OT: Celtics / Cavs megadeal

[nomar]

Jae Crowder's mom passed away from cancer the day the trade was announced. Awful.

Really wish I hadn't used the phrase "clubhouse cancer."

 

[intlzncster]

Jae Crowder's mom passed away from cancer the day the trade was announced. Awful.

Really wish I hadn't used the phrase "clubhouse cancer."

Given that Jae's the farthest thing from it, not a big deal.

Gonna miss that dude.

 

[Walker11]

At the very least, I'm not sure how you'd contend Beal being better than Hayward. GH probably has just as much upward projection given he's coming from Utah who was either the 1st or 2nd slowest pace team last year.

I think Wall has shown himself to be slightly better than Kyrie but I think Kyrie has another level he can reach. Maybe Wall can too if he tightens up his shot but these guys are definitely close. In my eyes, Horford is a little more valuable than Porter but their careers are on different trajectories. And as you pointed out, Hayward over Beal is the most clear cut out of these 3 comparisons but I do think Beal is a tad underrated and he made a big leap last year. He just turned 24 and had his 1st healthy season since age 20. I think this comparison can be more of a toss-up in a year or two but you are correct - I could not in good faith argue that Beal is currently the better player.

 

[champs99and04]

I think this is a case where the kid getting picked on in the cafeteria is actually winning the fight. I'm open-minded on Irving, but @the Q is taking this round 10-8 on my card. I consider many of these posters some of the best on the board, but the Irving capes are perfectly tailored to the lowest common denominator and when you start dismissing the idea that Gordon Hayward could be better than Kyrie, you're watching the sport through the eyes of an and one mix tape.

There is also a fallacy that anti analytics people like to promote that this is all somehow randomized calculator data. No. These stats derive from real people watching games in a painstaking manner - I would wager that the guys who bash numbers watch a lot less basketball than those who actually produce such formulas. Numbers miss a lot. Humans miss way more. Kyrie Irving's team not being good when he is on the floor without LeBron is not an "advanced analytic." It's a stat that is about as easy to process as it gets.

Additionally, thinking that we should write off a stat because of one or two outliers - like Crowder and Johnson being atop the board - is like discrediting poll data because a candidate received 48% of the vote instead of 44%.

 

[kobe]

I think Wall has shown himself to be slightly better than Kyrie but I think Kyrie has another level he can reach. Maybe Wall can too if he tightens up his shot but these guys are definitely close. In my eyes, Horford is a little more valuable than Porter but their careers are on different trajectories. And as you pointed out, Hayward over Beal is the most clear cut out of these 3 comparisons but I do think Beal is a tad underrated and he made a big leap last year. He just turned 24 and had his 1st healthy season since age 20. I think this comparison can be more of a toss-up in a year or two but you are correct - I could not in good faith argue that Beal is currently the better player.

I'm dying laughing at that profile picture dude.

 

[nomar]

I think this is a case where the kid getting picked on in the cafeteria is actually winning the fight. I'm open-minded on Irving, but @the Q is taking this round 10-8 on my card. I consider many of these posters some of the best on the board, but the Irving capes are perfectly tailored to the lowest common denominator and when you start dismissing the idea that Gordon Hayward could be better than Kyrie, you're watching the sport through the eyes of an and one mix tape.

There is also a fallacy that anti analytics people like to promote that this is all somehow randomized calculator data. No. These stats derive from real people watching games in a painstaking manner - I would wager that the guys who bash numbers watch a lot less basketball than those who actually produce such formulas. Numbers miss a lot. Humans miss way more. Kyrie Irving's team not being good when he is on the floor without LeBron is not an "advanced analytic." It's a stat that is about as easy to process as it gets.

Additionally, thinking that we should write off a stat because of one or two outliers - like Crowder and Johnson being atop the board - is like discrediting poll data because a candidate received 48% of the vote instead of 44%.

You must be a WBC judge.

 

[Deleted at users request]

This trade was great for both teams. Cavs solve their problem while being able to add another scoring guard and a much needed perimiter defender. They also prepare for life after Lebron with that Nets draft pick and will have PLENTY of cap space. The Celtics get their franchise player with Kyrie and solve their problem of having to pay a max deal to keep IT. Kyrie will be an upgrade over IT IMO. Think he will be great for Boston as a focal point and Brad Stevens is going to do a terrific job with him. Future looks bright in BOS and they still have a lot of assets left to upgrade with.

