OT: - Celtics / Cavs megadeal | Page 9 | The Boneyard

OT: Celtics / Cavs megadeal

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PAHusky said:
Who is saying that a pick in the top 5 is better than Kyrie? No one. I agree with the rest of what you wrote but let's not start erecting strawmen either. Everyone is simply saying that right now it looks like the outcome of that nets pick may swing whether or not this trade is viewed as a success in Cleveland down the road and that right now it looks like that was steep price to pay.
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Many people are acting like Kyrie isn't a great player in the NBA or could easily be trumped by who is selected with that draft pick, and my point is just that there are so many random variables involved in a draft pick blossoming into a 25 year old Allstar. Beyond their health and development turning out well for you, you also have to hope you keep him and he doesnt walk to the Lakers or whoever else is buzzy when their rookie contract is up.

I'm fine with the trade being considered close to a win-win, but can't take people saying Boston got fleeced. It isn't easy to get a player like Kyrie in a trade
 
You have to give Ainge credit for trusting their evaluation and going all in. He really doesn't care about consensus. He is clearly higher on Kyrie than most in media. For whatever reason, and I have some ideas, it seems that NBA staff and players think more highly of Irving than media. More daring than this is valuing Tatum and Brown over the pick. We know he sees Tatum differently than most organizations already because of the Fultz trade. His valuation of Brown is more interesting to me. Either Ainge is way off, or Brown and Tatum are going to be an unparalleled wing combination for years to come.
 
Kembacity said:
Many people are acting like Kyrie isn't a great player in the NBA or could easily be trumped by who is selected with that draft pick, and my point is just that there are so many random variables involved in a draft pick blossoming into a 25 year old Allstar. Beyond their health and development turning out well for you, you also have to hope you keep him and he doesnt walk to the Lakers or whoever else is buzzy when their rookie contract is up.

I'm fine with the trade being considered close to a win-win, but can't take people saying Boston got fleeced. It isn't easy to get a player like Kyrie in a trade
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Some people still think Kyrie is more of an empty stat Marbury type who can't be the man on a contender. If that evaluation is correct, a top 5 pick may be more valuable.
 
walker11 said:
Some people still think Kyrie is more of an empty stat Marbury type who can't be the man on a contender. If that evaluation is correct, a top 5 pick may be more valuable.
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I am in that camp. I don't think there is a next level to Kyrie. I think he is who he is. I like Hayward and think the Celts could still be pretty good this year, but the Celts gave up a lot to get a mediocre defender who takes a ton of shots and doesn't create for his teammates. Ainge must think that Kyrie has a next level. We will find out soon enough.

Obviously, Cleveland thinks IT's hip is worth the risk. I also think Crowder will help get Lebron's minutes down, which needs to happen immediately. I think Zizic also has potential, and a Top 5 pick is a Top 5 pick. Cleveland is looking to a post-Lebron future, and this is a good first step.
 
the Q said:
This is exactly why I disagree. Their timeline isn't the next 2 years. It's years 3-4 from now. When the Warriors are getting olders and the role players more expensive and and not contributing as much.

Danny made this move basically going all in.

Also, Kyrie wanted to be the man. he's still going to be in Hayward's shadow here.

GH is a better player, who came here because of his coach, and hasn't been the enemy like Kyrie has been. He's a likeable guy who left for good reasons and didn't mope his way out of town like Kyrie did.

If Kyrie wants to be the man, he's not gonna be that in Boston. He'll still be #2.
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.....LOL
 
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walker11 said:
You have to give Ainge credit for trusting their evaluation and going all in. He really doesn't care about consensus. He is clearly higher on Kyrie than most in media. For whatever reason, and I have some ideas, it seems that NBA staff and players think more highly of Irving than media. More daring than this is valuing Tatum and Brown over the pick. We know he sees Tatum differently than most organizations already because of the Fultz trade. His valuation of Brown is more interesting to me. Either Ainge is way off, or Brown and Tatum are going to be an unparalleled wing combination for years to come.
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Tatum is obvious, they valued him at #1 overall this year and Nets pick is likely to be worse than #1 overall.

Brown is more interesting. If I had to guess, I'd say part of it is timeline and part is position. The Celtics have a window now stretching for 3-5 more years, so they will ideally need someone capable of contributing as at least a rotation player for as much of that window as possible on a cheap cost-controlled contract. Brown should have the ability to switch PnRs, guard all the wing positions, and make enough 3s on the other end to keep the defense spaced, which is probably the most important role player in the current NBA. With Crowder in the trade, that role will fall more fully onto Brown (and maybe Ojeleye). That seems to be his floor, so he could obviously develop into much more. You might be able to do better than that with the BRK pick, but keeping Brown is the safer option.
 
