Jalen Carey

[champs99and04]

Waiters

He's had exactly one half of a good season in the NBA. I have no problem considering Waiters a success story for them (he was the 31st ranked recruit who went #4 in the draft), but if that's your definition then you might as well throw Michael Carter-Williams in there as well.

Kemba is better than both of them, but we're probably going to have a tough time winning these arguments. Whether it's their fault or not, the staff has whiffed on turning a few highly regarded guards into pros. Calhoun, Purvis, and Hamilton all fell short of the first round, Adams is almost 22 and does not appear to be anywhere near any draft boards, and whatever legend Shabazz carried with him as just about fizzled out.

I have no doubts about Ollie's ability to develop guards. They're going to have a tough time winning the battle of perception, though, especially when Kemba and Bazz will both be seen as Calhoun players. Young coaches rarely get the benefit of the doubt on these matters.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

He's had exactly one half of a good season in the NBA. I have no problem considering Waiters a success story for them (he was the 31st ranked recruit who went #4 in the draft), but if that's your definition then you might as well throw Michael Carter-Williams in there as well.

Kemba is better than both of them, but we're probably going to have a tough time winning these arguments. Whether it's their fault or not, the staff has whiffed on turning a few highly regarded guards into pros. Calhoun, Purvis, and Hamilton all fell short of the first round, Adams is almost 22 and does not appear to be anywhere near any draft boards, and whatever legend Shabazz carried with him as just about fizzled out.

I have no doubts about Ollie's ability to develop guards. They're going to have a tough time winning the battle of perception, though, especially when Kemba and Bazz will both be seen as Calhoun players. Young coaches rarely get the benefit of the doubt on these matters.

Just mentioning he's a pretty good player from Cuse. Also signed a pretty lucrative contract recently.

 

[methodology]

He's had exactly one half of a good season in the NBA. I have no problem considering Waiters a success story for them (he was the 31st ranked recruit who went #4 in the draft), but if that's your definition then you might as well throw Michael Carter-Williams in there as well.

Kemba is better than both of them, but we're probably going to have a tough time winning these arguments. Whether it's their fault or not, the staff has whiffed on turning a few highly regarded guards into pros. Calhoun, Purvis, and Hamilton all fell short of the first round, Adams is almost 22 and does not appear to be anywhere near any draft boards, and whatever legend Shabazz carried with him as just about fizzled out.

I have no doubts about Ollie's ability to develop guards. They're going to have a tough time winning the battle of perception, though, especially when Kemba and Bazz will both be seen as Calhoun players. Young coaches rarely get the benefit of the doubt on these matters.

Calhoun had pretty serious injury that clearly affected him. Purvis transferred because nc st had players passing over him in the rotation and realized he wasn't as good as he was rated in high school. Shabazz had an uphill battle to even be drafted because of size and if not for LeBron never would have gotten a guaranteed contract. The blazers have had nothing but great things to say about him and he seems to be settling into the 3rd PG role which he was always going to be

 

[Hugo]

And he was one hell of a player Hugo.

I saw Bing play in the field house back then and he was a really talented player. Unfortunately we lost that game despite a good game from Toby who schooled the Cuse center.

 

[HuskyFich]

and whatever legend Shabazz carried with him as just about fizzled out..

I know it's a very small sample size, but...

Portland Trail Blazers: Shabazz Napier saw less playing time, more development

 

[champs99and04]

Calhoun had pretty serious injury that clearly affected him. Purvis transferred because nc st had players passing over him in the rotation and realized he wasn't as good as he was rated in high school. Shabazz had an uphill battle to even be drafted because of size and if not for LeBron never would have gotten a guaranteed contract. The blazers have had nothing but great things to say about him and he seems to be settling into the 3rd PG role which he was always going to be

Of course I know all that, but that's not how the game works. If Purvis, Calhoun, and Hamilton played for Calipari, there is a 0% chance people on this board would be giving him the benefit of the doubt. There are extenuating circumstances to every player, and while they haven't broken in Ollie's favor thus far, I'm not expecting him to get much slack for it. The results have been what they've been the last three years and they haven't been good in any component of running a program. That'll be tough to overcome when Boeheim has landed seven players - four of them guards - in the first round over the last six years.

Edit: It's worth mentioning that, despite all this, I think there is a very good chance he commits here. UConn carries more cachet as a guard-oriented program than Syracuse if for no other reason than that their players have been a lot more memorable. Nobody cares or remembers that Tyler Ennis played at Syracuse but people remember Kemba and Shabazz. Even Ryan Boatright probably resonates with recruits. Adams inevitably becoming a star won't hurt, either.

