Adding Hayward wins now and helps to still win 3-4 years down the line (but he'll be post-peak). Adding Kyrie helps win in both timeframes. That's why Kyrie is so much more valuable than IT. That 538 article only talks about this year and doesn't mention that the Kyrie deal extends their window. The pick MAY have done that, but it's a crapshoot, especially if it doesn't fall top 3. A star at age 25 is exactly the type of player you want to build around both for right now and for the future.
OT: Celtics / Cavs megadeal
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Adding Hayward wins now and helps to still win 3-4 years down the line (but he'll be post-peak). Adding Kyrie helps win in both timeframes. That's why Kyrie is so much more valuable than IT. That 538 article only talks about this year and doesn't mention that the Kyrie deal extends their window. The pick MAY have done that, but it's a crapshoot, especially if it doesn't fall top 3. A star at age 25 is exactly the type of player you want to build around both for right now and for the future.
RayIsTheGOAT
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This is an excellent trade for Boston. Anyone who disagrees seems to forget that IT is nearly 30 and has a potentially costly hip issue (which can be even more disastrous for a 5'9" PG who relies on speed and acceleration).
Kyrie Irving will be a superstar PG in this league for the next 7 years.
Oh yeah, and the Celtics have Hayward and Horford, and still managed to keep Brown, Tatum, Smart and next year's Lakers pick. The future is very bright for the Cs.
Kyrie Irving will be a superstar PG in this league for the next 7 years.
Oh yeah, and the Celtics have Hayward and Horford, and still managed to keep Brown, Tatum, Smart and next year's Lakers pick. The future is very bright for the Cs.
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I agree, like the deal a lot. Think they will sign Kyrie long term.
Now have 2 elite scorers and surrounding them with other versatile players.
Tatum, Brown, Rozier and Smart will play major minutes this year.
Now have 2 elite scorers and surrounding them with other versatile players.
Tatum, Brown, Rozier and Smart will play major minutes this year.
It's debatable but either way, if Hayward is the best player on your team (or 2nd best), you're not beating a team with LeBron. You're just not.
Horford is nearly done. I wouldn't count on him for much, at least against the teams they'll need to beat.
the Q
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I agree with you for the most part.
But disagree, he could be your 2nd best player. Historically teams have won with a guy on GH's level as their 2nd best player (the 538 article I posted shows his).
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RayIsTheGOAT
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I mean he looked pretty good last year. He's not going to take over a game but he's a perfect stretch-big-role player. Plus his leadership and experience in the league is valuable and balances out the young team. He's got a few solid years left for sure, if healthy.
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Of course LeBron makes Kyrie better but LeBron makes everyone better.
The point which somehow you missed was Kyrie proved he was an All Star without Lebron therefore the idea that Lebron makes Kyrie who he is is not supported by anything. Just like Wade and Bosh were All Stars and great players before LeBron arrived. Very simple point.
HuskyHawk
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This is ridiculous. Lebron alone can't do much. He's winning now because he has enough other pieces around him. The early Cleveland Lebron teams were very beatable and didn't win squat.
The Celtics have plenty of depth, and much will depend on how much they get out of Brown and Tatum, and how quickly. But the hole right now is at center. Horford can still play in my opinion, and the league has very few impressive big men at this moment in time. But rebounding is a glaring weakness for this team.
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I am not sure how anyone was supposed to get that from your original post. I am guessing you realized that upon review. No harm. We are just fans on a message board, it isn't that serious. But as you say, I am not very bright.
He was a number one overall pick. Making a couple of All-star games is a almost assumed. I think the Celts are hoping he is more than just an all-star.
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When was the last time a Lebron led team failed to reach the conference finals? Hell, he carried the early team of bums to the Finals early in his career. The Cavs averaged almost 60 wins per year during the end of his first run there. I would say he does what he does regardless of who is around him.
The first bold part is factually incorrect. Early Lebron teams when Lebron was a rookie or a second year player?
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Not including Fultz, 5 of the last 11 #1 picks have made an All Start team and only 1 (Blake Griffin) has made more than Kyrie.
HuskyHawk
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Oh he can carry any team to certain number of wins. He's amazing. But the original post said you can't beat any Lebron team unless you have a player better than Hayward or Irving, and that's hogwash. Those guys are plenty good enough to beat a Lebron led team. If Cleveland loses Love to injury (again) or Thomas doesn't recover from the hip, the Celtics have to be the favorite in the east.
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1. I agree with you 100% on this one. That's Kyrie's defining trait and it is probably the most important one in the sport. There is zero doubt that he elevates his game in the postseason and I also don't think there is much question that it translates better to the postseason than somebody like Isaiah's. Ainge clearly saw this and, even I don't agree with his method of addressing it, I can the logic in this part of the equation.
2. It's a fair question, but the thing is, he didn't know he was going to be traded to a contending team, and to the extent that the Celtics are now a contender is subjective. Considering he already took more shots per minute than just about any player in the NBA, the trade request strikes me as dubious. This doesn't appear to be a case of a great player being limited by his slot in the pecking order. This seems to be Kyrie being a brat. I have no doubts LeBron is a manipulative, self-serving at time. I also have no doubts he loved Kyrie, wanted the best for him, and was willing to assert a tough love that he thought would be better in the long run. Given Kyrie's history of poor transition defense, lackadaisical off-ball defense, and propensity to die on screens, and it's hard not to take LeBron's side here. I don't care how good Kyrie is or how ready he felt for his own team. He's not good enough to disrespect one of the best players ever.
