B1G, ACC battle for New York

[ctchamps]

We can revisit this in 10 years, and Rutgers will remain insignificant. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I know some laughed yesterday when I posted that Temple could provide to the ACC everything that Rutgers does to the Big Ten and more since Temple can at least win a basketball game. I still believe it. I don't know if the ACC would go that route, but it's available to them.

I hope to be here. And yes Temple could be an alternative. It faces the same difficulties Rutgers or any school that is trying to become a player faces. Personally I would have taken UConn, Temple and Rutgers over UConn, Cuse and Pitt at the time if I were the ACC and would be laughed out of this forum, never mind the ACC for this choice. Heck I wouldn't even have you as an ally. Add BC and Maryland and that would have been a good core of 5 northeastern universities with close proximity to get something started.

Those five universities would have a lot of work to do to get to a situation where they were relevant in football. But if they did they would dominate the last market still open to following college sports.

Would FSU or Clemson have liked that. Absolutely not. But FSU and Clemson have been getting top ten football classes for many years now and they have only shown periodic blips of doing something with those classes. When they chose Ville, don't you think they were doing the same thing all those in power do when wanting to avoid their population from over scrutinizing them. They divert attention away from themselves. So the FSU and Clemson administrations are going to make the case that the reason's for their shortcoming in performance in football was due to the weakness of the ACC as a football conference as opposed to their inability to get the right coaches. They'll blame the Virginia and North Carolina contingent as being the reason behind their failure. And it works because, as this forum demonstrates, we all don't add up 1 + 1 the same way or get the same results.

I would counter the Clemson and FSU argument with the logic that says if they couldn't go undefeated in a conference where everyone else is extremely weak, what makes anyone believe they could win in a conference that is composed of two or three programs of top ten quality. But what do I no what is logical.

 

[billybud]

"Shore" has a slightly different connotation than "beach." Beach is a specific reference to the sandy venue next to the water's edge. The beach implies activities like sunbathing and cavorting in the surf. Shore is a broader reference that includes beach stuff but also the bars and restaurants, boardwalk amusements, boating, etc.

Maybe...but when you go to the"beach" in the south...be it South Beach, Miami Beach, Daytona Beach, Myrtle Beach, Panama City Beach, Pensacola Beach...the term "beach" includes all....bars, amusement parks, the actual sandy beach, etc.

I think that it is a colloquial usage. Our waterfront towns have "beach" in the name.

 

[btstimpy]

I hope to be here. And yes Temple could be an alternative. It faces the same difficulties Rutgers or any school that is trying to become a player faces. Personally I would have taken UConn, Temple and Rutgers over UConn, Cuse and Pitt at the time if I were the ACC and would be laughed out of this forum, never mind the ACC for this choice. Heck I wouldn't even have you as an ally. Add BC and Maryland and that would have been a good core of 5 northeastern universities with close proximity to get something started.

Those five universities would have a lot of work to do to get to a situation where they were relevant in football. But if they did they would dominate the last market still open to following college sports.

Would FSU or Clemson have liked that. Absolutely not. But FSU and Clemson have been getting top ten football classes for many years now and they have only shown periodic blips of doing something with those classes. When they chose Ville, don't you think they were doing the same thing all those in power do when wanting to avoid their population from over scrutinizing them. They divert attention away from themselves. So the FSU and Clemson administrations are going to make the case that the reason's for their shortcoming in performance in football was due to the weakness of the ACC as a football conference as opposed to their inability to get the right coaches. They'll blame the Virginia and North Carolina contingent as being the reason behind their failure. And it works because, as this forum demonstrates, we all don't add up 1 + 1 the same way or get the same results.

I would counter the Clemson and FSU argument with the logic that says if they couldn't go undefeated in a conference where everyone else is extremely weak, what makes anyone believe they could win in a conference that is composed of two or three programs of top ten quality. But what do I no what is logical.

They wanted Louisville because a) Louisville is a closer drive for their fans. b) Louisville fans travel to road games and bowls pretty well c) Louisville like them have an instate rival that is in the SEC. It helps with the argument to keep the number of conference football games played in a season at 8.

