OT: Celtics / Cavs megadeal

[kobe]

and how many playoff games did he win??

How many players under the age of 21 have been the leading scorer on a team that actually makes the playoffs? Lebron James didn't even make the playoffs his first two seasons. What a weird knit to pick.

 

[Waquoit]

What a weird knit to pick.

That's nit, not knit

 

[Kembacity]

Its crazy to me that people are acting like a pick in the top 5 is better than Kyrie Irving. I'm sorry, but no matter how much of a sure thing a draft pick is, there are a number of reasons that he could turn to dust within 5 years or even 2. You don't even know what pick that is, and you don't even know who will be the best available there

You cannot get what Kyrie Irving is with a draft pick, simply put. You can't have a guy whose first handful of years in the league have been seen. I agree that it stings to give up that pick, but as a Boston transplant who must root for the Celtics now, I'm happy to have a player of the caliber of Kyrie added, and getting rid of the headache of IT and what becomes of him or his salary at the end of this coming season.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

How many players under the age of 21 have been the leading scorer on a team that actually makes the playoffs? Lebron James didn't even make the playoffs his first two seasons. What a weird knit to pick.

....wasn't a nit....it was a response to another post. Context matters.

And you are correct. He did finish 4th in the East his third season, and made the Finals his 4th. But that wasn't the topic of the exchange.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Oh he can carry any team to certain number of wins. He's amazing. But the original post said you can't beat any Lebron team unless you have a player better than Hayward or Irving, and that's hogwash. Those guys are plenty good enough to beat a Lebron led team. If Cleveland loses Love to injury (again) or Thomas doesn't recover from the hip, the Celtics have to be the favorite in the east.

Not going to disagree. But, name the last team to beat him without having at least one player better than Kyrie or Hayward. Orlando? At that point, most would have taken that version of Dwight Howard or this version of Kyrie. I wouldn't bet against Lebron in the East...I don't care who is on his team.

 

[kobe]

That's nit, not knit

Sorry not used to typing nit since I'm usually typing in ncaa tournament. Thanks though.

 

[Waquoit]

Sorry not used to typing nit since I'm usually typing in ncaa tournament. Thanks though.

Not bad for a Cincy guy

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Not including Fultz, 5 of the last 11 #1 picks have made an All Start team and only 1 (Blake Griffin) has made more than Kyrie.

....I'll play. First, I said "making"...never said "start" but nice try. Overlooking Simmons hasn't played yet..

Rose (3x, and League MVP), Griffin (5x), Davis (4x), Wall (4x), Kyrie (4x) have all been All-Stars
Wiggins and Towns are still young (but who knows). I am not betting against them making several
Bennett was only a number 1 because the Cavs had the pick (but still)
or

How many of the last 30 number 1 picks have been All-stars?? Who cares? lol

 

[Jerry1714]

....I'll play. First, I said "making"...never said "start" but nice try. Overlooking Simmons hasn't played yet..

Rose (3x, and League MVP), Griffin (5x), Davis (4x), Wall (4x), Kyrie (4x) have all been All-Stars
Wiggins and Towns are still young (but who knows). I am not betting against them making several
Bennett was only a number 1 because the Cavs had the pick (but still)
or

How many of the last 30 number 1 picks have been All-stars?? Who cares? lol

Where did I say "start"?

Thank you for confirming exactly what I said in my post. Useful.

 

[JSM1970]

TWolves could be good, mainly due to Teague & Butler. Wiggins is awful. One dimensional scorer, lousy 3Pt shooter, terrible defender. They shouldn't pay him the extension.

....I'll play. First, I said "making"...never said "start" but nice try. Overlooking Simmons hasn't played yet..

Rose (3x, and League MVP), Griffin (5x), Davis (4x), Wall (4x), Kyrie (4x) have all been All-Stars
Wiggins and Towns are still young (but who knows). I am not betting against them making several
Bennett was only a number 1 because the Cavs had the pick (but still)
or

How many of the last 30 number 1 picks have been All-stars?? Who cares? lol

 

[PAHusky]

Its crazy to me that people are acting like a pick in the top 5 is better than Kyrie Irving. I'm sorry, but no matter how much of a sure thing a draft pick is, there are a number of reasons that he could turn to dust within 5 years or even 2. You don't even know what pick that is, and you don't even know who will be the best available there

You cannot get what Kyrie Irving is with a draft pick, simply put. You can't have a guy whose first handful of years in the league have been seen. I agree that it stings to give up that pick, but as a Boston transplant who must root for the Celtics now, I'm happy to have a player of the caliber of Kyrie added, and getting rid of the headache of IT and what becomes of him or his salary at the end of this coming season.