3. You're right that the Celtics have more depth than the Clippers did, but the Clippers big three - Paul, Griffin, and Jordan - was also a healthy deal better than the one the Celtics have now. Perhaps some of my skepticism here is colored by me not being sold on Brown or Tatum, but that's another component of the debate: I think people underestimate how hard it is to grow into a player that really makes a difference in this league. How many different prospects circled through Oklahoma City in the post Harden era without making a dent? And they were playing with a foundation that dwarfs what exists in Boston. Brown and Tatum aren't proven commodities and Boston fans act as if they're made money. Since 2011, you're looking at about a 25% hit rate with top five picks becoming legitimate blue chips, and most of them were more highly regarded than those two. I think Celtics fans - not necessarily you - are too close to this one whereas it's easier for an NBA atheist like myself to take an aerial view here and question the strategy. JMO.
kobe
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How many players under the age of 21 have been the leading scorer on a team that actually makes the playoffs? Lebron James didn't even make the playoffs his first two seasons. What a weird knit to pick.
Waquoit
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That's nit, not knit
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Its crazy to me that people are acting like a pick in the top 5 is better than Kyrie Irving. I'm sorry, but no matter how much of a sure thing a draft pick is, there are a number of reasons that he could turn to dust within 5 years or even 2. You don't even know what pick that is, and you don't even know who will be the best available there
You cannot get what Kyrie Irving is with a draft pick, simply put. You can't have a guy whose first handful of years in the league have been seen. I agree that it stings to give up that pick, but as a Boston transplant who must root for the Celtics now, I'm happy to have a player of the caliber of Kyrie added, and getting rid of the headache of IT and what becomes of him or his salary at the end of this coming season.
You cannot get what Kyrie Irving is with a draft pick, simply put. You can't have a guy whose first handful of years in the league have been seen. I agree that it stings to give up that pick, but as a Boston transplant who must root for the Celtics now, I'm happy to have a player of the caliber of Kyrie added, and getting rid of the headache of IT and what becomes of him or his salary at the end of this coming season.
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....wasn't a nit....it was a response to another post. Context matters.
And you are correct. He did finish 4th in the East his third season, and made the Finals his 4th. But that wasn't the topic of the exchange.
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Not going to disagree. But, name the last team to beat him without having at least one player better than Kyrie or Hayward. Orlando? At that point, most would have taken that version of Dwight Howard or this version of Kyrie. I wouldn't bet against Lebron in the East...I don't care who is on his team.
kobe
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Sorry not used to typing nit since I'm usually typing in ncaa tournament. Thanks though.
Waquoit
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Not bad for a Cincy guy
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....I'll play. First, I said "making"...never said "start" but nice try. Overlooking Simmons hasn't played yet..
Rose (3x, and League MVP), Griffin (5x), Davis (4x), Wall (4x), Kyrie (4x) have all been All-Stars
Wiggins and Towns are still young (but who knows). I am not betting against them making several
Bennett was only a number 1 because the Cavs had the pick (but still)
or
How many of the last 30 number 1 picks have been All-stars?? Who cares? lol
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Where did I say "start"?
Thank you for confirming exactly what I said in my post. Useful.
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TWolves could be good, mainly due to Teague & Butler. Wiggins is awful. One dimensional scorer, lousy 3Pt shooter, terrible defender. They shouldn't pay him the extension.
Who is saying that a pick in the top 5 is better than Kyrie? No one. I agree with the rest of what you wrote but let's not start erecting strawmen either. Everyone is simply saying that right now it looks like the outcome of that nets pick may swing whether or not this trade is viewed as a success in Cleveland down the road and that right now it looks like that was steep price to pay.
BUConn10
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Don't even bother. People who scan bbref by every advanced metric to find where the player they are trying to defend looks best are fools.
If RPM tells to story of an NBA player's worth in game 7 of the ECF then NBA GM's would be software algorithms. Anyone that thinks the Celtics downgraded talent for the upcoming season is a fool who doesn't understand the importance of a player's role in the NBA. Guys like Crowder look good on advanced metrics because they aren't put in a role to do so based on the coach and surrounding talent. If you put someone else in his role, say the two new talented wings the Celtics are developing, their numbers will be fluctuated accordingly as well, it isn't some kind of profound statement on worth like Q is arguing, he's a dumb dumb.
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The C's top 3 options are Kyrie, Hayward, and Horford though? Not sure why you're writing as if Tatum/Jaylen are the top options for this team.
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Sure Kyrie doesn't guard Steph well, but who does? Nobody is killing Lebron for not being able to guard Durant. Who on GSW (or the Celts for that matter) have been able to guard Kyrie the last couple of years?
HuskyHawk
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Twice to Boston (unless you think Pierce was better than Irving is now), Detroit, Dallas (was Dirk better than Hayward or Irving at that point of his career?), Was an aging Tim Duncan or Tony Parker better back in 2014?
Honestly, I'd argue that what trips up Lebron lead teams, and any teams, are strong deep talented teams with multiple scorers. That's what the Warriors have, what Boston had in those two trips and what the Spurs have had too. In any event, I think those teams are pretty closely matched now, but we don't know how any of the pieces will actually mesh. It's too soon to tell. Injuries could easily give Cleveland or Boston the edge over the other.
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