B1G, ACC battle for New York

[btstimpy]

You seem like a good dude, but you're putting whatever credibility you have in jeopardy by comparing Temple to Maryland.

You're outta your freakin' mind if you think Temple replaces even 1/10th of what the ACC lost when Maryland bolted. There's a reason the Big East waited until its boat sank and its lifeboat was sinking before giving Temple the invite.

What is the reason? Temple is a larger public school than Maryland with over 200,000 living alumni and 38,000 students. They field consistently good basketball teams. They knocked off NCState in last year's NCAA tournament. Duke went to Philly to play Temple in basketball a couple of years ago and got their fannies whipped. Maryland would have a hard time winning basketball games there.

Maryland got their fannies whipped by Temple 38-7 in football in College Park, MD two years ago, and barely beat Temple last season. Temple averages about 25,000 for football games attendance wise. Maryland averages about 32000. Temple spends about $30 million a year on athletics and doesn't lose a ton of money. Maryland spends about $60 million and loses $10 million. ACC TV money could help close some of this gap.

The Big East never wanted Temple because Villanova blackballed Temple in basketball. They took them in football only mode once in the 90s, and Temple didn't support the football program well enough when they played at the Vet. So the Big East football conference kicked them out. Temple supports it better now.

There is no doubt that I'd rather have Penn State or UConn, but we're talking about the Mid-Atlantic market. You must have a higher opinion of Maryland's value than I do. And I come from a school that's played Maryland in 75 football games and 175 basketball games.

 

[upstater]

Speaking of Maryland.....Would like to pass along that I found a very interesting article in today's Washington Post sports section on the dire economic situation that they face at this time. They will make money at some point but most likely not until 2021 at the earliest. Some low points include......

1. 21 million dollar deficit and borrowing another 20million for this year.
2. 85 million owed in construction debt.
3. 15 million dollar membership payment to Maryland being withheld by A.C.C. until the lawsuit comes to a conclusion.( How much will that be)

Some interesting notes on travel burden... and the cost to pay/care for each athlete that the big demands each member school must adhere to, and so on.

THIS IS A MUST READ. In the end Maryland will make money but at what cost? Remember the days when the game on the field was most important?...... and now its the $$game being played behind closed doors that trumps all. College Football is the most exciting, colorful, action packed sport that exists... in my opinion. What a sad state of affairs.

Maryland is simply being honest. $85 million in construction debt? That's peanuts. Those numbers don't show up on the AD side. Most schools bury their hundreds of millions in construction debt on the academic side.

 

[btstimpy]

I knew this day would come. Just came much quicker than I ever imagined. How about ECU? They going to the SEC? Taking in ODU?

If the SEC wants the North Carolina and Virginia markets, it's a way to do it. Who knows?

 

[SouthronCross]

The geography is everything. I'm buying China over Italy. I don't care about the Roman Empire. Wonderful story whose time has passed. Modern day Italy will survive. So will Cuse and BC. But the publics like Rutgers and UConn will overtake Cuse and BC in the near future.

I am guessing that by 'overtaken,' you are referring t more than just athletics. If so, what gives the belief that RU and UConn will overtake SU and BC?

I don't believe Rutgers or UConn will rise to the level of Alabama or LSU or Ohio State. But they have a better potential to reach the level of Wisconsin than the privates.

I agree that both of you can reach the level of a Wisconsin, given the right HC hire, and, good recruiting. Why is it that the present and near future will see this happening? Weren't a lot of the same things impotant for development...population, access to recruiting grounds, relationships with HS coaches...in place before?

What I project is that the northeast (outside of Penn.) is a sleeping tiger that with the right moves, could in every way, develop huge fan bases for football. It isn't really about recruiting grounds that Delaney has taken Rutgers. It's about potential fans and thus viewership and thus dollars and thus further separation from the ACC.

The northeast is a potential uptapped goldmine for talent. Why is it that just PA and NJ HSFB have been able to produce a lot of top flight talent, while NY State has not? Is hoops a bigger draw than football at the HS level there? Do you see that changing?

If the ACC had more vision they would have beaten Delaney to the punch. They could have taken UConn and Rutgers and Maryland would have been marginalized in the eyes of the B!G.

We know UConn was in the ACC's expansion plans in 2011. But, that unfortuately got derailed by a football-first schools pushback against them. If RU was in the ACC's plans, I am not sure I ever heard it. Swofford plays a lot of things close to the vest. Maybe RU was in his plans. I don't have a clue.

The funny thing is Rutgers and UConn would have kept BC relevant for a much longer time than I expect will happen without them.

I still believe a northest pod of UConn-Syracuse-BC would have been a boon for the league. Maybe it still will e.

I totally see your point concerning RU (I am already sold on UConn joining the ACC). Swofford might agree with you, too. But, selling what RU offers, and, then getting the ACC members to vote them in, is another thing altogether.

 

[SouthronCross]

Not disparaging in any way. I wish UConn had BC's problems.

I didn't mean you. I meant on a national basis. If we can win more of those big OOC games, the talk will slow down, and, then stop.

