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NBA Finals Thread

Mr. French

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I'm a Durant fan and an even bigger Warriors fan, but if you can't see how his decision to sign with Golden State differs from LeBron's and you can't see why people are upset by it, then you just aren't even willing to engage in any sort of objective conversation. I've liked most of your takes ITT @superjohn but comparing it to the Celtics is completely laughable.

Moreover, there is room between "this is the most spineless thing I've ever seen and it has ruined the sport" and "if you don't like watching the Warriors play you're not a basketball fan."

I get that dominance and competitiveness have to be mutually exclusive. You can't have one without the other. Myself, I've enjoyed it, at least through one year. I think it's cool to watch the greatest basketball team of my lifetime methodically eviscerate their opponent every night, and if Golden State wins by 40 tonight there will be nobody happier than me.

But right now it's a novelty. Next year, it might not be, and if the optics of the current league are bad, it's because the Warriors make the other teams and games and series' not matter. I can't remember that ever being the case for as long as I've watched, maybe in the early 2000's when the Shaq/Kobe Lakers were doing their thing (and even then, it was really only '01 that they cruised through unblemished). There is a lack of suspense that is decidedly bad for the sport.

All true.

But, and this isn't definite but should provide many a sense of calm: The NBA has always been about a miniscule number of franchises dominating for a few years at a time, then being overtaken.

It's human nature's recency bias, but I remember thinking and/or knowing that no one was beating X team. That was usually true,for a year, two, three ... Eventually something overtakes them. It never lasts as long as it seems or is as bad as it seems.

I knew Jordan wasn't losing those titles, though I watched still to see if they would. The early 2000s Lakers appeared unstoppable. If you recall, they won 3 straight, Kobe was going INTO his prime, and they added Malone, Payton, etc.

The 2010-era Lakers had a 2-peat, 3 straight appearances, then ADDED 2 hall of famers (or at the time, HOFers). They fell apart.

I'm with you about all said about KD. I don't hate him, I just wish he wouldn't have gone there. But they ain't winning 6 titles in 7 years or something. It just wont happen.
 
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Durant/Curry/Klay vs. LeBron/Wade/Bosh is probably advantage Miami, historically speaking, if we're being honest.

Draymond, and the bench, is what tilts that scale to the Warriors. But the peak Heat teams of 2011-2013 would give this team a run for its money, though I still think the Warriors would win.
Interesting discussion on this on the Lowe post yesterday. They (Zach Lowe, Howard Beck) brought up the point that in the modern era it started with the Celtics, mostly Danny Ainge creating the super-team via the Ray Allen trade that facilitated Garnett ok-ing a move he'd previously refused and creating a super team obstacle that thwarted LeBron. LeBron trumped that move on his own as a player - pretty impressive and admirable if you view it from afar. Its like an employee led buyout.

And somehow when its a GM or owner or the weird rules of NBA salary structures creating teams we don't fault the players (even though for the Celtics example Garnett's signoff was truly key) when in reality we should be rooting for the athletes as much as the uniforms and certainly moreso than owners.
For me there's just too much jealousy behind the schadenfreude. I think Niels nailed it though and saying we should hate Durant 10% more b/c the team he went to was better highlights the absurdity of the viewpoint. I want Chris Paul to go to the Spurs or for Melo & some others to join Clippers to create other super-teams. KLove for PGeorge probably won't happen (why would Pacers do it) but it would get the finals teams a lot closer. Or I'm 100% ok with LeBron moving to LA in 18-19 and creating a banana boat super team with CP3, Melo & Wade IF its the Clippers b/c I hate the Laker uni ;)
 
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All true.

But, and this isn't definite but should provide many a sense of calm: The NBA has always been about a miniscule number of franchises dominating for a few years at a time, then being overtaken.

It's human nature's recency bias, but I remember thinking and/or knowing that no one was beating X team. That was usually true,for a year, two, three ... Eventually something overtakes them. It never lasts as long as it seems or is as bad as it seems.

