hate Durant 10% more because he went to a team that was already established as opposed to LeBron orchestrating moves to end up with 2 other top all-star players supporting him on his teams.

Durant/Curry/Klay vs. LeBron/Wade/Bosh is probably advantage Miami, historically speaking, if we're being honest.

Draymond, and the bench, is what tilts that scale to the Warriors. But the peak Heat teams of 2011-2013 would give this team a run for its money, though I still think the Warriors would win.

 

[Rocktheworld]

It does shock me that someone who comes up with something as unoriginal and uninspiring as "Rocktheworld" would seriously try to infer anything from anyone else's username.

 

[tzznandrew]

Hey peeps, can we keep this focused on the topic at hand and avoid the ad hominem junk here.