Boston > Washington IMO this year. They had a great offseason with a high caliber starting 5 to go along with depth. The Wizards have not addressed their bench issues yet. I'm looking forward to seeing how Kyrie does in Brad Stevens offense with this roster. He can be a top 5 MVP candidate. Boston's starting 5 offensively will be fun to watch. Everyone can space the floor.

 

[Walker11]

I think this is a case where the kid getting picked on in the cafeteria is actually winning the fight. I'm open-minded on Irving, but @the Q is taking this round 10-8 on my card. I consider many of these posters some of the best on the board, but the Irving capes are perfectly tailored to the lowest common denominator and when you start dismissing the idea that Gordon Hayward could be better than Kyrie, you're watching the sport through the eyes of an and one mix tape.

There is also a fallacy that anti analytics people like to promote that this is all somehow randomized calculator data. No. These stats derive from real people watching games in a painstaking manner - I would wager that the guys who bash numbers watch a lot less basketball than those who actually produce such formulas. Numbers miss a lot. Humans miss way more. Kyrie Irving's team not being good when he is on the floor without LeBron is not an "advanced analytic." It's a stat that is about as easy to process as it gets.

Additionally, thinking that we should write off a stat because of one or two outliers - like Crowder and Johnson being atop the board - is like discrediting poll data because a candidate received 48% of the vote instead of 44%.

What is he even trying to argue (I have gotten lost in all the hyperbole)? That the Celtics lost the trade because Kyrie is only a marginally superior player to IT? I mean, that is a fine argument and possibly correct and the advanced metrics would show that he is probably right. And even non-advanced metrics like simply watching how the Cavs perform without Lebron. The only statement of his that seems to be completely wrong IMO is the idea that Hayward is definitely going to be the #1 option on the C's. There are a million factors that will determine the trade "winner" including the draft pick, IT and his recovery or lack thereof, Kyrie's possible leap so really any definitive judgement seems BS to me.

 

[the Q]

What is he even trying to argue (I have gotten lost in all the hyperbole)? That the Celtics lost the trade because Kyrie is only a marginally superior player to IT? I mean, that is a fine argument and possibly correct and the advanced metrics would show that he is probably right. And even non-advanced metrics like simply watching how the Cavs perform without Lebron. The only statement of his that seems to be completely wrong IMO is the idea that Hayward is definitely going to be the #1 option on the C's. There are a million factors that will determine the trade "winner" including the draft pick, IT and his recovery or lack thereof, Kyrie's possible leap so really any definitive judgement seems BS to me.

I said Hayward was the better player and would be the bigger fan favorite in Boston.

 

[huskymedic]

 

[Wordbomar]

Ohhhhh boy

 

[auror]

Honestly, I think the Cavs should do it even if IT's physical isn't great. Seems that's why the tweets were worded the way they were ("weighing options" "very sensitive situation").

 

[nelsonmuntz]

There is no way to "make the deal better" by Boston. If Thomas has a material chance of not being able to play, there is nothing that Boston can do to sweeten it from Cleveland's perspective. Cleveland should just walk. If Thomas can play, I think Ainge has paid enough already for Kyrie, and should walk if Cleveland tries to renegotiate the deal.

 

[NielsisGood]

Honestly, I think the Cavs should do it even if IT's physical isn't great. Seems that's why the tweets were worded the way they were ("weighing options" "very sensitive situation").

Wouldn't be a bad move to just renege on the deal and leave the C's with an unhappy IT and Jae. Maybe Ainge was playing 4D chess all along and offered the Brooklyn pick to go ahead and push this aspect of the deal through.

 

[methodology]

Cleveland may want another pick if IT hip is so bad he can't play

 

[the Q]

Cleveland may want another pick if IT hip is so bad he can't play

Dare them to walk away from the deal

 

[Walker11]

Dare them to walk away from the deal

If I'm the Cavs, I like the Nets pick and Crowder alone more than the other speculative trade packages that have been thrown around. I would consider the Nuggets offer if they include both Murray and Harris, plus a 1st rounder and some interesting wing chips.

