OT: Celtics / Cavs megadeal

[nomar]

Can't believe Danny caved. This is a C-/D deal.

Caved? Giving up a 2020 2nd Rounder? He needed to give the Cavs something for the deal to go down so they could save face.

But the Celts "won" this part of the deal.

This was amateur hour on the part of the Cavs.

 

[the Q]

Caved? Giving up a 2020 2nd Rounder? He needed to give the Cavs something for the deal to go down so they could save face.

But the Celts "won" this part of the deal.

This was amateur hour on the part of the Cavs.

Giving up more to guarantee you get schooled by a rookie gm is caving.

They would've been better off letting the deal fall apart. Brooklyn never should've been a part of this discussion.

 

[nomar]

Giving up more to guarantee you get schooled by a rookie gm is caving.

They would've been better off letting the deal fall apart. Brooklyn never should've been a part of this discussion.

What constituted a good deal when it was made and what constituted a good deal after the Celtis alienated a guy with his heart on his sleeve and a chip on his shoulder (two guys, actually) are two very, very different things. You realize that, right?

Altman got schooled. "We want Tatum." "You'll get a guy from Oregon State who'll never play a day in the NBA." "Deal."

It's not really his fault--reports are that Gilbert was driving the bus--but he ain't winning any Executive of the Year awards for this. It's a good deal for the Cavs but he looks like a clown. You trade for a guy you know is injured, you leak and allow to be implied all kinds of explosive stuff even though the player passes the physical, and then after all that you take a meaningless future pick? Not a good look.

 

[NielsisGood]

Looking at Miami, that pick could easily end up in the top 40. They're capped out and older than you think.

Aside from Horford what relevant player on this current Celts team wont either be squarely in their prime or on the upward trajectory toward their prime?

 

[the Q]

What constituted a good deal when it was made and what constituted a good deal after the Celtis alienated a guy with his heart on his sleeve and a chip on his shoulder (two guys, actually) are two very, very different things. You realize that, right?

Altman got schooled. "We want Tatum." "You'll get a guy from Oregon State who'll never play a day in the NBA." "Deal."

It's not really his fault--reports are that Gilbert was driving the bus--but he ain't winning any Executive of the Year awards for this. It's a good deal for the Cavs but he looks like a clown. You trade for a guy you know is injured, you leak and allow to be implied all kinds of explosive stuff even though the player passes the physical, and then after all that you take a meaningless future pick? Not a good look.

Disagree.

They're professionals and IT has way too much on the line to sulk.

Crowder goes form starting to a bench player in CLe. I doubt he'd be nearly as angry as others think.

The clippers pick max should've been the pick in this deal, especially when paired with zizic .

 

[the Q]

May have already been posted but Zach Lowe wrote a piece on why this is a good trade for Boston. Good read:

Lowe: Why the Kyrie Irving trade makes sense for Boston

Amazing how he acknowledges why he's wrong (he's not close to a top 10 player, he's not the best player on a title team, he can't even spell defense), and then does a miserable job explaining them away.

 

[the Q]

Aside from Horford what relevant player on this current Celts team wont either be squarely in their prime or on the upward trajectory toward their prime?

And in 2-3 years when GS may be vulnerable...now it's horford and Hayward.

 

[NielsisGood]

And in 2-3 years when GS may be vulnerable...now it's horford and Hayward.

Hayward will be 29 in 2 years.

 

[the Q]

Hayward will be 29 in 2 years.

And will be in his decline phase already. He'll still be good, but not this year or last year good

 

[the Q]

Hayward will be 29 in 2 years.

Here's an article for it.

Is Boston, Miami or Utah the best spot for Gordon Hayward?

 

[nomar]

Disagree.

They're professionals and IT has way too much on the line to sulk.

Crowder goes form starting to a bench player in CLe. I doubt he'd be nearly as angry as others think.

The clippers pick max should've been the pick in this deal, especially when paired with zizic .

1. He would've played hard and scored a lot of points if the deal was canceled. But would he have played for the name on the front of his jersey or the back?

2. Maybe. But Crowder wasn't happy all last year knowing that the Celts wanted to upgrade at SF with Hayward and he can't have been too happy to see it happen. And his PT would've been cut in Boston.

Maybe your first two points are right. I don't think so. More likely Ainge would've had to deal them for very low value.

3. This is conflating the value of the deal when it was made and the value of the deal once we all found out that (as both sides knew) IT's injury was more serious than a lot of people knew, and the value of the deal once it was made and Cleveland was threatening to renege. When the deal was made I thought it was an overpay. But what I said (among other things) was, IT's injury must be more serious than I thought it was. Turned out it was.

 

[NielsisGood]

And will be in his decline phase already. He'll still be good, but not this year or last year good

Name me a single all star level player in the last 10 or so years who didn't have any injury history that started noticeably declining by the age of 29.

 

[the Q]

1. He would've played hard and scored a lot of points if the deal was canceled. But would he have played for the name on the front of his jersey or the back?

2. Maybe. But Crowder wasn't happy all last year knowing that the Celts wanted to upgrade at SF with Hayward and he can't have been too happy to see it happen. And his PT would've been cut in Boston.

Maybe your first two points are right. I don't think so. More likely Ainge would've had to deal them for very low value.

3. This is conflating the value of the deal when it was made and the value of the deal once we all found out that (as both sides knew) IT's injury was more serious than a lot of people knew, and the value of the deal once it was made and Cleveland was threatening to renege. When the deal was made I thought it was an overpay. But what I said (among other things) was, IT's injury must be more serious than I thought it was. Turned out it was.

