B1G, ACC battle for New York

[Adios]

Oh great, another argument between fans of two teams that are not UConn on our board.

They love us. That's the best sign we have of our future.

 

[NickyNewark]

Nicky I'm happy Rutgers found a home, but until such time as Rutgers shows themselves to be great at anything for a number of years, you need to be a little less of an a* . UConn is ten times the school Rutgers ever hopes of being, and I expect to see them in the ACC within 2 years. In September of 2011 the ACC moved, in September of 2012 the ACC moved, the Big 10 then reacted by picking 2 schools that were losing money. If your 2 schools have such a high rate of fans, you should have been able to balance your budgets, which were less then Syracuse and UConn, but apparently the fan money isn't there. Your school has a great opportunity, just as it had when you came into the original Big East football conference, don't blow it again. I would like to see Rutgers do well, it makes the east look better, Penn St made a lot of money, but before they joined the big 10 they were winning National Championships, since they hardly win Big 10 championships. It would have been better in 1980 if Rutgers, rather then Seton Hall had joined the Big East, we would have gotten enough votes, by having the football schools threaten to leave if they didn't vote Penn St in. Good Luck In the Big 10, I'd much rather eastern schools were all in one conference, but we'll see you in a bowl game, maybe the Orange Bowl, would be great for Eastern Football.

Whats any of this got to do with RU getting into the big and having better and better recruiting classes every year as the momentum builds?Who says any school is 10 times better than RU?If they are whats all this concern and anxiety about RU's great opportunity?Can you smell the fear of a waking giant?Were doing something right as it looks like a scared ACC fan fest is making the rounds trying to "win over the east" on all the relevant boards!(PSU,SU,L'ville) is coming out of NC and Va on a propaganda tour that can't stop RU's momentum and any school who's 10 times better should put there application in to the SEC if its true!Like Swoffy if you guys played like your recruiting classes(FSU,UM,CU) you'd be scary and the rest is old BE filler!What black hole does all that talent fall into?The ACC is too erratic to worry about in FB and its good to see all this RU anxiety as if they were truly irrelevant you would'nt even bother!Seems like a lot of handwringing going on somewhere in ACC land over something that if true would be beneath them?Temple? Really?Let UConn in and I wouldn't even be here...if they'll have you?They got a raw deal but no one in todays landscape is even 2 times better than anyone else so how much more BS are you gonna throw at the wall w/o looking stupid?

 

[NickyNewark]

I've never said UNC was some kind of FB power. I know we are an average program. And, this is the first time our FB program has ever been in trouble with the NCAA.

Yes, RU's had a very good decade, and, we have not. Thats not debateable. Yet, we've won the last three games we've played vs RU. All played in that same decade, including two at your place. One, a 44-12 beatdown that we've since vacated as part of our NCAA punishment.

Just look up the records for the two schools, and, tell me what you find.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_ia_team_index.php

You mean that last game where we scored 3 times from the goal line and didn't get the call?If you think you won that game(stole it) then you believe SU beat Akron too on that "missed xtra pt"!When was that last game?"05" or "06"?IIRC that was(1 or 2 pts)the margin of victory and before that we were just bad as Schiano had to clear it out and build it on a rock foundation instead of stilts like most johnny come latelys do and you can see now the fruits of that labor JUST STARTING to pay dividends!When Schiano left everyone thought RU's top 25 recruiting class would collapse?Didn't happen despite the talking heads popular opinion and KF is still building on that and many B1G posters have been on RU's boards giving there congratulations(nice to be associated with that type of classy conference mates) esp from OSU,PSU and Michigan unlike that crab-barrel of the ACC !Thats what happens when youre in with a decent bunch of peer schools....they pull FOR each other not tear each other to shreds(vulture)!Have a little confidence even though the network wouldn't be worth it to your bosses(ESPin)...thats why they threw you a little bone!All that energy and concern over RU?I guess we've arrived. ... @check out this years recruiting haul up to now with #1 RB in NJ 3/4* Jonathan Hilliman from SPP,JC,NJ supposedly commiting at 430 this afternoon to RU over OSU! Another top 20 class from an irrelevant school? RU rising but not forgetting our brother school who was given the old ACC "Oh well,they'll still be there when we need them" spiel when everyone assumed they were next in line for an ACC bid !Again they raise the bar?