The Nets pick has been slagged on a little bit; people are speculating that the Nets won't be as bad as they were last year but I don't see it. That roster is still dreadful and Lopez was a very good player. That asset should be a huge coup.

 

[the Q]

If I'm the Cavs, I like the Nets pick and Crowder alone more than the other speculative trade packages that have been thrown around. I would consider the Nuggets offer if they include both Murray and Harris, plus a 1st rounder and some interesting wing chips.

The Nets pick has been slagged on a little bit; people are speculating that the Nets won't be as bad as they were last year but I don't see it. That roster is still dreadful and Lopez was a very good player. That asset should be a huge coup.

That's my point. There's basically no chance CLe gets a better deal than this.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

That's my point. There's basically no chance CLe gets a better deal than this.

Cleveland is asking for more. The newbie Cavs GM could be overplaying his hand.

 

[the Q]

Cleveland is asking for more. The newbie Cavs GM could be overplaying his hand.

He'd be doing Danny a favor vetoing the deal. Danny needs to be on a 5 year timeline to beat Gs. Not 2 or 3

 

[Walker11]

Cleveland is asking for more. The newbie Cavs GM could be overplaying his hand.

Perhaps. Some of the other offers were enticing (maybe the Bucks or Nuggets) so he may prefer the backup. The thing that confuses me is that I imagined that IT's injury history was priced into the trade. Either Altman is overplaying, which you suggest, or IT's injury is far worse than he thought.

Without a team to root for, I mainly root for chaos. A veto would surely create chaos. Stevens would have a helluva time reintegrating IT and Crowder. IT was reportedly and understandably very hurt by the trade and Crowder has always been temperamental. We already saw how he reacted last year to the TD Garden cheering for chanting Hayward's name. They would need to be traded anyways, right? At least Jae.

I liked Kyrie's fit on the Celtics but I really want to see him go to one of the 2 teams I mentioned earlier. I think he is an excellent fit next to both Giannis and Jokic.

 

[the Q]

Perhaps. Some of the other offers were enticing (maybe the Bucks or Nuggets) so he may prefer the backup. The thing that confuses me is that I imagined that IT's injury history was priced into the trade. Either Altman is overplaying, which you suggest, or IT's injury is far worse than he thought.

Without a team to root for, I mainly root for chaos. A veto would surely create chaos. Stevens would have a helluva time reintegrating IT and Crowder. IT was reportedly and understandably very hurt by the trade and Crowder has always been temperamental. We already saw how he reacted last year to the TD Garden cheering for chanting Hayward's name. They would need to be traded anyways, right? At least Jae.

I liked Kyrie's fit on the Celtics but I really want to see him go to one of the 2 teams I mentioned earlier. I think he is an excellent fit next to both Giannis and Jokic.

Great fit with jokic and Murray.

They can get start a deal with Mudiay and Gary Harris.

 

[the Q]

Perhaps. Some of the other offers were enticing (maybe the Bucks or Nuggets) so he may prefer the backup. The thing that confuses me is that I imagined that IT's injury history was priced into the trade. Either Altman is overplaying, which you suggest, or IT's injury is far worse than he thought.

Without a team to root for, I mainly root for chaos. A veto would surely create chaos. Stevens would have a helluva time reintegrating IT and Crowder. IT was reportedly and understandably very hurt by the trade and Crowder has always been temperamental. We already saw how he reacted last year to the TD Garden cheering for chanting Hayward's name. They would need to be traded anyways, right? At least Jae.

I liked Kyrie's fit on the Celtics but I really want to see him go to one of the 2 teams I mentioned earlier. I think he is an excellent fit next to both Giannis and Jokic.

It's a shame cause crowder and Hayward are a great pairing imo. I play GH at the 2 and Crowder at the 3. Good defensive versatility and the 3pt shooting they need until the young kids grow up.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I don't think the Bucks deal was real, and I don't think it was better than the Celtics offer. And I say this as someone that likes brogdan, Middleton and the bucks.

 

[the Q]

I don't think the Bucks deal was real, and I don't think it was better than the Celtics offer. And I say this as someone that likes brogdan, Middleton and the bucks.

With Kyrie and Parker and Monroe....that's some serious questionable defense around the freak. The first 2 can't guard anyone.