NielsisGood said:
What a delusional hill to die on.
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There's more to the game than scoring. It's a given Hayward is the better player.

It's not even a debate
 
Very interesting to see the Boston fans' takes on this trade. Very curious to see how it turns out.
 
By the way, is anyone else not seeing that thread on the front page? I haven't seen it since yesterday, in fact I started a thread that merged with a bunch of others and i haven't seen it since -- Except for others linking to it as here.
 
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the Q said:
There's more to the game than scoring. It's a given Hayward is the better player.

It's not even a debate
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You literally win the game by having more points than the other team. It's a given that Hayward is better defensively than Kyrie (although it's not like Hayward is Kawhi or anything), but that difference doesn't make up for how much better Kyrie is in every aspect on the offensive end.


I now feel stupid for even taking the bait.
 
walker11 said:
Some people still think Kyrie is more of an empty stat Marbury type who can't be the man on a contender. If that evaluation is correct, a top 5 pick may be more valuable.
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This is why Kyrie is so fascinating. Personally, I don't understand how anybody in either camp - especially fans - can be adamant enough about where he ranks as to dismiss a dissenting opinion. Typically I tend to rank NBA players by tiers, with tier one being a bonafide franchise talent, tier two being all-star caliber, and tier three being something below that. Gun to my head I have Kyrie in tier two, but he sure as hell looks like a tier one talent when he gets rolling on the big stage. Conversely, I'm not sold at all that he's better than Mike Conley or even Kemba.

What's more fascinating is that, to a lesser extent, all of those things could be said about Isaiah Thomas. Most of the time, it's easy to spot opinions on NBA players that are wrong and uninformed (i.e. JSM and Draymond Green), but with these two, I can't even really shout down the extremists. In a lot of ways that re-enforces your point that the NBA is the most compelling league going.
 
There is no debating that there is some serious debating going on in this thread. FWIW I think it was a pretty good deal for both teams. And both teams might not be done dealing. If IT is healthy do the Cavs need DRose? And the Celts have 11 new players so if they make another deal it wouldn't be surprising.
 
NielsisGood said:
You literally win the game by having more points than the other team. It's a given that Hayward is better defensively than Kyrie (although it's not like Hayward is Kawhi or anything), but that difference doesn't make up for how much better Kyrie is in every aspect on the offensive end.


I now feel stupid for even taking the bait.
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Metrics say you're flat out wrong.
 
champs99and04 said:
This is why Kyrie is so fascinating. Personally, I don't understand how anybody in either camp - especially fans - can be adamant enough about where he ranks as to dismiss a dissenting opinion. Typically I tend to rank NBA players by tiers, with tier one being a bonafide franchise talent, tier two being all-star caliber, and tier three being something below that. Gun to my head I have Kyrie in tier two, but he sure as hell looks like a tier one talent when he gets rolling on the big stage. Conversely, I'm not sold at all that he's better than Mike Conley or even Kemba.

What's more fascinating is that, to a lesser extent, all of those things could be said about Isaiah Thomas. Most of the time, it's easy to spot opinions on NBA players that are wrong and uninformed (i.e. JSM and Draymond Green), but with these two, I can't even really shout down the extremists. In a lot of ways that re-enforces your point that the NBA is the most compelling league going.
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Do The Celtics Have Enough Star Power To Win a Title? Not Yet.

He's basically the same tier as Conley.

That's reality.
 
Mr. French said:
By the way, is anyone else not seeing that thread on the front page? I haven't seen it since yesterday, in fact I started a thread that merged with a bunch of others and i haven't seen it since -- Except for others linking to it as here.
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I don't see it either. It's why o started one the other day too
 
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the Q said:
There's more to the game than scoring. It's a given Hayward is the better player.

It's not even a debate
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I love how you treat the NBA like it's college basketball.
 
BUConn10 said:
I love how you treat the NBA like it's college basketball.
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Where's the titles for Dantoni suns or his rockets?

Now they added some premium defensive talent they are a real contender.

Things like rebounding and defense matter, otherwise Portland would also be contenders.
 
