OT: Celtics / Cavs megadeal

[NielsisGood]

Where's the titles for Dantoni suns or his rockets?

Now they added some premium defensive talent they are a real contender.

Things like rebounding and defense matter, otherwise Portland would also be contenders.

Cavs have been mediocre-bad offensively and have won a title and made the finals the last 3 years. This isn't the mid 90's, the game is offensively oriented.

 

[FartMan69]

Worst professional league in America...including MLS. It just doesn't function properly. So many things I'd change.

As for Kyrie, I think he is an upgrade over Thomas. It's the pick I care about. Here is where I think the Celtics are rolling the dice: He's a top 10'offensive talent who plays terrible D. I don't think his defense sucks because he's incapable, it's a question of effort. Is he willing to put forth that effort, rest a few more minutes a game and become an elite player. He can if he wants to.

The MLS is literally a ponzi scheme. I wouldn't go that far.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Twice to Boston (unless you think Pierce was better than Irving is now), Detroit, Dallas (was Dirk better than Hayward or Irving at that point of his career?), Was an aging Tim Duncan or Tony Parker better back in 2014?

Honestly, I'd argue that what trips up Lebron lead teams, and any teams, are strong deep talented teams with multiple scorers. That's what the Warriors have, what Boston had in those two trips and what the Spurs have had too. In any event, I think those teams are pretty closely matched now, but we don't know how any of the pieces will actually mesh. It's too soon to tell. Injuries could easily give Cleveland or Boston the edge over the other.

Pierce, KG, and Ray. Yes, Dirk was better at that point. If you have to ask about Timm Duncan, there is no point in us talking.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Sure Kyrie doesn't guard Steph well, but who does? Nobody is killing Lebron for not being able to guard Durant. Who on GSW (or the Celts for that matter) have been able to guard Kyrie the last couple of years?

Context.....

 

[MadDogRevival]

Maybe I'm just a disillusioned Knick fan though.

Maybe you're just a knick fan.

 

[nomar]

I've already schooled you but if you wanna keep going.

Crowder had the best RPM of any one in the deal.

The difference from IT to Kyrie was small....crowder alone makes it an overpay. The premium pick, the crown jewel of the trade with Brooklyn, makes it suicidal.

Crowder was #20 in ROM.

#21: Amir Johnson.

Tells you all you need to know about RPM.

 

[the Q]

Crowder was #20 in ROM.

#21: Amir Johnson.

Tells you all you need to know about RPM.

Or, maybe it tells you how the Celtics won over 50 games without a lot of "star power."

I feel like I'm talking baseball with fans from 1999.

 

[FartMan69]

Or, maybe it tells you how the Celtics won over 50 games without a lot of "star power."

I feel like I'm talking baseball with fans from 1999.

You haven't included any actual substance outside of opinion articles and cherry picked basketball ref stats so don't be shocked no one takes you serious.

 

[HuskyHawk]

So many things I'd change. I'm interested in hearing your changes. I like college and pro hoop but I know there are a lot of college bball fans that can't stomach pro hoop. How would you make it better?

I'd call travels. I'd end the continuation rule. There are few things more silly than watching some guy attack the basket, tuck the ball, take a full three steps, hit a stationary defender in the shoulder, make a layup and be awarded a free throw. Later, a big guy catches the ball, dribbles once, slides a plant shoe and inch and it's a travel. What?!

I'd probably call way more offensive fouls. I'd think about whether the 3 point line really works. I'd consider shrinking the rim slightly. Mostly I'd make alterations that decrease the value of individual players and increase the value of strong, coordinated team play. The Warriors already shifted the league in that direction.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Pierce, KG, and Ray. Yes, Dirk was better at that point. If you have to ask about Timm Duncan, there is no point in us talking.

So Pierce was a significant upgrade on Gordon Hayward? I think they are pretty comparable. KG was a difference maker on both ends, and that is key. Better than the current Horford certainly. Ray was an aging star at that point, who was not as good as the current age Kyrie, not close really. All in all, I think these 3 are pretty close to those 3. And if either of the young forwards steps up, this team could easily be better than those teams. But they need a rebounder.

 

[the Q]

You haven't included any actual substance outside of opinion articles and cherry picked basketball ref stats so don't be shocked no one takes you serious.

As compared to the people providing nothing stamping their feet claiming Kyrie is a top 10 player despite zero evidence to assert that?

No one else has provided ANYTHING of substance. At all.