I don't think that the ACC football conference is much weaker as a conference than the Big Ten Conference if at all. The ACC has a better bowl record than the Big Ten in the BCS era and a better winning percentage head to head. ACC teams have had trouble winning the Orange Bowl, but Big Ten teams usually lose the Rose Bowl. Heck even UVA, who is not the top football team in the ACC by any stretch, has a winning record since 2000 (2-1 vs Penn State, 2-0 vs Indiana, 1-0 vs Minnesota, 0-1 vs Wisconsin). The Big Ten's football glory days are in the 1960s and 1970s. Some in the media are still living off those days.

The SEC is another story entirely. They have a winning football record against the ACC. But the record in the Peach Bowl is about even.

 

[Fishy]

The ACC has been a spectacularly average conference - if the media gives the Big Ten a pass, and they do, they flat-out ignore the ACC's relative ineptitude in football.

 

[JayRU09]

The ACC is weaker through virtue of having less quality teams and being built on a foundation that requires a GOR and an entire network backing all three tiers of programming to make it seem stable.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

It has to do with lack of alumni and fan support for the size athletics program Maryland is trying to run. They need a smaller athletic department for the budget that they can afford. The problem for Maryland is that now they are going into a conference that has several programs that will operate on more than twice the budget that Maryland can afford. It will be difficult for Maryland to compete, and if the quality of the product they put on the field or on the court suffers, then the fans disappear.

For Maryland's sake they better hope Dr. Wallace Loh has a plan. For it is he that has set them on this course.

Football should not be a problem for Maryland going forward, there are enough B1G alumni in the Beltway to make-up for Maryland’s own fickle fans. Of course, that means Maryland home games against Ohio St, Michigan, etc. will look a lot like UConn basketball games at Providence, St, John’s, Seton Hall, etc.

 

[freescooter]

The ACC is weaker through virtue of having less quality teams and being built on a foundation that requires a GOR and an entire network backing all three tiers of programming to make it seem stable.

Actually, the ACC is weaker by a lot based on the over all quality of play and the lack of any significant teams other than Florida State. I keep hearing about Clemson, but good grief, if that's the #2 that shows just how low the league is. VaTech is probably the best of the bunch but they are not a national team in the sense that Ohio State, or Michigan or even Iowa and Michigan State are.

 

[btstimpy]

The ACC is weaker through virtue of having less quality teams and being built on a foundation that requires a GOR and an entire network backing all three tiers of programming to make it seem stable.

How do you define quality teams? Is it wins and losses? Is Penn State a quality team? Uva has won 2 out of 3 against them in the past 12 years. Does that make UVA more quality? Miami split with Ohio State, blowing out Ohio State a couple of years ago. I wonder if Miami is more quality? I will grant you that they have larger stadiums and larger alumni bases, but I don't see more quality teams. Not in the BCS era anyway.

 

[JayRU09]

It's all about those $$$$$$$$$$$ son.

And yes, OSU, Mich, PSU, MSU, Wisc, and Neb are teams that are better than any six team lineup you can make out of the ACC.

 

[btstimpy]

Actually, the ACC is weaker by a lot based on the over all quality of play and the lack of any significant teams other than Florida State. I keep hearing about Clemson, but good grief, if that's the #2 that shows just how low the league is. VaTech is probably the best of the bunch but they are not a national team in the sense that Ohio State, or Michigan or even Iowa and Michigan State are.

Michigan is 4-7 in their bowl appearances since 2000. Ohio State is 6-6. Michigan State is 3-5. The Nation gets to watch these teams lose an awful lot. If you call that impressive on a national basis, you can. But most don't.

 

[JayRU09]

They also face higher quality opponents than most ACC bowl tie ins.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

UNC's 'fiefdom' died when the first expansion came to pass. UNC was 100 percent against going past 10 teams, but,they got outvoted, 7-2, on that one. The University has basically been against all ACC expansion, but, they know they're powerless to stop it. Now, they do exert a lot of influence, but, UNC's influence within the ACC is minute, compared to what Texas has in the Big 12.

