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OT: Celtics / Cavs megadeal

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polycom said:
You think the Celts are the loser on this trade?
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It's not even a question.

They gave up way too much for a minimal upgrade.
 
MilliniumPrince said:
Yes, he was injured, played better teams, and everyone realized they had no legit second option. Oh, and his sister died in a car accident. But yes, if you overlook all that....

I am not saying IT is better than Kyrie. I just don't think he is much worse. Straight up, I take Kyrie. Add in Crowder and a likely top 5 draft pick I take IT.
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His shooting percentages were actually much worse in the '16 playoffs than the '17 playoffs. He was 39% from the field and 28% from 3. What are your excuses for that performance?

Kyrie is better, much better, younger, signed longer, and oh, also a lot better when it matters; the playoffs.
 
MilliniumPrince said:
Because they are both only good at scoring and his height hasn't stopped him from doing so in high volume. His height is only and issue on Defense, and if you think that give Kyrie and advantage.....you have never seen him play defense. He is turrrible.

By the way, Kyrie is 6'3". And he is still a bad defender.
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Kyrie is mediocre defensively on his good days. That said, if this trade was just Irving for Thomas/Crowder, it would be a decent deal for Boston. They don't need Crowder and Thomas may be coming off a career year. Zizic has a lot of potential, but who knows if or when he will show up, so you can live with him being added to the deal. Giving up what could be a Top 5 draft pick as a throw in is just flat out crazy.
 
the Q said:
I've already schooled you but if you wanna keep going.

Crowder had the best RPM of any one in the deal.

The difference from IT to Kyrie was small....crowder alone makes it an overpay. The premium pick, the crown jewel of the trade with Brooklyn, makes it suicidal.
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Fair points, but the Celts were going to lose IT anyway. They were never going to sign him to a max deal. They got a big name player who is as offensively talented as any point guard in the league. I think the Cavs got the better end of the deal too, but not by much.
 
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the Q said:
I've already schooled you but if you wanna keep going.

Crowder had the best RPM of any one in the deal.

The difference from IT to Kyrie was small....crowder alone makes it an overpay. The premium pick, the crown jewel of the trade with Brooklyn, makes it suicidal.
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Schooled me? Ha you have been made to look like a fool and Chad Ford wannabe. Tell me the player who will make 4 All Star games in his first 6 years in this draft, still waiting for this from you. Or has Chad Ford not responded to your email yet so you can tell me the answer?

Crowder's PER was 137th, tied with Bobby Portis. Just stop, you are embarrassing yourself.
 
polycom said:
Hilarious, winning the regular season isn't their goal.
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Go check out the take from whatever hoops journalist you respect. The consensus is that it was either a win win (my leaning) or a fleecing by CLE. You are on an island with your take. It is JSMesque to have the sole contrary opinion, yet remain convinced everyone else crazy.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
Kyrie is mediocre defensively on his good days. That said, if this trade was just Irving for Thomas/Crowder, it would be a decent deal for Boston. They don't need Crowder and Thomas may be coming off a career year. Zizic has a lot of potential, but who knows if or when he will show up, so you can live with him being added to the deal. Giving up what could be a Top 5 draft pick as a throw in is just flat out crazy.
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Cavs won't make the deal without the pick or Tatum. People seem to forget Kyrie is a professional under contract. It isn't like he would have refused to show up in Cleveland when the season started. Personally, I think the Cavs should have kept him. I would have called him in, listened to his complaints, paid a little lip-service, then told him to get his ass to work. It would have been uncomfortable for 20 games, maybe. Shaq threatened to kill Kobe after the snitching on video during his rape interrogation. That team went to the Finals. These guys are pros and money talks.
 
walker11 said:
Go check out the take from whatever hoops journalist you respect. The consensus is that it was either a win win (my leaning) or a fleecing by CLE. You are on an island with your take. It is JSMesque to have the sole contrary opinion, yet remain convinced everyone else crazy.
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I think its a win - win but I'm very low on IT. A 5' 9 30 year old PG that is a score first PG no thanks.
 
Jerry1714 said:
His shooting percentages were actually much worse in the '16 playoffs than the '17 playoffs. He was 39% from the field and 28% from 3. What are your excuses for that performance?

Kyrie is better, much better, younger, signed longer, and oh, also a lot better when it matters; the playoffs.
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I think you meant to say "Kyrie is better, much better....as long as he is playing next to Lebron." Let's see how far he can carry a good team with expectations when he is the lead dog.
 
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polycom said:
Hilarious, winning the regular season isn't their goal.
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He's a marginal upgrade.

RPM backs this.

AS does the other link I just posted.

There is more to basketball than just scoring points.
 
polycom said:
I think its a win - win but I'm very low on IT. A 5' 9 30 year old PG that is a score first PG no thanks.
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I didn't want IT long term, but vastly overpaying for Irving wasn't the answer.
 
the Q said:
He's a marginal upgrade.

RPM backs this.

AS does the other link I just posted.

There is more to basketball than just scoring points.
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What are you talking about I've been complain about IT lack of ability to play D, please point to where I mentioned scoring?
 
polycom said:
What are you talking about I've been complain about IT lack of ability to play D, please point to where I mentioned scoring?
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Irving doesn't play defense either.

They're both overrated.