BUConn10 said:
Wow, you have really pushed yourself off the deep end here.
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No. I'm living in reality. And I have evidence. There's no evidence he's actually an elite star like many of you are saying.
 
the Q said:
No. I'm living in reality. And I have evidence. There's no evidence he's actually an elite star like many of you are saying.
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Do you actually watch the NBA or just think you know basketball because of your calculator? I reference you to the 2016 NBA Finals Game 7. That's what Kyrie can do, not IT, what IT would have done was displayed in the ECF this year where he was essentially non-existant. This trade is a win both talent wise and financial wise, it's really not that hard to see, you can keep acting upset that a top 15 player joined the Celtics for Jae Crowder but no one is buying your secret stuff.
 
BUConn10 said:
Do you actually watch the NBA or just think you know basketball because of your calculator? I reference you to the 2016 NBA Finals Game 7. That's what Kyrie can do, not IT, what IT would have done was displayed in the ECF this year where he was essentially non-existant. This trade is a win both talent wise and financial wise, it's really not that hard to see, you can keep acting upset that a top 15 player joined the Celtics for Jae Crowder but no one is buying your secret stuff.
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Except he's not a top 10 player.

They didn't get a Cousins, or a Brow, or a Towns or even a Hayward.

They get a small upgrade on IT for the Price of a top 15 player.
 
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I don't love Kyrie as much as his skill set would seem to indicate, but I definitely think it was an upgrade for Boston in addition to the other factors (age, contracts, marketing, draft being uncertain) which all make the trade a good idea for Boston.

I think both organizations can look at it positively, with some risk. That's a good thing especially considering the magnitude of players and assets involved.

This probably won't be a fleecing either way, but every trade has that possibility.
 
champs99and04 said:
In a lot of ways that re-enforces your point that the NBA is the most compelling league going.
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The NBA is the most compelling league?

The last 3 finals have been played by the same two teams and going into the upcoming season, it would be shocking if GSW didn't make it and a 50/50 shot Cleveland won't.

I agree that the arguments for player v player are somewhat compelling as their advance metrics aren't as buttoned up as say MLB, but as far as a compelling league goes? 27 teams go into the season knowing they basically have no shot whatsoever.

Maybe I'm just a disillusioned Knick fan though.
 
ConnHuskBask said:
The NBA is the most compelling league?

The last 3 finals have been played by the same two teams and going into the upcoming season, it would be shocking if GSW didn't make it and a 50/50 shot Cleveland won't.

I agree that the arguments for player v player are somewhat compelling as their advance metrics aren't as buttoned up as say MLB, but as far as a compelling league goes? 27 teams go into the season knowing they basically have no shot whatsoever.

Maybe I'm just a disillusioned Knick fan though.
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Worst professional league in America...including MLS. It just doesn't function properly. So many things I'd change.

As for Kyrie, I think he is an upgrade over Thomas. It's the pick I care about. Here is where I think the Celtics are rolling the dice: He's a top 10'offensive talent who plays terrible D. I don't think his defense sucks because he's incapable, it's a question of effort. Is he willing to put forth that effort, rest a few more minutes a game and become an elite player. He can if he wants to.
 
HuskyHawk said:
Worst professional league in America...including MLS. It just doesn't function properly.

As for Kyrie, I think he is an upgrade over Thomas. It's the pick I care about. Here is where I think the Celtics are rolling the dice: He's a top 10'offensive talent who plays terrible D. I don't think his defense sucks because he's incapable, it's a question of effort. Is he willing to put forth that effort, rest a few more minutes a game and become an elite player. He can if he wants to.
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So many things I'd change. I'm interested in hearing your changes. I like college and pro hoop but I know there are a lot of college bball fans that can't stomach pro hoop. How would you make it better?
 
HuskyHawk said:
Worst professional league in America...including MLS. It just doesn't function properly. So many things I'd change.

As for Kyrie, I think he is an upgrade over Thomas. It's the pick I care about. Here is where I think the Celtics are rolling the dice: He's a top 10'offensive talent who plays terrible D. I don't think his defense sucks because he's incapable, it's a question of effort. Is he willing to put forth that effort, rest a few more minutes a game and become an elite player. He can if he wants to.
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The NBA is more popular than ever and has turned into year round entertainment due to the new era of free agency and blockbuster trades. Add the draft and the newfound popularity of summer league and the dead period is now what, a month? And this boon is occurring during a period where the competitive imbalance is at an all-time high, due to a huge F-up in not smoothing out the cap jump. That is a real issue no doubt but should be remedied soon - it sucks having to wait out the Dubs but the league is still killing it.

This is not referring to you, but not a ton of things more annoying than some dude just getting into advanced analytics.
 
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