Then let them reneg. There isn't a form of a kyrie deal on earth that gets me to give up Brooklyn for him

 

[the Q]

1. He would've played hard and scored a lot of points if the deal was canceled. But would he have played for the name on the front of his jersey or the back?

2. Maybe. But Crowder wasn't happy all last year knowing that the Celts wanted to upgrade at SF with Hayward and he can't have been too happy to see it happen. And his PT would've been cut in Boston.

Maybe your first two points are right. I don't think so. More likely Ainge would've had to deal them for very low value.

3. This is conflating the value of the deal when it was made and the value of the deal once we all found out that (as both sides knew) IT's injury was more serious than a lot of people knew, and the value of the deal once it was made and Cleveland was threatening to renege. When the deal was made I thought it was an overpay. But what I said (among other things) was, IT's injury must be more serious than I thought it was. Turned out it was.

To number 1, I've always had hat question.

There's a reason he was a malcontent everywhere he went until Brad just gave him reign to be a gunner.

 

[the Q]

1. He would've played hard and scored a lot of points if the deal was canceled. But would he have played for the name on the front of his jersey or the back?

2. Maybe. But Crowder wasn't happy all last year knowing that the Celts wanted to upgrade at SF with Hayward and he can't have been too happy to see it happen. And his PT would've been cut in Boston.

Maybe your first two points are right. I don't think so. More likely Ainge would've had to deal them for very low value.

3. This is conflating the value of the deal when it was made and the value of the deal once we all found out that (as both sides knew) IT's injury was more serious than a lot of people knew, and the value of the deal once it was made and Cleveland was threatening to renege. When the deal was made I thought it was an overpay. But what I said (among other things) was, IT's injury must be more serious than I thought it was. Turned out it was.

One thing that is for certain, Danny cares a lot more about feelings this summer than most.

First not going hard for butler cause they didn't think he and Hayward would mesh, and now this.

 

[champs99and04]

Tom Haberstroh is on ESPN right now saying their RPM models project the Celtics to win 45 games and that he agrees with them.

I don't agree with everything he's saying in his explanation, but he makes a good point in saying that this is essentially going to be a brand new Celtics team. That's something I don't think enough people are talking about - they had a really good team in place that they essentially blew up, and while I think they'll be better in the long-run, the results might not be there immediately. I think people are factoring in Stevens being a wizard to their optimism, but is he better than a guy like Spoelstra? Maybe not. 56.5 wins or whatever it is seems too high.

 

[champs99and04]

Name me a single all star level player in the last 10 or so years who didn't have any injury history that started noticeably declining by the age of 29.

Deron Williams is the only guy that comes to mind. (Ben Gordon wasn't an all-star, I don't think, but he'd fit too.)

 

[NielsisGood]

Deron Williams is the only guy that comes to mind. (Ben Gordon wasn't an all-star, I don't think, but he'd fit too.)

Yeah I guess he had his fall off around his age 30 season. Just kinda seemed like he got fat/out of shape.

 

[the Q]

Name me a single all star level player in the last 10 or so years who didn't have any injury history that started noticeably declining by the age of 29.

KG's decline started at 29 based on both BPM and VORP. And never hit his age 28 levels again, or frankly ever came remotely close.

had a bounce back year in 07-08 (but not up to his previous Minny levels) and then never came close again. Yes he got hurt in 08-09, but he wasn't on track to reach the previous year's level anyway based on VORP.

I admit he's a little odd because he came right out of HS so he probably has more miles on his body than most average 29 year olds, but he would fit. Deron Williams seems to fit as well.

 

[the Q]

Yeah I guess he had his fall off around his age 30 season. Just kinda seemed like he got fat/out of shape.

Didn't wiliams seemingly have ankle problems forever? or is that just me?

 

[NielsisGood]

KG's decline started at 29 based on both BPM and VORP. And never hit his age 28 levels again, or frankly ever came remotely close.

had a bounce back year in 07-08 (but not up to his previous Minny levels) and then never came close again. Yes he got hurt in 08-09, but he wasn't on track to reach the previous year's level anyway based on VORP.

I admit he's a little odd because he came right out of HS so he probably has more miles on his body than most average 29 year olds, but he would fit. Deron Williams seems to fit as well.

I think you may have misunderstood the question, name me a player within the last 10 years that had a noticeable decline (that wasn't primarily injury related). I didn't ask if a player had their best season at 29. KG still put up 22-13-4 on 53% for a horrible TWolves team as a 29 year old. Even if that might not have been his absolute best season, you wouldn't call that a noticeable decline from his prime phase either.

 

[NielsisGood]

Didn't wiliams seemingly have ankle problems forever? or is that just me?

That would invalidate him from inclusion then as his decline would at that point be injury related as opposed to just a normal age related decline in production.

 

[HooperScooper]

And will be in his decline phase already. He'll still be good, but not this year or last year good

And you know this how????

 

[champs99and04]

Yeah I guess he had his fall off around his age 30 season. Just kinda seemed like he got fat/out of shape.

Just one of those guys. Josh Smith might deserve a mention too, now that I think of it. Dwight has obviously had the back problems.

 

[NielsisGood]

Just one of those guys. Josh Smith might deserve a mention too, now that I think of it. Dwight has obviously had the back problems.

J Smoove never made an all star team to my knowledge.