 

[the Q]

I'd call travels. I'd end the continuation rule. There are few things more silly than watching some guy attack the basket, tuck the ball, take a full three steps, hit a stationary defender in the shoulder, make a layup and be awarded a free throw. Later, a big guy catches the ball, dribbles once, slides a plant shoe and inch and it's a travel. What?!

I'd probably call way more offensive fouls. I'd think about whether the 3 point line really works. I'd consider shrinking the rim slightly. Mostly I'd make alterations that decrease the value of individual players and increase the value of strong, coordinated team play. The Warriors already shifted the league in that direction.

Please take over the NBA immediately. Throw a damn coup if you have to.

 

[Jerry1714]

As compared to the people providing nothing stamping their feet claiming Kyrie is a top 10 player despite zero evidence to assert that?

No one else has provided ANYTHING of substance. At all.

Man you are either delusional, blind, or just willfully ignorant. People have provided you countless pieces of stats, both advanced and standard, and you just ignore it. It is kind of like your draft proclamations where you provide zero facts, analysis or anything other than stomppimg your feet and yelling "Do not mess with me on the draft!".

Still waiting on you to tell me who that draft pick who is going to be an 4 times all star in their first 6 years..........

You continually cite RPM like its some end all be all stat. Metta World Peace was the #1 player in the league per RPM in 2015-16, Elton Brand was 2nd, and LeBron was 30th. This is why no one takes your opinion seriously.

 

[the Q]

Man you are either delusional, blind, or just willfully ignorant. People have provided you countless pieces of stats, both advanced and standard, and you just ignore it. It is kind of like your draft proclamations where you provide zero facts, analysis or anything other than stomppimg your feet and yelling "Do not mess with me on the draft!".

Still waiting on you to tell me who that draft pick who is going to be an 4 times all star in their first 6 years.....

You continually cite RPM like its some end all be all stat. Metta World Peace was the #1 player in the league per RPM in 2015-16, Elton Brand was 2nd, and LeBron was 30th. This is why no one takes your opinion seriously.

1) no, they really haven't.

2) the fact that you think that all-star game appearances is somehow a good indicator compared to things like their actual on the court performance, says everything one needs to know about your basketball knowledge.

3) Idk what you're talking about. the top 5 guys in 2015-2016 were Lebron, Draymond, Paul, Curry, Leonard.
NBA Real Plus-Minus - National Basketball Association - ESPN

 

[Jerry1714]

1) no, they really haven't.

2) the fact that you think that all-star game appearances is somehow a good indicator compared to things like their actual on the court performance, says everything one needs to know about your basketball knowledge.

3) Idk what you're talking about. the top 5 guys in 2015-2016 were Lebron, Draymond, Paul, Curry, Leonard.
NBA Real Plus-Minus - National Basketball Association - ESPN

1. Yes they have, again you are either delusional, blind, or just willfully ignorant.

2. I listed a number of accomplishments, all star appearances was just an example. But per usual this is your response, thanks for proving my point on how you actually know nothing and have zero to say other than, "Do not mess with me" or "you know nothing". It is comical how sad and pathetic you are.

3. Yea, I messed this up, my browser populated them wrong. See how easy it is to admit you made a mistake?

 

[the Q]

1. Yes they have, again you are either delusional, blind, or just willfully ignorant.

2. I listed a number of accomplishments, all star appearances was just an example. But per usual this is your response, thanks for proving my point on how you actually know nothing and have zero to say other than, "Do not mess with me" or "you know nothing". It is comical how sad and pathetic you are.

3. Yea, I messed this up, my browser populated them wrong. See how easy it is to admit you made a mistake?

i already showed you the metrics how Irving isn't nearly what you're trying to prop him up as.

Jimmy Butler didn't make that many AS gamse....yet he's clearly a better player.

Same with Hayward.

All star games, that's literally all anyone has added. Saying they don't like overwhelming evidence provided is not actually adding anything to the convo.

they say, Kyrie can dribble, he's younger, they can resign him (which still can't be a part of evaluating the deal cause it's outside the scope of his current control). That's not really adding anything to the convo.

 

[Jerry1714]

i already showed you the metrics how Irving isn't nearly what you're trying to prop him up as.

Jimmy Butler didn't make that many AS gamse....yet he's clearly a better player.

Same with Hayward.

All star games, that's literally all anyone has added. Saying they don't like overwhelming evidence provided is not actually adding anything to the convo.

they say, Kyrie can dribble, he's younger, they can resign him (which still can't be a part of evaluating the deal cause it's outside the scope of his current control). That's not really adding anything to the convo.

Wow, you really do not get it. There is no point in going back and forth with you, carry on wannabe.