I agree. Texas is the XII. UNC, while not as powerful as Texas, is the glue that holds the ACC together. If UNC left the ACC, everyone else would follow them out the door with the only question being where each goes to (B1G v SEC v XII or in Wake Forest’s case, joining UConn in purgatory).

 

[SubbaBub]

Doesn't all this RU/SU and ACC/B1G fighting on our board serve as proof we are part of the NYC DMA?

 

[btstimpy]

Football should not be a problem for Maryland going forward, there are enough B1G alumni in the Beltway to make-up for Maryland’s own fickle fans. Of course, that means Maryland home games against Ohio St, Michigan, etc. will look a lot like UConn basketball games at Providence, St, John’s, Seton Hall, etc.

That's going to be a lot of fun for Maryland isn't it? We just had Penn State in Charlottesville last September, and I was proud to say we limited them to the end zone where visting fans sit. They did trickle out a little in the upper deck of the end zone, but not much. They are likely to totally take over Maryland's stadium.

Now all we need to do is figure out how to keep Hokies limited in our stadium. They tend to find a way to get too many tickets all over the stadium. That one is frustrating.

 

[JayRU09]

Doesn't all this RU/SU and ACC/B1G fighting on our board serve as proof we are part of the NYC DMA?

Yes. Because you're way friggin' closer to NYC than Cuse is.

I want UConn and Kansas (unless Mizzou would jump again, then I want Mizzou and UConn).

 

[DarthGrumpy]

I'm going to Jersey City to watch St Peters Prep's practice as the #1 RB in NJ is going to commit today to either OSU or RU and I want to see him...Jonathan Hilliman 6'1" 220 and record it as the big dogs are starting to stay home to play in the B1G!!Exciting times we live in after years of dissapointment until Mulcahy and Schiano took the reigns!Pernetti/Herman and Flood are still building on a rock foundation slowly rather than (short term/JUCO) stilts!!

FYI, The Don Bosco game at Paramus Catholic is going to be on ESPN2. I can only imagine the traffic for that.

http://www.northjersey.com/sports/2...atholic_to_air_live_to_air_live_on_ESPN2.html

 

[SubbaBub]

Yes. Because you're way friggin' closer to NYC than Cuse is.

I want UConn and Kansas (unless Mizzou would jump again, then I want Mizzou and UConn).

If I'm the B1G, I want UConn/Kansas or UConn/UVa. But, I'm biased.

 

[JayRU09]

I just think another western school is needed to appease Wisky and Nebraska, and Mizzou would be a better football pick than Kansas. Though the thought of them jumping again is almost comical, and I came up with it.

 

[billybud]

They also face higher quality opponents than most ACC bowl tie ins.

I agree that the ACC bowl tie ins have not been wonderful.

FSU does have the nation's longest active consecutive bowl winning streak going....

Over Wisconsin, WVU, South Carolina, Notre Dame, and (ugh) Northern Illinois.

 

[JayRU09]

I can barely count that WVU one. Basically them giving Bowden a present.

 

[SouthronCross]

Maybe I was a little impulsive on that one.

I can appreciate your passion for RU. You all have a great opportunity in front of you. If you can begin to keep NJ's best HSFB talent at home, you will make some noise in the B1G.

 

[JayRU09]

Begin?

I really hate when people who don't follow recruiting just make assumptions about how we are recruiting.

