OT: Celtics / Cavs megadeal

[Walker11]

There's more to the game than scoring. It's a given Hayward is the better player.

It's not even a debate

This is another moment of JSMesque delusion. Maybe you are right, but you are definitely in the minority with this opinion so you can't say there is no debate.

 

[Mr. French]

By the way, is anyone else not seeing that thread on the front page? I haven't seen it since yesterday, in fact I started a thread that merged with a bunch of others and i haven't seen it since -- Except for others linking to it as here.

 

[NielsisGood]

There's more to the game than scoring. It's a given Hayward is the better player.

It's not even a debate

You literally win the game by having more points than the other team. It's a given that Hayward is better defensively than Kyrie (although it's not like Hayward is Kawhi or anything), but that difference doesn't make up for how much better Kyrie is in every aspect on the offensive end.


I now feel stupid for even taking the bait.

 

[champs99and04]

Some people still think Kyrie is more of an empty stat Marbury type who can't be the man on a contender. If that evaluation is correct, a top 5 pick may be more valuable.

This is why Kyrie is so fascinating. Personally, I don't understand how anybody in either camp - especially fans - can be adamant enough about where he ranks as to dismiss a dissenting opinion. Typically I tend to rank NBA players by tiers, with tier one being a bonafide franchise talent, tier two being all-star caliber, and tier three being something below that. Gun to my head I have Kyrie in tier two, but he sure as hell looks like a tier one talent when he gets rolling on the big stage. Conversely, I'm not sold at all that he's better than Mike Conley or even Kemba.

What's more fascinating is that, to a lesser extent, all of those things could be said about Isaiah Thomas. Most of the time, it's easy to spot opinions on NBA players that are wrong and uninformed (i.e. JSM and Draymond Green), but with these two, I can't even really shout down the extremists. In a lot of ways that re-enforces your point that the NBA is the most compelling league going.

 

[QDOG5]

There is no debating that there is some serious debating going on in this thread. FWIW I think it was a pretty good deal for both teams. And both teams might not be done dealing. If IT is healthy do the Cavs need DRose? And the Celts have 11 new players so if they make another deal it wouldn't be surprising.

 

[the Q]

You literally win the game by having more points than the other team. It's a given that Hayward is better defensively than Kyrie (although it's not like Hayward is Kawhi or anything), but that difference doesn't make up for how much better Kyrie is in every aspect on the offensive end.


I now feel stupid for even taking the bait.

Metrics say you're flat out wrong.

 

[the Q]

This is why Kyrie is so fascinating. Personally, I don't understand how anybody in either camp - especially fans - can be adamant enough about where he ranks as to dismiss a dissenting opinion. Typically I tend to rank NBA players by tiers, with tier one being a bonafide franchise talent, tier two being all-star caliber, and tier three being something below that. Gun to my head I have Kyrie in tier two, but he sure as hell looks like a tier one talent when he gets rolling on the big stage. Conversely, I'm not sold at all that he's better than Mike Conley or even Kemba.

What's more fascinating is that, to a lesser extent, all of those things could be said about Isaiah Thomas. Most of the time, it's easy to spot opinions on NBA players that are wrong and uninformed (i.e. JSM and Draymond Green), but with these two, I can't even really shout down the extremists. In a lot of ways that re-enforces your point that the NBA is the most compelling league going.

Do The Celtics Have Enough Star Power To Win a Title? Not Yet.

He's basically the same tier as Conley.

That's reality.

 

[husky429]

By the way, is anyone else not seeing that thread on the front page? I haven't seen it since yesterday, in fact I started a thread that merged with a bunch of others and i haven't seen it since -- Except for others linking to it as here.

I don't see it either. It's why o started one the other day too

 

[BUConn10]

There's more to the game than scoring. It's a given Hayward is the better player.

It's not even a debate

I love how you treat the NBA like it's college basketball.

 

[BUConn10]

Do The Celtics Have Enough Star Power To Win a Title? Not Yet.

He's basically the same tier as Conley.

That's reality.

Wow, you have really pushed yourself off the deep end here.

 

[the Q]

I love how you treat the NBA like it's college basketball.

Where's the titles for Dantoni suns or his rockets?

Now they added some premium defensive talent they are a real contender.

Things like rebounding and defense matter, otherwise Portland would also be contenders.

 

[the Q]

Wow, you have really pushed yourself off the deep end here.

No. I'm living in reality. And I have evidence. There's no evidence he's actually an elite star like many of you are saying.

 

[BUConn10]

No. I'm living in reality. And I have evidence. There's no evidence he's actually an elite star like many of you are saying.

Do you actually watch the NBA or just think you know basketball because of your calculator? I reference you to the 2016 NBA Finals Game 7. That's what Kyrie can do, not IT, what IT would have done was displayed in the ECF this year where he was essentially non-existant. This trade is a win both talent wise and financial wise, it's really not that hard to see, you can keep acting upset that a top 15 player joined the Celtics for Jae Crowder but no one is buying your secret stuff.

 

[the Q]

Do you actually watch the NBA or just think you know basketball because of your calculator? I reference you to the 2016 NBA Finals Game 7. That's what Kyrie can do, not IT, what IT would have done was displayed in the ECF this year where he was essentially non-existant. This trade is a win both talent wise and financial wise, it's really not that hard to see, you can keep acting upset that a top 15 player joined the Celtics for Jae Crowder but no one is buying your secret stuff.

Except he's not a top 10 player.

They didn't get a Cousins, or a Brow, or a Towns or even a Hayward.