 

[NickyNewark]

Oh great, another argument between fans of two teams that are not UConn on our board.

Its an invasion (organized by tobacco road) of ACC fans on a RU smear campaign and I didn't realize it until I saw it on an RU board that they've been making a "damage control" tour of former BE boards and PSU's looking to raise disenscion and repair friendships by using divisive psychological tactics on susceptable and weakened fanbases!The old "divide and conquer techniques of Tsu's "Art of War" thinking were stupid yanks and it might just work knowing how badly they damaged relations with us (UConn) by picking "relevent L'ville" over us knowing what it would do to our FB program!I smell BC/SU behind some of this?SU more than BC as SU's demise coincided with our rise and they can't pull recruits from NY/NJ anymore and it drives them crazy!

 

[billybud]

I wonder why it is "the shore" in Jersey?

Nobody in the south goes to the shore....we go to the beach.

 

[The Funster]

If you can find that quote somewhere I would appreciate it. I have stated here numerous times that Gene D. was not liked by the B.C. fan base, and that is being kind. He had very little support from alums and fans who found him to be turning a deaf ear to the masses. Aloof, non responsive, and arrogant are words that come to my mind that were spoken on many BC blogs and sites. Gaining A.C.C. membership was his most important contribution to BC.

That being said, I am hoping for a thaw at some point soon so BC and U Conn can resume playing football. Great for New England and the entire region. At least we will meet in bb this year, I think in soccer and perhaps field hockey as well, not sure have not looked at schedules. Hockey East membership for U Conn is a great way to play BC on a regular basis every year. Thats a good start, who knows perhaps bb will follow suit and ink a series contract. In my opinion shame on the Presidents and Politicians, Athletics Directors and Coaches who ended up deciding for the fans and alums that disconnecting the two schools athletically was in our best interest. They should take steps immediately to restore relations and put this cold war to bed once and for all.

Absolutely agree. And I find the ACC appealing because of the rivalry factor. I think BC and UConn playing annually is a win/win.

 

[NickyNewark]

I wonder why it is "the shore" in Jersey?

Nobody in the south goes to the shore....we go to the beach.

Because at lands end you get to the sand and shoreline but beach implies recreation and fun which does sound nicer !

 

[NickyNewark]

Absolutely agree. And I find the ACC appealing because of the rivalry factor. I think BC and UConn playing annually is a win/win.

I don't understand how the BC AD can't see the rivalry is necessary to stimulate local interest on both sides?Thats what FB is really all about..local pride and ability to actually get to go to the games!

 

[billybud]

There are interesting dynamics in conference realignment....

Much of fan interest is geography based. Heated rivalries usually involve several ingredients...

1...Relative proximity....... Adjacent states, same state...games like Alabama-Auburn, Ohio St.-Michigan, FSU-Miami, Texas-Oklahoma, Pitt-WVU, Fla-Georgia, etc.

2...Relative parity .....If one team is 19-2 vs another (like FSU-Maryland) hard to get worked up into a rivalry mode.

3...The game means something...regularly playing a program for the division title, conference title, state bragging rights, etc.

Rivalries are not easy to come by....23 years into the ACC and FSU is just now building its only rivalry (Miami existed before ACC). The Clemson game is a budding rivalry.


I think that it is difficult for fans of schools separated as far as New England and Florida are, to build real rivalries. The beauty of the SEC is its compactness. On any given fall saturday, caravans of fans, flags flying, move across the southeast on their way to an opponent's stadium.

 

[NickyNewark]

Swoffy is not the best commish, but, he's not totally stupid, either. His paramount goal a year ago was to save his league from potentially being torn completely apart. He succeeded. What his next move might be, I haven't a clue.

RU have had the resources of the state behind them for decades now, and, where has it gotten them? Unless they produce competitive teams in the B1G, what difference will it make? Fans will not show up if they don't produce once they get there. All of the incoming revenue will be nice, but, it they don't win, then what?