Who is saying that a pick in the top 5 is better than Kyrie? No one. I agree with the rest of what you wrote but let's not start erecting strawmen either. Everyone is simply saying that right now it looks like the outcome of that nets pick may swing whether or not this trade is viewed as a success in Cleveland down the road and that right now it looks like that was steep price to pay.

 

[BUConn10]

Schooled me? Ha you have been made to look like a fool and Chad Ford wannabe. Tell me the player who will make 4 All Star games in his first 6 years in this draft, still waiting for this from you. Or has Chad Ford not responded to your email yet so you can tell me the answer?

Crowder's PER was 137th, tied with Bobby Portis. Just stop, you are embarrassing yourself.

Don't even bother. People who scan bbref by every advanced metric to find where the player they are trying to defend looks best are fools.

If RPM tells to story of an NBA player's worth in game 7 of the ECF then NBA GM's would be software algorithms. Anyone that thinks the Celtics downgraded talent for the upcoming season is a fool who doesn't understand the importance of a player's role in the NBA. Guys like Crowder look good on advanced metrics because they aren't put in a role to do so based on the coach and surrounding talent. If you put someone else in his role, say the two new talented wings the Celtics are developing, their numbers will be fluctuated accordingly as well, it isn't some kind of profound statement on worth like Q is arguing, he's a dumb dumb.

 

[NielsisGood]

So? Like I said, I don't wanna be depending on rookies and 2nd year players when playoff time comes. On paper, I'll take Wall/Beal/Porter over the Cs top 3 options.

The C's top 3 options are Kyrie, Hayward, and Horford though? Not sure why you're writing as if Tatum/Jaylen are the top options for this team.

 

[NielsisGood]

If I have to hide a player, does it matter?

Why would Steph Curry want to run PnR against IT? In an iso he gets IT on an island. In PnR he winds up with a larger defender. Sure, his role partner gets IT, but why bother.

Did you watch any of the games in Finals last year? Kyrie doesn't guard Curry well either. He doesn't guard anyone well. So his height advantage over IT ain't worth a bag of .

Sure Kyrie doesn't guard Steph well, but who does? Nobody is killing Lebron for not being able to guard Durant. Who on GSW (or the Celts for that matter) have been able to guard Kyrie the last couple of years?

 

[HuskyHawk]

Not going to disagree. But, name the last team to beat him without having at least one player better than Kyrie or Hayward. Orlando? At that point, most would have taken that version of Dwight Howard or this version of Kyrie. I wouldn't bet against Lebron in the East...I don't care who is on his team.

Twice to Boston (unless you think Pierce was better than Irving is now), Detroit, Dallas (was Dirk better than Hayward or Irving at that point of his career?), Was an aging Tim Duncan or Tony Parker better back in 2014?

Honestly, I'd argue that what trips up Lebron lead teams, and any teams, are strong deep talented teams with multiple scorers. That's what the Warriors have, what Boston had in those two trips and what the Spurs have had too. In any event, I think those teams are pretty closely matched now, but we don't know how any of the pieces will actually mesh. It's too soon to tell. Injuries could easily give Cleveland or Boston the edge over the other.

 

[Kembacity]

Who is saying that a pick in the top 5 is better than Kyrie? No one. I agree with the rest of what you wrote but let's not start erecting strawmen either. Everyone is simply saying that right now it looks like the outcome of that nets pick may swing whether or not this trade is viewed as a success in Cleveland down the road and that right now it looks like that was steep price to pay.

Many people are acting like Kyrie isn't a great player in the NBA or could easily be trumped by who is selected with that draft pick, and my point is just that there are so many random variables involved in a draft pick blossoming into a 25 year old Allstar. Beyond their health and development turning out well for you, you also have to hope you keep him and he doesnt walk to the Lakers or whoever else is buzzy when their rookie contract is up.