They get a small upgrade on IT for the Price of a top 15 player.

 

[Mr. French]

I don't love Kyrie as much as his skill set would seem to indicate, but I definitely think it was an upgrade for Boston in addition to the other factors (age, contracts, marketing, draft being uncertain) which all make the trade a good idea for Boston.

I think both organizations can look at it positively, with some risk. That's a good thing especially considering the magnitude of players and assets involved.

This probably won't be a fleecing either way, but every trade has that possibility.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

In a lot of ways that re-enforces your point that the NBA is the most compelling league going.

The NBA is the most compelling league?

The last 3 finals have been played by the same two teams and going into the upcoming season, it would be shocking if GSW didn't make it and a 50/50 shot Cleveland won't.

I agree that the arguments for player v player are somewhat compelling as their advance metrics aren't as buttoned up as say MLB, but as far as a compelling league goes? 27 teams go into the season knowing they basically have no shot whatsoever.

Maybe I'm just a disillusioned Knick fan though.

 

[HuskyHawk]

The NBA is the most compelling league?

The last 3 finals have been played by the same two teams and going into the upcoming season, it would be shocking if GSW didn't make it and a 50/50 shot Cleveland won't.

I agree that the arguments for player v player are somewhat compelling as their advance metrics aren't as buttoned up as say MLB, but as far as a compelling league goes? 27 teams go into the season knowing they basically have no shot whatsoever.

Maybe I'm just a disillusioned Knick fan though.

Worst professional league in America...including MLS. It just doesn't function properly. So many things I'd change.

As for Kyrie, I think he is an upgrade over Thomas. It's the pick I care about. Here is where I think the Celtics are rolling the dice: He's a top 10'offensive talent who plays terrible D. I don't think his defense sucks because he's incapable, it's a question of effort. Is he willing to put forth that effort, rest a few more minutes a game and become an elite player. He can if he wants to.

 

[QDOG5]

Worst professional league in America...including MLS. It just doesn't function properly.

As for Kyrie, I think he is an upgrade over Thomas. It's the pick I care about. Here is where I think the Celtics are rolling the dice: He's a top 10'offensive talent who plays terrible D. I don't think his defense sucks because he's incapable, it's a question of effort. Is he willing to put forth that effort, rest a few more minutes a game and become an elite player. He can if he wants to.

So many things I'd change. I'm interested in hearing your changes. I like college and pro hoop but I know there are a lot of college bball fans that can't stomach pro hoop. How would you make it better?

 

[Walker11]

Worst professional league in America...including MLS. It just doesn't function properly. So many things I'd change.

As for Kyrie, I think he is an upgrade over Thomas. It's the pick I care about. Here is where I think the Celtics are rolling the dice: He's a top 10'offensive talent who plays terrible D. I don't think his defense sucks because he's incapable, it's a question of effort. Is he willing to put forth that effort, rest a few more minutes a game and become an elite player. He can if he wants to.

The NBA is more popular than ever and has turned into year round entertainment due to the new era of free agency and blockbuster trades. Add the draft and the newfound popularity of summer league and the dead period is now what, a month? And this boon is occurring during a period where the competitive imbalance is at an all-time high, due to a huge F-up in not smoothing out the cap jump. That is a real issue no doubt but should be remedied soon - it sucks having to wait out the Dubs but the league is still killing it.

This is not referring to you, but not a ton of things more annoying than some dude just getting into advanced analytics.

 

[NielsisGood]

Metrics say you're flat out wrong.

Not really, but even if that were the case basketball metrics aren't nearly as reliable as baseball metrics anyways.

 

[NielsisGood]

Where's the titles for Dantoni suns or his rockets?

Now they added some premium defensive talent they are a real contender.

Things like rebounding and defense matter, otherwise Portland would also be contenders.

Cavs have been mediocre-bad offensively and have won a title and made the finals the last 3 years. This isn't the mid 90's, the game is offensively oriented.

 

[FartMan69]

Worst professional league in America...including MLS. It just doesn't function properly. So many things I'd change.

As for Kyrie, I think he is an upgrade over Thomas. It's the pick I care about. Here is where I think the Celtics are rolling the dice: He's a top 10'offensive talent who plays terrible D. I don't think his defense sucks because he's incapable, it's a question of effort. Is he willing to put forth that effort, rest a few more minutes a game and become an elite player. He can if he wants to.

The MLS is literally a ponzi scheme. I wouldn't go that far.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Twice to Boston (unless you think Pierce was better than Irving is now), Detroit, Dallas (was Dirk better than Hayward or Irving at that point of his career?), Was an aging Tim Duncan or Tony Parker better back in 2014?

Honestly, I'd argue that what trips up Lebron lead teams, and any teams, are strong deep talented teams with multiple scorers. That's what the Warriors have, what Boston had in those two trips and what the Spurs have had too. In any event, I think those teams are pretty closely matched now, but we don't know how any of the pieces will actually mesh. It's too soon to tell. Injuries could easily give Cleveland or Boston the edge over the other.

Pierce, KG, and Ray. Yes, Dirk was better at that point. If you have to ask about Timm Duncan, there is no point in us talking.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Sure Kyrie doesn't guard Steph well, but who does? Nobody is killing Lebron for not being able to guard Durant. Who on GSW (or the Celts for that matter) have been able to guard Kyrie the last couple of years?

Context.....

 

[MadDogRevival]

Maybe I'm just a disillusioned Knick fan though.

Maybe you're just a knick fan.