Swoffy has a vision for the league, and, just like you, I have no idea on earth what it might be. There were times I thought I could see it, but, I eventually gave up trying.

Truth be told, when last summer's CR talk began, I wanted UNC and UVA to tell the league where to go, and, jump to the SEC. But, the UNC BOGs were not going to let that happen, at least without finding NCSU a solid landing spot. Plus, I was not sold that UVA's Board of Visitors would agree to that, either.

If you know anything at all about RU/NJ politics you would know that untill Mulcahy came in RU did not have or get the resourses necessary to do what they've done since he hired GS in "00/01"?NOT DECADES or Doug Graber might have been able to get it going as hes said when announcing some RU games!He proudly stated he'd like to take the credit due Schiano but knew due to lack of resourses/support he couldn't!We've had exactly 11 or 12 years and still growing who anyone in touch could obviously see!Ive watched RU FB since the late 60s and early 70s and never felt so sure of anything as I do that were on our way and nothing can stop the momentum as RU has become a popular place with in and out of state kids which never used to be the case!People can hate all they want but those in the know see the writing on the wall !!

 

[NickyNewark]

If you know anything at all about RU/NJ politics you would know that untill Mulcahy came in RU did not have or get the resourses necessary to do what they've done since he hired GS in "00/01"?NOT DECADES or Doug Graber might have been able to get it going as hes said when announcing some RU games!He proudly stated he'd like to take the credit due Schiano but knew due to lack of resourses/support he couldn't!We've had exactly 11 or 12 years and still growing who anyone in touch could obviously see!Ive watched RU FB since the late 60s and early 70s and never felt so sure of anything as I do that were on our way and nothing can stop the momentum as RU has become a popular place with in and out of state kids which never used to be the case!People can hate all they want but those in the know see the writing on the wall !!

RU and L'ville led the BE in attendence per game with 49+G and as "popular as the "U" is they can't draw flies to a game!I saw a photo of a UM home game last year where they claimed 300 ..yes hundred?Alls u could see were rows and rows of empty seats?BC not much better and "Cuse"?Their lucky to get 30G to come to the dome!How many fans do you think will come to see OSU?Mich?PSU?Neb?Wisc?...even if RU loses they'll get 35G plus with that many big dogs and there local fanbases those seats WILL BE FILLED!I'd imagine 54G seats will have to be expanded by 13/15G very soon!

 

[NickyNewark]

I was thinking the same thing and don't think the troll's aren't FULLY aware and ATTRACTED by the title!!

 

[NickyNewark]

Good grief, it has devolved into a 'I know you are, but, what am I' conversation.

When you stick to the subject going forward, we can talk then.

Maybe I was a little impulsive on that one.

 

[billybud]

Rutgers hasn't really yet resonated as a football program in the deep south...

2001-2012, Rutgers has won a little less than 40% of their Big East games. Has won 11% of games with teams that were ranked at the end of the year (AP/Coaches).

 

[billybud]

But....Rutgers bowl record is enviable.....

 

[NickyNewark]

There are interesting dynamics in conference realignment....

Much of fan interest is geography based. Heated rivalries usually involve several ingredients...

1...Relative proximity....... Adjacent states, same state...games like Alabama-Auburn, Ohio St.-Michigan, FSU-Miami, Texas-Oklahoma, Pitt-WVU, Fla-Georgia, etc.

2...Relative parity .....If one team is 19-2 vs another (like FSU-Maryland) hard to get worked up into a rivalry mode.

3...The game means something...regularly playing a program for the division title, conference title, state bragging rights, etc.

Rivalries are not easy to come by....23 years into the ACC and FSU is just now building its only rivalry (Miami existed before ACC). The Clemson game is a budding rivalry.


I think that it is difficult for fans of schools separated as far as New England and Florida are, to build real rivalries. The beauty of the SEC is its compactness. On any given fall saturday, caravans of fans, flags flying, move across the southeast on their way to an opponent's stadium.