I knew Jordan wasn't losing those titles, though I watched still to see if they would. The early 2000s Lakers appeared unstoppable. If you recall, they won 3 straight, Kobe was going INTO his prime, and they added Malone, Payton, etc.

The 2010-era Lakers had a 2-peat, 3 straight appearances, then ADDED 2 hall of famers (or at the time, HOFers). They fell apart.

I'm with you about all said about KD. I don't hate him, I just wish he wouldn't have gone there. But they ain't winning 6 titles in 7 years or something. It just wont happen.

No doubt your historical perspective is accurate, which I think in a way proves everybody right. Theoretically, in 2017, the league should be better than it was one, two, three decades ago, no? The ratings would prove me wrong, but I don't clamor for Jordan's Bulls the way some do. I think the influx of international stars circa '03/'04 elevated the sport to heights it had never seen, even if it would take a little while for it to be reflected in the quality of the product.

For those equating what we're seeing currently to LeBron joining the Heat, though, I would vehemently disagree. Just look at the landscape of the league in 2011 - the period where I believe it peaked as a union between the old guard and the new wave of talent - when people first began to question the competitive balance. These were your second round match-ups:

Grizzlies-Thunder - Memphis, just having shocked the top seeded Spurs, took Oklahoma City seven. Game four - with the Thunder trailing the series 2-1 - went 3 overtimes.

Celtics-Heat - Separated by only two games during the regular season, this one ends in five but was much closer and more dramatic than that would indicate. Game four went to overtime and the Heat came back in the fourth quarter to win game five with LeBron going on an epic 11-0 run and then kneeling to the floor in emotion at the buzzer. Akin here to Jordan finally beating the Pistons.

Hawks-Bulls - Fairly forgettable series, over in six. This was the Hawks team with Jeff Teague, Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford, Horford, and Josh Smith.

Lakers-Mavs - Two time defending champs going against a Dallas team that was presumed to be soft based on reputation. Ends in a sweep with Dallas storming back to win game one and then barely surviving game three.

Next round you get Thunder-Mavs and Bulls-Heat. Both ended in five but featured more than enough drama. The Mavs overcame a 15 point deficit in the final 15 minutes of game four to swing the series from 2-2- to 3-1 and then made another fourth quarter comeback in game five. Game four of Heat-Bulls went to overtime and game five ended with Chicago blowing an eight point lead in the final three minutes.

Everybody remembers Heat-Mavs. You had your epic game two comeback, games three and four being decided by one possession, and then Dallas pulling away late in games five and six.

I won't bother calculating the point differentials, but I imagine there's a demonstrable difference there in the general competitiveness of games. You had a ton of up-and-coming stars like Westbrook, Durant, Harden, Marc Gasol, Conley, and Rondo merged with the old guard like Garnett, Pierce, Allen, Kobe, Gasol, Dirk, Kidd, Odom, etc. It felt conceivable that five or six of them could win the championship, and no matter how the match-ups worked out, the finals would be loaded with stars and compelling story lines.

So I don't necessarily agree - not that you said this - that the NBA has never had parity because it has. It had parity last year when there were at least four teams (Cleveland, Golden State, San Antonio, and Oklahoma City) capable of winning a championship and it had drama when ever series from the second round on had the potential to flip the trajectory of the league. I think it's a cop out - both on the part of fans and the commissioner - to settle for good when there are enough great players in the world for it to be great. The NBA should be seizing this opportunity in an era where baseball has lost its appeal and the downfall of football looms.
 