 

[UConnStats]

God, I would shutter at the fact that I have to call Waiters the shining example of my program's "successful" NBA guard. This past season was his best year and he was barely above league average in offensive efficiency. And before that he was one of the biggest jokes/memes in the NBA.

Shabazz is in a pretty good spot to surpass Waiters as he shined at the end of the season. Although he doesn't get the playing time, the numbers say Jeremy Lamb is already better in terms of efficiency. He just doesn't have the nerve to chuck like Waiters does.

I think Tyus Battle will be a solid bench player though. It's just tough to produce NBA caliber players when you play zone defense all year long in the NCAA then lose early in the tournament almost every year. Not even trying to disparage Cuse, Boeheim has found his way to being a HOF coach regardless, but his track record is what it is.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

God, I would shutter at the fact that I have to call Waiters the shining example of my program's "successful" NBA guard. This past season was his best year and he was barely above league average in offensive efficiency. And before that he was one of the biggest jokes/memes in the NBA.

Shabazz is in a pretty good spot to surpass Waiters as he shined at the end of the season. Although he doesn't get the playing time, the numbers say Jeremy Lamb is already better in terms of efficiency. He just doesn't have the nerve to chuck like Waiters does.

I think Tyus Battle will be a solid bench player though. It's just tough to produce NBA caliber players when you play zone defense all year long in the NCAA then lose early in the tournament almost every year. Not even trying to disparage Cuse, Boeheim has found his way to being a HOF coach regardless, but his track record is what it is.

I'm not saying Waiters is anything special, but suggesting Napier is about to surpass him seems to be a little biased. Waiters played 30 mpg opposed to Napier's 10, and averaged 16 ppg opposed to Napier's 4. Let's see Shabazz become a solid bench player before saying he's better than Waiters. Maybe he can, but imo it's not imminent.

 

[Walker11]

God, I would shutter at the fact that I have to call Waiters the shining example of my program's "successful" NBA guard. This past season was his best year and he was barely above league average in offensive efficiency. And before that he was one of the biggest jokes/memes in the NBA.

Shabazz is in a pretty good spot to surpass Waiters as he shined at the end of the season. Although he doesn't get the playing time, the numbers say Jeremy Lamb is already better in terms of efficiency. He just doesn't have the nerve to chuck like Waiters does.

I think Tyus Battle will be a solid bench player though. It's just tough to produce NBA caliber players when you play zone defense all year long in the NCAA then lose early in the tournament almost every year. Not even trying to disparage Cuse, Boeheim has found his way to being a HOF coach regardless, but his track record is what it is.

Waiters has had a far more successful career than either Lamb or Bazz. Waiters has only had 1 good season but Lamb has had maybe 2 good months and Bazz 2 good games.

Making the NBA in and of itself is a huge plus for the program. Who is Villes top 1 or 2 in the NBA? Rozier? Kansas? Chalmers?

 

[UConnStats]

Waiters has had a far more successful career than either Lamb or Bazz. Waiters has only had 1 good season but Lamb has had maybe 2 good months and Bazz 2 good games.

Making the NBA in and of itself is a huge plus for the program. Who is Villes top 1 or 2 in the NBA? Rozier? Kansas? Chalmers?

No doubt, and like I said it doesn't take away from Boeheim's career, but I doubt Boeheim makes his success at getting guards to the league a big part of his recruiting pitch.

And @CardiacAndre7, statistically Waiters is one of the least valuable players of his generation based on his amount of playing time and being below average on both sides of the ball. Maybe I overstated Shabazz's odds, but if he were to put up say a 105 ORtg these next 2 years at 15-20 mpg, he'd probably surpass Waiters' career WS because he's been a net negative or basically a wash for his team several times before.

By the way: Lamb has 10.5 career WS in comparison to Waiters' 7.4, and has done that playing 49% as often as Waiters. Lamb is no star, but that just goes to show just how little Waiters has brought to the table in his career.

 

[champs99and04]

Waiters has had a far more successful career than either Lamb or Bazz. Waiters has only had 1 good season but Lamb has had maybe 2 good months and Bazz 2 good games.

Making the NBA in and of itself is a huge plus for the program. Who is Villes top 1 or 2 in the NBA? Rozier? Kansas? Chalmers?

Am I wrong in saying that there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that Shabazz is not an NBA caliber player? I mean, I think he's a better basketball player than some of the guys in the NBA, if that makes sense. He's just not going to be very productive unless it's a circus show in game 81 or 82 where he's suddenly a top option. I'd bet he could go to a tanking team and put up decent numbers, but it's going to be tough to make it as a backup point guard when you're a 37% career shooter with an assist to turnover ratio below 2.