Very good sensible post and very true but the infusion of dollars(greed) is ruining everything (most) of what your saying by the breakup of the regionality of CFB and trying a sort of NFL model which is good for the NFL but not so good for what made CFB unique!I always enjoyed the state or regional pride aspect of CFB and the once a year bragging rights that went with it.I would like to play PSU,UConn,SU.Temple,Pitt and BC every year but after "03" greed took over and the word CR became a cloud over everything I loved about CFB!! Now every rumor takes on a life of its own and the band played on....Uh Oh here comes the music!!

 

[NickyNewark]

Rutgers hasn't really yet resonated as a football program in the deep south...

2001-2012, Rutgers has won a little less than 40% of their Big East games. Has won 11% of games with teams that were ranked at the end of the year (AP/Coaches).

Billy Ive seen your handle before numerous times b4??Aren't you on the SU boards?@yes but they've won 75%+ since "06"!!8 bowls in 9 seasons!RU has resonated better than SU who waits for recruits in hopes RU don't take them like Hallman and Ish Witter who both put Cuse on hold hoping RU has room for them and Witter still don't like Cuse as hes eyeing Mizzou now!

 

[NickyNewark]

Billy Ive seen your handle before numerous times b4??Aren't you on the SU boards?@yes but they've won 75%+ since "06"!!8 bowls in 9 seasons!RU has resonated better than SU who waits for recruits in hopes RU don't take them like Hallman and Ish Witter who both put Cuse on hold hoping RU has room for them and Witter still don't like Cuse as hes eyeing Mizzou now!

Lifetime RU has an .520 winning percentage but you'd think it was .400% by the way "certain" schools try to paint it !!And they've played around 1300 games?1869 in the 1st game!RU has been here longer than we've been a nation!

 

[NickyNewark]

I'm going to Jersey City to watch St Peters Prep's practice as the #1 RB in NJ is going to commit today to either OSU or RU and I want to see him...Jonathan Hilliman 6'1" 220 and record it as the big dogs are starting to stay home to play in the B1G!!Exciting times we live in after years of dissapointment until Mulcahy and Schiano took the reigns!Pernetti/Herman and Flood are still building on a rock foundation slowly rather than (short term/JUCO) stilts!!

 

[billybud]

Billy Ive seen your handle before numerous times b4??Aren't you on the SU boards?@yes but they've won 75%+ since "06"!!8 bowls in 9 seasons!RU has resonated better than SU who waits for recruits in hopes RU don't take them like Hallman and Ish Witter who both put Cuse on hold hoping RU has room for them and Witter still don't like Cuse as hes eyeing Mizzou now!

I have never been on a Cuse board...I have posted 13,000 plus posts over the last 10 years on the WVU board where you may have seen my handle.

My home board is FSU's Warchant. Syracuse and Rutgers might as well be as far away as the frozen tundra of Siberia to the average north Florida Seminole fan. We are very much attuned to what is going on in the SEC. Tallahassee's northern city limit is 16 miles from the Georgia line and about 50 miles to the Alabama border. Many of our families migrated to north Florida from Georgia and Alabama. I was born in Alabama (my birth certificate registers me as a Bama fan). You are registered at birth as an Auburn or Bama guy.

I was raised in Pensacola, went to school at FSU and Wisconsin and have lived in Tallahassee for decades.

I don't know what to make of the ACC any more. When you have teams that are spread from near the Canadian border to just an inner tube ride from Cuba, it just makes no geographic sense for fans. I have no feeling one way or another about Syracuse...I only know that the legendary Jim Brown played for them.

 

[Pudge]

There you go ... two Know-nothings debating on a UConn board.

Rutgers? I have not been paying attention to Rutgers for too long. It was a mere few years ago that I went to a Syracuse v Rutgers game in Piscataway and about 18,000 people attended. My belief is that Rutgers, Schiano and Co. did a wonderful job upgrading that Program ... but it can sink into irrelevance easily. It's not thick passion. It's a bunch of yahoos. Their success? Gained playing Norfolk State and Howard. They slimed their way along and never won a title. In most all sports, they don't have any semblance of winning. No championships in either Conference play or on a National level.