 

[Excalibur]

So? Like I said, I don't wanna be depending on rookies and 2nd year players when playoff time comes. On paper, I'll take Wall/Beal/Porter over the Cs top 3 options.

Irving > Wall (Wall's inability to shoot is a big issue for him)
Hayward > Beal
Porter > Horford

So, in the aggregate, no.

 

[Walker11]

Irving > Wall (Wall's inability to shoot is a big issue for him)
Hayward > Beal
Porter > Horford

So, in the aggregate, no.

I'm not so sure that any of these are true and they are definitely debatable.

 

[the Q]

Wow, you really do not get it. There is no point in going back and forth with you, carry on wannabe.

don't project yourself onto me.

You're the one who isn't getting it.

Hence this post I quoted.

 

[intlzncster]

i already showed you the metrics how Irving isn't nearly what you're trying to prop him up as.

Jimmy Butler didn't make that many AS gamse....yet he's clearly a better player.

Same with Hayward.

All star games, that's literally all anyone has added. Saying they don't like overwhelming evidence provided is not actually adding anything to the convo.

they say, Kyrie can dribble, he's younger, they can resign him (which still can't be a part of evaluating the deal cause it's outside the scope of his current control). That's not really adding anything to the convo.

I added some Kyrie clutch stats. Might be the most clutch player in the league.

 

[auror]

As compared to the people providing nothing stamping their feet claiming Kyrie is a top 10 player despite zero evidence to assert that?

No one else has provided ANYTHING of substance. At all.

This is a very fair look at Irving.

 

[QDOG5]

I'd call travels. I'd end the continuation rule. There are few things more silly than watching some guy attack the basket, tuck the ball, take a full three steps, hit a stationary defender in the shoulder, make a layup and be awarded a free throw. Later, a big guy catches the ball, dribbles once, slides a plant shoe and inch and it's a travel. What?!

I'd probably call way more offensive fouls. I'd think about whether the 3 point line really works. I'd consider shrinking the rim slightly. Mostly I'd make alterations that decrease the value of individual players and increase the value of strong, coordinated team play. The Warriors already shifted the league in that direction.

I agree with you on the traveling not be called. They should remove the violation for carrying the ball since it is NEVER called. It's a league about offense so I don't think more charges are going to be called. I wouldn't mess with the rim. I would eliminate all preseason games(in all pro sports). This would allow for less back to backs and players sitting out games. I would eliminate 2 time outs a half. The remaining ones can be incrementally longer to appease advertisers. I like the moving the ball to half court in end of game situations but... there shouldn't be a TO and huddle. The team should go to half court and run a play they worked on in practice. As AI said practice? practice?

 

[nomar]

Or, maybe it tells you how the Celtics won over 50 games without a lot of "star power."

I feel like I'm talking baseball with fans from 1999.

Give me a break. None of us are luddites. We're all facile with advanced stats. Do you understand their limitations? When you're relying on a stat that ranks Amir Johnson 21st, you should question it. Don't be a robot.

Stats also don't tell you whether a guy will be a malcontent and clubhouse cancer because the team signed the guy he was whining about all season.

 

[superjohn]

Except he's not a top 10 player.

They didn't get a Cousins, or a Brow, or a Towns or even a Hayward.

They get a small upgrade on IT for the Price of a top 15 player.

You think Gordon Hayward is better than Kyrie Irving, good lord.

 

[the Q]

This is a very fair look at Irving.

That was damn good.

Totally fair.

but if he can't improve his D, it limits how much better he can get.

 

[scdono]

Here's my opinion on the eye test of Kyrie, clutch, tremendous scorer and winner. Isaiah is great but he's vertically and defensively challenge. That won't change. Kyrie can choose to improve his defense. This trade is tremendous for celtics fans. Some don't know it yet. I see the stat comparisons between both. Isaiah gave his heart in all he does. However, he's no Kyrie. The Celtics ar closer to being the favorites coming out of the east. Young guy development and rebounding will be the key.

Exciting year ahead!

 

[NielsisGood]

I'm not so sure that any of these are true and they are definitely debatable.

At the very least, I'm not sure how you'd contend Beal being better than Hayward. GH probably has just as much upward projection given he's coming from Utah who was either the 1st or 2nd slowest pace team last year.

 

[Danzz]

The Celtics came out on top in this trade. They got the best player. Everything after that is speculation.

 

[BUConn10]

Or, maybe it tells you how the Celtics won over 50 games without a lot of "star power."

I feel like I'm talking baseball with fans from 1999.

Ooooooooooooooor... it's almost like the Celtics' system and coaching bring about favorable advanced stats for their role players and hustle guys. Please end this.