But yeah, even Duke. You've got Kyrie who was there for two weeks and then you have to go all the way back to Redick. Rivers and Seth Curry aren't anything to write home about. It's really hard to just be on an NBA roster, to actually make a dent in that league you have to be pretty incredible at basketball and there's no coach who is going to make that happen.

 

[mauconnfan]

Jalen Carey thread is a Cuse history in guards now. Damn the Boneyard is the best!

 

[Walker11]

Am I wrong in saying that there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that Shabazz is not an NBA caliber player? I mean, I think he's a better basketball player than some of the guys in the NBA, if that makes sense. He's just not going to be very productive unless it's a circus show in game 81 or 82 where he's suddenly a top option. I'd bet he could go to a tanking team and put up decent numbers, but it's going to be tough to make it as a backup point guard when you're a 37% career shooter with an assist to turnover ratio below 2.

But yeah, even Duke. You've got Kyrie who was there for two weeks and then you have to go all the way back to Redick. Rivers and Seth Curry aren't anything to write home about. It's really hard to just be on an NBA roster, to actually make a dent in that league you have to be pretty incredible at basketball and there's no coach who is going to make that happen.

He is an NBA caliber player because he is in the NBA and has had contracts picked up for 2 additional seasons. Thats really the only way to judge this. There are definitely guys outside the NBA who are better than him. The NBA is a weird place in that regard. There is very little that separates the guys on the bottom of the NBA totem pole from the best D Leaguers and best American Euros - it comes down to fit and opportunity and luck. Shabazz is in a great place for himself right now. It will come down to his shooting. If he shoots like he did last year, he is probably a 3rd PG, if he shoots better, he can probably be a capable backup and if he shoots worse, he will probably get dropped.

 

[the Q]

He's had exactly one half of a good season in the NBA. I have no problem considering Waiters a success story for them (he was the 31st ranked recruit who went #4 in the draft), but if that's your definition then you might as well throw Michael Carter-Williams in there as well.

Kemba is better than both of them, but we're probably going to have a tough time winning these arguments. Whether it's their fault or not, the staff has whiffed on turning a few highly regarded guards into pros. Calhoun, Purvis, and Hamilton all fell short of the first round, Adams is almost 22 and does not appear to be anywhere near any draft boards, and whatever legend Shabazz carried with him as just about fizzled out.

I have no doubts about Ollie's ability to develop guards. They're going to have a tough time winning the battle of perception, though, especially when Kemba and Bazz will both be seen as Calhoun players. Young coaches rarely get the benefit of the doubt on these matters.

It's tough because 2 out of those 3 were not. NBA level athletes and the third is pg side, but couldn't dribble almost at all and had the most bizarre habit stepping out of bounds on multiple drives, at a rate I don't think I've ever seen.

Not to mention sometimes recruiting services are just wrong and not indicative of NBA potential.

 

[Danzz]

You're creating a false equivalency here.

Uconn has every right to pride themselves on players that developed in the program, and under the head coach.

Chillious PERSONALLY will use his connections to Fultz to recruit, but I'm guessing we won't have Fultz all over our marketing, unlike Rutgers using Bazz and co.

Hobbes could PERSONALLY use uconn players history to recruit. And it shouldn't go beyond that

Cant imagine Hobbs developing guards based upon his own play. The man brought the ball down then turned and played with his back to the basket. He may not have sucked but he was close. Giscomb with his own faults should have started on those teams but Perno didn't like him. Hobbs was awful.

 

[husky429]

Cant imagine Hobbs developing guards based upon his own play. The man brought the ball down then turned and played with his back to the basket. He may not have sucked but he was close. Giscomb with his own faults should have started on those teams but Perno didn't like him. Hobbs was awful.

How you are as a player has less to do with how you are as a coach than people think.

One of the reasons why I think its ridiculous we think we need a former big man to be a bigs coach. Doesn't matter as long as we get results

 

[superjohn]

Am I wrong in saying that there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that Shabazz is not an NBA caliber player? I mean, I think he's a better basketball player than some of the guys in the NBA, if that makes sense. He's just not going to be very productive unless it's a circus show in game 81 or 82 where he's suddenly a top option. I'd bet he could go to a tanking team and put up decent numbers, but it's going to be tough to make it as a backup point guard when you're a 37% career shooter with an assist to turnover ratio below 2.