Syracuse is Jim Brown. And Ernie Davis. And their long time coach in the 50s/60s and their Old Coach Mac in the 80s. PP had a good decade. But, they have NO future. Central NY is a wasteland with NO market. We in Albany know that they are way down our interest level ... and that dissipates far more into NYC and metropolitan surroundings. It is a Brand where the Townies of a small dying Upstate NY city live. Their Alums don't stay there.

Two Programs that barely deserve this P5 status.

And UCONN ... where you are ... a small State school. Of course. With a Brand. But a history of Excellence. Men's BB and (of course) the dynasty in WBB. A growing program in Football. Championship caliber sports across the board in Baseball, Soccer (both), etc. We will be good at the highest echelon of Hockey. We do things absolutely right ... across many sports and academically we have climbed incredibly (Florida State guy you can leave the discussion at this point). I'd say we have been repeatedly screwed by Administrations that should have been our partners. We will find our niche. But ... damn ... Rutgers? Syracuse? Pitt? BC? I'd give Rutgers a chance at a good future. The others????

 

[Sea Goat]

I have never been on a Cuse board...I have posted 13,000 plus posts over the last 10 years on the WVU board where you may have seen my handle.

My home board is FSU's Warchant. Syracuse and Rutgers might as well be as far away as the frozen tundra of Siberia to the average north Florida Seminole fan. We are very much attuned to what is going on in the SEC. Tallahassee's northern city limit is 16 miles from the Georgia line and about 50 miles to the Alabama border. Many of our families migrated to north Florida from Georgia and Alabama. I was born in Alabama (my birth certificate registers me as a Bama fan). You are registered at birth as an Auburn or Bama guy.

I was raised in Pensacola, went to school at FSU and Wisconsin and have lived in Tallahassee for decades.

I don't know what to make of the ACC any more. When you have teams that are spread from near the Canadian border to just an inner tube ride from Cuba, it just makes no geographic sense for fans. I have no feeling one way or another about Syracuse...I only know that the legendary Jim Brown played for them.

Yup, Jim Brown played for them - 58 years ago! Let's talk about the old Ivy League when it was a national power!

The bigger issue is what did the ACC actually gain by the flurry of CR activity? 2 former BE schools (Pitt and Syracuse) that are decent schools which bring pretty good hoops to the ACC, but, in football, are no better than UConn after it's been in D-1 for only 9 yrs, a prima donna (ND) as a part time member that really calls its own shots in football matters and, finally, a school, which is currently strong in football and hoops, but can only barely graduate 50% of its students in 6 years!

While this still results in the ACC being much better than our gulag, what will the long term success of the ACC be? If it is one of the P-5 conferences, it is the weakest. I would rate the B1G, the SEC, the Big-12 and the Pac-12 ahead of it on all fronts.

For UConn, let's hope the B1G calls !

 

[ctchamps]

I still believe a northest pod of UConn-Syracuse-BC would have been a boon for the league. Maybe it still will e.

I totally see your point concerning RU (I am already sold on UConn joining the ACC). Swofford might agree with you, too. But, selling what RU offers, and, then getting the ACC members to vote them in, is another thing altogether.

A UConn, Cuse, BC pod would be better in bb and worse in football than a UConn, RU, BC pod. The reason is geography. A football stadium is harder to fill than a bb arena. Since all four programs are struggling the best way to develop these programs in tandem is to have good coaches, get good players and generate fan excitement. But you not only need people in the seats you need to establish a group of teams you love to hate. This is why UNC-Duke and NY-Red Sox works so well. Proximity geographically is the parameter I'm emphasizing. And I'm emphasizing the value of football over bb even though I'm slightly more a UConn bb fan than a Uconn football fan.

Kids in NY and NE are eating the same foods as Jersey and Penn. They basically come from the same range of livestock. The only difference between these two regions is cultural. So how does excitement get generated for football in these regions. A combination of increased success and exposure will develop these areas that are disinterested. And the best exposure would be to bring kids to the stadiums. If I were Cuse, BC and UConn I'd be getting kids from area hs's to watch games at the stadiums. I would give free tickets to various schools as an incentive. But I wouldn't do it until there is an exciting team on the field. It would mean a reduction in revenues but it would change the paradigm of disinterest.