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That is a Geriatric Super team

They wouldn't get past the West semis

In a few years teams like the Nuggets, Pelicans, Portland, Lakers (signing PG), T Wolves and Suns will be very tough outs not to mention Spurs, Rockets, GSW

And expect Cuban to get the Mavs relevant again

If I was Indy I might do a Love for PG deal knowing PG is gone after next season and at least you get a piece back

They should try and do something now to get the Lakers #2 and a few pieces like Russell or Randle


Or I'm 100% ok with LeBron moving to LA in 18-19 and creating a banana boat super team with CP3, Melo & Wade IF its the Clippers b/c I hate the Laker uni ;)
 

intlzncster

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It is bad for the NBA

KD is a total joke. He gets booed in every arena except Oracle.

He'll get his ring, which everyone will put a mental asterisk on

Have you watched this guy play?? He's absolutely beasting. Imo he's been better than LBJ if you look at the entire series. Although, yes, a good portion of that is that he has better teammates and less on his plate.
 

intlzncster

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Interesting discussion on this on the Lowe post yesterday. They (Zach Lowe, Howard Beck) brought up the point that in the modern era it started with the Celtics, mostly Danny Ainge creating the super-team via the Ray Allen trade that facilitated Garnett ok-ing a move he'd previously refused and creating a super team obstacle that thwarted LeBron. LeBron trumped that move on his own as a player - pretty impressive and admirable if you view it from afar. Its like an employee led buyout.

And somehow when its a GM or owner or the weird rules of NBA salary structures creating teams we don't fault the players (even though for the Celtics example Garnett's signoff was truly key) when in reality we should be rooting for the athletes as much as the uniforms and certainly moreso than owners.
For me there's just too much jealousy behind the schadenfreude. I think Niels nailed it though and saying we should hate Durant 10% more b/c the team he went to was better highlights the absurdity of the viewpoint. I want Chris Paul to go to the Spurs or for Melo & some others to join Clippers to create other super-teams. KLove for PGeorge probably won't happen (why would Pacers do it) but it would get the finals teams a lot closer. Or I'm 100% ok with LeBron moving to LA in 18-19 and creating a banana boat super team with CP3, Melo & Wade IF its the Clippers b/c I hate the Laker uni ;)

Ya, I do not want Bron going to the Lakers. If they take Ball #2, we'd never, ever, ever hear the end of Lavar Ball claiming his son revitalized the Lakers. No thanks.

That and they are the closest to catching Boston for overall most glorious franchise.
 

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Well that's a helluva first quarter for the Cavs. And with only seven points from Lebron. Wow.
 
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Have you watched this guy play?? He's absolutely beasting. Imo he's been better than LBJ if you look at the entire series. Although, yes, a good portion of that is that he has better teammates and less on his plate.

It may be bad for the NBA but the rest of his argument is false. KD does not get booed at every NBA arena. Not even close. The outrage towards Lebron was not even comparable, and people are already over that. And half of the stars coming off the books in the next few years will be doing the exact same thing.
 
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Good Kyrie is so damn good. This is a ton of fun to watch.
 

Jaybo

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I hate the NBA... does either team even have a center?
 
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Lebron should be used as a center he is getting to the rim at will and is getting open 3's for JR and Korver.
 
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The refs magically changing the first tech from Dray to Kerr is a bad play. I agree with Van Gundy in that the second shouldn't have been a tech...but pretending the first wasn't is terrible.

Cavs are probably going to win this game. But they're not making good decisions this half and the Warriors are plugging away...
 

Mr. French

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Too bad Cleveland lost game 3 ... That game will haunt them. They choked that game away, and this series is 2-2. People wouldn't be expressing the hyperbole as strong as they are at 3-0.
 
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Still a lot of time 14 pt deficit for GS is nothing.
 
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Seriously, why would you not start Lebron in the 4th?
Worse, why would you keep Curry and Durant on the bench when you have the ball and are down 13? A couple of wasted possessions after cutting it to 11 and suddenly its 16 again.

Your goal is to win the series as soon as possible. No hope.

They can still win this, but that was their best chance.
 
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Cavs gotta let the air out of the ball get it down to 15-10 on the shot clock.
 

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