But yeah, even Duke. You've got Kyrie who was there for two weeks and then you have to go all the way back to Redick. Rivers and Seth Curry aren't anything to write home about. It's really hard to just be on an NBA roster, to actually make a dent in that league you have to be pretty incredible at basketball and there's no coach who is going to make that happen.

This is a new one, the guy who plays in the NBA isn't an NBA caliber player.

 

[upstater]

Hobbs singlehandedly defeated Patrick Ewing one game.

 

[Fishy]

Am I wrong in saying that there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that Shabazz is not an NBA caliber player? I mean, I think he's a better basketball player than some of the guys in the NBA, if that makes sense.

I assure you that you are making no sense whatsoever.

 

[champs99and04]

This is a new one, the guy who plays in the NBA isn't an NBA caliber player.

I assure you that you are making no sense whatsoever.

I simply stated that there was a lot of evidence to suggest he is not an NBA caliber player. And there is. That doesn't mean there isn't a counter case.

Ever wonder why certain guys are better college players than pros? Age obviously plays a role, but it's also about skill sets. Small, high usage guards are going to see a bigger discrepancy between their college and pro outputs than bigger, athletic players. There is a reason you would rather have Wesley Matthews or Danny Green on your NBA team than Shabazz Napier even though Napier might be more valuable in a pickup game. Being able to create your own shot is the most important skill in basketball, but the players who can do that - and declare for the draft on the basis of being able to do that - are entering a much more saturated job market than those who defend and shoot.

In basketball, value tends to reciprocate as talent increases.

 

[pj]

I simply stated that there was a lot of evidence to suggest he is not an NBA caliber player. And there is. That doesn't mean there isn't a counter case.

Ever wonder why certain guys are better college players than pros? Age obviously plays a role, but it's also about skill sets. Small, high usage guards are going to see a bigger discrepancy between their college and pro outputs than bigger, athletic players. There is a reason you would rather have Wesley Matthews or Danny Green on your NBA team than Shabazz Napier even though Napier might be more valuable in a pickup game. Being able to create your own shot is the most important skill in basketball, but the players who can do that - and declare for the draft on the basis of being able to do that - are entering a much more saturated job market than those who defend and shoot.

In basketball, value tends to reciprocate as talent increases.

Shabazz's main problem is his height. Yeah, he could use a little more quickness and leaping ability, but John Stockton and Steve Nash were not the quickest or most explosive athletes, and Shabazz like them is a crafty player, though 2-4" shorter. He is still learning his craft and is turning into an excellent NBA player. Players with Shabazz's shooting ability, court vision, and craftiness can cross a narrow threshold between not good enough for the NBA and NBA starter or even all-star. He needs more experience playing with NBA level talents and against NBA level defenders to hone his NBA point guard game, but don't sell him short.

Ryan Boatright is a good comparison. Great player, has the same height problem, extremely quick and explosive leaper, but lacks the passing/court vision and craftiness. There's a reason Shabazz is in the NBA and Ryan is not. It's not athleticism -- it's learning to be a point guard who can create for others and respond to a defense creatively. I hope Ryan is developing his point guard skills overseas because if he does he can make the NBA too, and wouldn't that be a cause to celebrate.

 

[superjohn]

I simply stated that there was a lot of evidence to suggest he is not an NBA caliber player. And there is. That doesn't mean there isn't a counter case.

Ever wonder why certain guys are better college players than pros? Age obviously plays a role, but it's also about skill sets. Small, high usage guards are going to see a bigger discrepancy between their college and pro outputs than bigger, athletic players. There is a reason you would rather have Wesley Matthews or Danny Green on your NBA team than Shabazz Napier even though Napier might be more valuable in a pickup game. Being able to create your own shot is the most important skill in basketball, but the players who can do that - and declare for the draft on the basis of being able to do that - are entering a much more saturated job market than those who defend and shoot.

In basketball, value tends to reciprocate as talent increases.

Dude, what are you talking about? He plays in the NBA which makes him an NBA caliber player.

 

[husky429]

Dude, what are you talking about? He plays in the NBA which makes him an NBA caliber player.

Youd think that is a good measure of NBA caliber player. But not on the boneyard.

 

[Danzz]

Hobbs singlehandedly defeated Patrick Ewing one game.

He also made a big shot against Nova. Now try coming up with a third highlight.

 

[Sonofabeach]

Andrew Slater‏ @ASlater247
6'3" PG Jalen Carey @yungswae5 of @JSnjPlayaz & Immaculate Conception earned offers from #Arizona & #Villanova http://247sports.com/Player/Jalen-Carey-8603