As far as my comment about UConn and Rutgers overtaking BC and Cuse its about the difficulties private schools are/will be having relative to the publics. I don't know much about RU but UConn has made incredible leaps with attracting better academic students. They are attracting the type of student that previously would go to schools like BC and Cuse. In other words UConn is eating into the supply chain of those schools. And that is what I meant by overtaking.

 

[btstimpy]

There are interesting dynamics in conference realignment....

Much of fan interest is geography based. Heated rivalries usually involve several ingredients...

1...Relative proximity....... Adjacent states, same state...games like Alabama-Auburn, Ohio St.-Michigan, FSU-Miami, Texas-Oklahoma, Pitt-WVU, Fla-Georgia, etc.

2...Relative parity .....If one team is 19-2 vs another (like FSU-Maryland) hard to get worked up into a rivalry mode.

3...The game means something...regularly playing a program for the division title, conference title, state bragging rights, etc.

Rivalries are not easy to come by....23 years into the ACC and FSU is just now building its only rivalry (Miami existed before ACC). The Clemson game is a budding rivalry.


I think that it is difficult for fans of schools separated as far as New England and Florida are, to build real rivalries. The beauty of the SEC is its compactness. On any given fall saturday, caravans of fans, flags flying, move across the southeast on their way to an opponent's stadium.

I hear what you are saying, but somehow I don't see the SEC as compact. It's 1000 miles between Gainsville, FL and Columbia, MO for a SEC East game. It's 900 miles between Columbia, SC and Columbia, MO. You must be thinking Auburn vs Alabama. That is compact, but so is UNC vs NCState and UVA-VT. I think that if the ACC were to get to 16 teams, it could reorganize the division for more regional competition. I'm glad Clemson has elevated its game enough to make the FSU-Clemson games fun for fans.

BC should support UConn's membership for just this very point of proximity.

 

[ctchamps]

You hit the nail right on the head with the word 'if.' I am more sold on the idea of UConn getting up to the next level than I am on RU. They've been smack in the middle of a top-flight rcruiting ground for HS sports, but, they've never taken advantage of it. Being in the B1G is no doubt a positive, but, it hasn't helped the likes of Minnesota, Illinois, Indiana, or, Purdue over the long term. Maybe they will be different, but, until they do, I will be a skeptic. Just like I am a skeptic of my own team.

I don't know anything about Florida but my guess would be you are correct and that state would swing according to the relative success of FSU and Florida. But I live in South Carolina and have watched SC Clemson games in many parts of the state at sports bars. The ratio of fans is between 70-80% USC over Clemson at the sports bars which is consistent with what people keep telling me when I do my informal survey of how the state trends.

What is unique about the 20-30% fans in SC that support Clemson is that they are every bit as passionate as the majority of fans supporting the USC teams. They don't have any sense of inferiority and, by their stadium numbers, back up their passion by placing people in the seats.

My uneducated understanding of the support ratio being what it is has less to do about success than about the cultural attitude and demographics of the state. USC is perceived by the average South Carolinian as the every man's university. Clemson is perceive as being more elite. And SC is still in a rebellious cultural attitude towards anything elite and the GDP in the state is in the last percentile of the U.S.

In another post I felt the ACC had the markets of NC, Virginia, Md and Fl if the ACC teams in Florida did better than the SEC team. The rest of the markets were SEC. Three and one half states does not make a case for developing an ACC network especially since the most important 1/2, Florida, is whimsical. And this is why many of us in this forum are relating to you and @bstimpy the mistakes Swofford and the ACC have made by not taking UConn and Rutgers. The ACC could have ultimately, if RU, UConn and BC improve a modicum in football and do some of the things I pointed out in the other post, get NJ, most of the populous areas of NY, and NE. I would have added RU and UConn first and then considered Syracuse to shore up NY.

But the ACC wet for the sexy short term fix instead of the smarter long term fix.