 

[freescooter]

I've posted this before, but most people don't get the New York market for college sports. There are a bunch of sub-markets, but bringing them all together to mean something is very difficult. That is one of the things that the old Big East managed to do fairly effectively. It remains to be seen whether the Big 10 or the ACC can do the same with only parts of the market. when you had UConn, Syracuse and Rutgers, you had the 3 largest pieces. Having a number of Michigan alumni, for example, doesn't automatically translate into a Michigan "market" of any significance, at least not compared to the more local teams that attract followers who are not solely old grads. UConn has Fairfield County fans (NY tv market) who follow them because they are Connecticut residents, not because they are UConn alumni. Same with Rutgers in New Joisey. My hunch is that there are far fewer locals who follow Michigan but aren't associated somehow with it. The one study I saw on this listed only 2 big schools with any significant fan base in New York. Penn State ranked 3rd, just ahead of UConn. Michigan ranked 5th just behind UConn. Ohio State ranked 9th. But in all cases the fan bases were pretty small...145,000 for Michigan, 60,000 for Ohio State. UConn had about 150,000 Penn State 185000. Rutgers was the largest with 600,000. the problem for Rutgers is their market ranges from jersey City to Camden. they have no fans to speak of outside New Jersey. In contrast Nebraska has 410000 fans in Linclon Nebraska which isn't even a Top 100 market. I suspect to a degree Penn State and Notre Dame break that mold a bit, though less than in past generations. Pat O'Neill from Bridgeport might have been an Irish fan back in the day, but Pat, Jr. went to UConn and is more likely a Husky fan today. As those immigrant generations move into history and their kids and grandkids go to college their allegiance to the Irish is replaced by their own alma maters, or the local pro team. Same with Penn State who for decades represented Eastern football at the national level. Not so much any more. Kids in northern Joisey don't have the same connection to the boys from Mount Nittany that those 20 years ago did. The Sandusky thing makes that even more the case. Bottom line here is that the ACC and the Big each grabbed a piece of the NY market,but it is going to be interesting to see if those pieces actually deliver much by themselves. I doubt it.

 

[SouthronCross]

A UConn, Cuse, BC pod would be better in bb and worse in football than a UConn, RU, BC pod. The reason is geography. A football stadium is harder to fill than a bb arena. Since all four programs are struggling the best way to develop these programs in tandem is to have good coaches, get good players and generate fan excitement. But you not only need people in the seats you need to establish a group of teams you love to hate. This is why UNC-Duke and NY-Red Sox works so well. Proximity geographically is the parameter I'm emphasizing. And I'm emphasizing the value of football over bb even though I'm slightly more a UConn bb fan than a Uconn football fan.

OK, gotcha. The BC-UConn-RU pod you mention would've fit better for football than the BC-UConn-Syracuse pod I've been speaking of. That would have the proximity and familiarity that make rivalries longlasting.

Kids in NY and NE are eating the same foods as Jersey and Penn. They basically come from the same range of livestock. The only difference between these two regions is cultural. So how does excitement get generated for football in these regions. A combination of increased success and exposure will develop these areas that are disinterested. And the best exposure would be to bring kids to the stadiums. If I were Cuse, BC and UConn I'd be getting kids from area hs's to watch games at the stadiums. I would give free tickets to various schools as an incentive. But I wouldn't do it until there is an exciting team on the field. It would mean a reduction in revenues but it would change the paradigm of disinterest.

Does either CT, MA, or NJ allow spring practice for HSFB? Down South, that is HUGE (NC does not allow spring practice, that I know of). And, during the summer, there are 7-on-7 passing camps and tournaments all over everywhere. Its wall-to-wall football year round. That drives local fan interest, and, keeps the sport front and center in fans' minds during the long off-season. The universities, especially in the SEC, already give tickets to HSFB coaches, and, those coaches take some of their kids along with them. That happened way back in my HS days, too. And, you are absolutely spot on about how something like we've both mentioned would change the level of interest in the sport for northeastern universities.

As far as my comment about UConn and Rutgers overtaking BC and Cuse its about the difficulties private schools are/will be having relative to the publics. I don't know much about RU but UConn has made incredible leaps with attracting better academic students. They are attracting the type of student that previously would go to schools like BC and Cuse. In other words UConn is eating into the supply chain of those schools. And that is what I meant by overtaking.

OK, I see where you're coming from now.

Sometimes, I just need it broken down for me is all...LOL.

 

[JayRU09]

Yes, there are spring football practices and 7 on 7 camps in the north.