I'm fine with the trade being considered close to a win-win, but can't take people saying Boston got fleeced. It isn't easy to get a player like Kyrie in a trade

 

[Walker11]

You have to give Ainge credit for trusting their evaluation and going all in. He really doesn't care about consensus. He is clearly higher on Kyrie than most in media. For whatever reason, and I have some ideas, it seems that NBA staff and players think more highly of Irving than media. More daring than this is valuing Tatum and Brown over the pick. We know he sees Tatum differently than most organizations already because of the Fultz trade. His valuation of Brown is more interesting to me. Either Ainge is way off, or Brown and Tatum are going to be an unparalleled wing combination for years to come.

 

[Walker11]

Many people are acting like Kyrie isn't a great player in the NBA or could easily be trumped by who is selected with that draft pick, and my point is just that there are so many random variables involved in a draft pick blossoming into a 25 year old Allstar. Beyond their health and development turning out well for you, you also have to hope you keep him and he doesnt walk to the Lakers or whoever else is buzzy when their rookie contract is up.

I'm fine with the trade being considered close to a win-win, but can't take people saying Boston got fleeced. It isn't easy to get a player like Kyrie in a trade

Some people still think Kyrie is more of an empty stat Marbury type who can't be the man on a contender. If that evaluation is correct, a top 5 pick may be more valuable.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Some people still think Kyrie is more of an empty stat Marbury type who can't be the man on a contender. If that evaluation is correct, a top 5 pick may be more valuable.

I am in that camp. I don't think there is a next level to Kyrie. I think he is who he is. I like Hayward and think the Celts could still be pretty good this year, but the Celts gave up a lot to get a mediocre defender who takes a ton of shots and doesn't create for his teammates. Ainge must think that Kyrie has a next level. We will find out soon enough.

Obviously, Cleveland thinks IT's hip is worth the risk. I also think Crowder will help get Lebron's minutes down, which needs to happen immediately. I think Zizic also has potential, and a Top 5 pick is a Top 5 pick. Cleveland is looking to a post-Lebron future, and this is a good first step.

 

[NielsisGood]

This is exactly why I disagree. Their timeline isn't the next 2 years. It's years 3-4 from now. When the Warriors are getting olders and the role players more expensive and and not contributing as much.

Danny made this move basically going all in.

Also, Kyrie wanted to be the man. he's still going to be in Hayward's shadow here.

GH is a better player, who came here because of his coach, and hasn't been the enemy like Kyrie has been. He's a likeable guy who left for good reasons and didn't mope his way out of town like Kyrie did.

If Kyrie wants to be the man, he's not gonna be that in Boston. He'll still be #2.

.....LOL

 

[the Q]

.....LOL

Hayward is clearly the better player and will be Bostons most popular player since Pierce.

 

[NielsisGood]

Hayward is clearly the better player and will be Bostons most popular player since Pierce.

What a delusional hill to die on.

 

[auror]

You have to give Ainge credit for trusting their evaluation and going all in. He really doesn't care about consensus. He is clearly higher on Kyrie than most in media. For whatever reason, and I have some ideas, it seems that NBA staff and players think more highly of Irving than media. More daring than this is valuing Tatum and Brown over the pick. We know he sees Tatum differently than most organizations already because of the Fultz trade. His valuation of Brown is more interesting to me. Either Ainge is way off, or Brown and Tatum are going to be an unparalleled wing combination for years to come.

Tatum is obvious, they valued him at #1 overall this year and Nets pick is likely to be worse than #1 overall.

Brown is more interesting. If I had to guess, I'd say part of it is timeline and part is position. The Celtics have a window now stretching for 3-5 more years, so they will ideally need someone capable of contributing as at least a rotation player for as much of that window as possible on a cheap cost-controlled contract. Brown should have the ability to switch PnRs, guard all the wing positions, and make enough 3s on the other end to keep the defense spaced, which is probably the most important role player in the current NBA. With Crowder in the trade, that role will fall more fully onto Brown (and maybe Ojeleye). That seems to be his floor, so he could obviously develop into much more. You might be able to do better than that with the BRK pick, but keeping Brown is the safer option.

 

[the Q]

What a delusional hill to die on.

There's more to the game than scoring. It's a given Hayward is the better player.

It's not even a debate

 

[MadDogRevival]

Very interesting to see the Boston fans' takes on this trade. Very curious to see how it turns out.