It's a small upgrade on IT though.
 
the Q said:
Do the Boston Celtics have enough fire power to make the Finals? | isportsweb

This trade barely moves the needle and costs them 2 major assets.
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Where did I say they got better? I said it made sense because they were going to lose IT anyway and Boston isn't a destination for most big free agents. This was the best way to replace a big talent without hoping to lure a free agent.

I think they would have lost to the Cavs before the deal. I think they lose to the Cavs after the deal. But Ainge had to make this deal. Stockpiling picks only gets you so far. You have to put them to work at some point, and look at all the picks he still has in the bag. Mind you, I hate the Celtics.
 
polycom said:
I think its a win - win but I'm very low on IT. A 5' 9 30 year old PG that is a score first PG no thanks.
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Fair enough. I thought you were much lower on the Cavs side.
 
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MilliniumPrince said:
I think you meant to say "Kyrie is better, much better....as long as he is playing next to Lebron." Let's see how far he can carry a good team with expectations when he is the lead dog.
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Kyrie played 3 years without LeBron and won rookie of the year and went to 2 AS games.

What has IT done without Stevens?
 
MilliniumPrince said:
Where did I say they got better? I said it made sense because they were going to lose IT anyway and Boston isn't a destination for most big free agents. This was the best way to replace a big talent without hoping to lure a free agent.

I think they would have lost to the Cavs before the deal. I think they lose to the Cavs after the deal. But Ainge had to make this deal. Stockpiling picks only gets you so far. You have to put them to work at some point, and look at all the picks he still has in the bag. Mind you, I hate the Celtics.
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This is exactly why I disagree. Their timeline isn't the next 2 years. It's years 3-4 from now. When the Warriors are getting olders and the role players more expensive and and not contributing as much.

Danny made this move basically going all in.

Also, Kyrie wanted to be the man. he's still going to be in Hayward's shadow here.

GH is a better player, who came here because of his coach, and hasn't been the enemy like Kyrie has been. He's a likeable guy who left for good reasons and didn't mope his way out of town like Kyrie did.

If Kyrie wants to be the man, he's not gonna be that in Boston. He'll still be #2.
 
the Q said:
GH is a better player
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"Oh projects the Cavs' win total will stay the same at 54.2. Boston, meanwhile, jumps from 53.7 to 54.9 projected wins.

The big impact comes in the teams' chances to win the East. Boston's goes from a 33 percent chance to a 39.3 percent chance. The Cavs' chances in the East fall from 43.1 percent to 39.7 percent, though they remain the slight favorites in the East, according to the updated projections."

NBA News: How the reported Irving-Thomas deal affects the projected standings - SportsLine.com

Is an increase in wins and a significant increase in chances to win the East a good thing for a team or a bad thing?
 
Jerry1714 said:
"Oh projects the Cavs' win total will stay the same at 54.2. Boston, meanwhile, jumps from 53.7 to 54.9 projected wins.

The big impact comes in the teams' chances to win the East. Boston's goes from a 33 percent chance to a 39.3 percent chance. The Cavs' chances in the East fall from 43.1 percent to 39.7 percent, though they remain the slight favorites in the East, according to the updated projections."

NBA News: How the reported Irving-Thomas deal affects the projected standings - SportsLine.com

Is an increase in wins and a significant increase in chances to win the East a good thing for a team or a bad thing?
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A good thing - in a vacuum. But put another way, is barely moving the needle in win totals and increasing your chances of winning the east by 6% worth giving up the pick you included? That's the real debate. The argument isn't just whether these teams are better only next year, so that article isn't really helping any argument.
 
HuskyHawk said:
Did everyone just forget that they picked up Hayward? I don't think either Tatum or Brown are in the starting lineup.
I'm guessing here, but I think Ainge saw enough from Marcus Smart last season when IT got hurt, to want to find him minutes. Rozier has shown he can play. I think they will expect Smart to cover some of Irving's defensive weaknesses.
Brown is a pretty good defender on the wing as well, and his shooting should be improved. It's a very versatile team, which is what Steven's wants.

My main concern is rebounding and interior defense. Ainge is going to need to add someone else.
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Hayward is a very good player but he's not the difference in them beating Cleveland. Getting Hayward but sacrificing Bradley, Crowder (their 2 best defenders) and Olynk almost makes it a wash to me. Hayward will give you more scoring but your perimeter D takes a big hit. Smart can defend but he's undersized and he can't shoot.
 
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dogfan96 said:
Hayward is a very good player but he's not the difference in them beating Cleveland. Getting Hayward but sacrificing Bradley, Crowder (their 2 best defenders) and Olynk almost makes it a wash to me. Hayward will give you more scoring but your perimeter D takes a big hit. Smart can defend but he's undersized and he can't shoot.
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Hayward is the best player on the team.

That might be where this discussion goes off the rails.

Some people actually thinking Kyrie is the better player.
 
PAHusky said:
A good thing - in a vacuum. But put another way, is barely moving the needle in win totals and increasing your chances of winning the east by 6% worth giving up the pick you included? That's the real debate. The argument isn't just whether these teams are better only next year, so that article isn't really helping any argument.
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First, 6% is a lot.

Second, that pick has a higher probability to be Anthony Bennett then it does David Robinson.

With Horford and Hawayard they are not building for 5 years for now, they are building to win now. This trade improves those chances. Period.
 
Jerry1714 said:
How many other AS were on those Cleveland teams?

My point is the idea that LeBron makes Kyrie great is dumb and unsupported by anything
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........WHAT? So, missing the playoffs to three straight Finals....proves nothing to you? Really? DAMN!!
 
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