But relative to the PAC, B!G and SEC the ACC will most likely fall further behind in terms of revenues even if it does begin winning because they only control two strong markets. The best hope is for FSU to dominate and win several NCs in football. That could get people in Fl. to view the ACC instead of the SEC. Outside of that the ACC will basically stay at a level below the other three.

The look-ins provided in the ACC's contract with ESPN provides the ACC with the opportunity to get its deal redone. Its all on our members now to win. We have no excuses.

The one thing that I believe people totally get wrong is how well an ACCN would play in places like SC and FL. Yes, South Carolina and Florida cast large shadows over their states, but, to think that nobody in those states care about FSU and Clemson is a complete fallacy. Those states are A LOT closer to 50-50 than folks outside of this region tend to think. Georgia and Kentucky are 90 percent owned by UGA and UK, so, our network would be a tough sell there. All that said, I am not kidding myself about how tough even getting a network going now will be.

The push to get Rutgers and UConn would have been the riskier move but if they could develop to the next level in football that would have been another way that the ACC could have generated more numbers of viewers. The play in the northeast is to generate a greater interest in college football. It lags the rest of the country and it has a huge population of untapped fans. I'm saying Rutgers and UConn was the better play to get that untapped source than Cuse and Pitt. I don't have any more allegiance to Rutgers than BC, Cuse or Pitt. Its just how I'm assessing things.

You hit the nail right on the head with the word 'if.' I am more sold on the idea of UConn getting up to the next level than I am on RU. They've been smack in the middle of a top-flight rcruiting ground for HS sports, but, they've never taken advantage of it. Being in the B1G is no doubt a positive, but, it hasn't helped the likes of Minnesota, Illinois, Indiana, or, Purdue over the long term. Maybe they will be different, but, until they do, I will be a skeptic. Just like I am a skeptic of my own team.

 

[NickyNewark]

Kinda like the Big Ten adding Rutgers.

Temple was only in the MAC for football. How did they do in the Atlantic 10? I could see Philly forgetting who Villanova is if Temple started playing an ACC basketball schedule and winning. Yes they have work to do in football, but don't expect Maryland or Rutgers to win the Big Ten East football title for a while either.

No,more like the ACC trying for NY with a Finger Lakes district team!How long can SUFB tout Jim Brown?Just watching where the kids go following recruiting shows whose relevent and whose not!Outside of 2 or 3 ACC teams in CFB and market RU trumps schools like Wake,Duke,Va,SU, NCSt and Md!I see going across the PSU,L'ville,SU and all local boards NC and some ACC teams are trying an RU smear campaign...check RU rivals board...whats up with that?

 

[NickyNewark]

I know what would happen. Philadelphia would become an ACC basketball town. There would need to be work on the football side, but the Big Ten is going to find hard work in Maryland and Rutgers too in football. They are going to find hard work in everything when it comes to Rutgers.

We've been talking markets here. Someone just pointed that out above regarding Louisville. In Louisville, the ACC added the Sugar Bowl and NCAA Men's Basketball Champion. When we discuss that, people tell me it's a small market. Philly is a bigger market than Louisville is it not?

StimpyCuse!!

 

[NickyNewark]

I still believe a northest pod of UConn-Syracuse-BC would have been a boon for the league. Maybe it still will e.

I totally see your point concerning RU (I am already sold on UConn joining the ACC). Swofford might agree with you, too. But, selling what RU offers, and, then getting the ACC members to vote them in, is another thing altogether.

And thats just the reason the ACC is constantly outwitted and embarressed by the B1G!!

 

[Fishy]

The ACC can restore the Mid-Atlantic by adding Temple if the ACC thinks it needs the Mid-Atlantic....

Ah, no.

As an athletic institution, Rutgers is an abortion. Temple aspires to be Rutgers.

You just cannot replace Maryland's market with Temple.

 

[SouthronCross]

Whats an ACC FB title worth?Uh OH I think W.Va just scored again!!Can you say over rated?........@I live in Cos Cob whats your deal?Why would I as an RU fan have to kiss anyones ?Im here cause Im an eastern FB fan but I find you with a guilt complex knowing your conference made DUMB moves or just a common T.

See, throwing out what WVU did to Clemson shows you, as a RU fan, have to drag on another team's major accomplishments in order to try and talk trash, because you have none of your own to draw from. I am not surprised.

Whats an ACC FB title worth? If its champion finishes as one of two undefeated teams at the end of the regular season, it WILL play for the BCS title. That even after a horrible decade plus in FB, this league still has a seat at the big boy table. We are still involved. Thats all you need to know.

I have zero guilt complex about what John Swofford has done. He did what he thought necessary to save his league. Do I agree with everything thats transpied? No, not at all. But, those are not my calls. Nor, his alone.

What I DO find fascinating is that it bothers you so much.

 

[SouthronCross]

Wow "denial is a river in Egypt"?How unique and original !!

No need to waste anything original on you. You'd just deflect, and, accuse me of being a Syracuse fan again...LOL.

 

[NickyNewark]

It would be primarily a basketball move done to get the ACC Network on the air in that market. That's all. I'm not advocating that Temple football will light the world on fire in Philadelphia. I looked at their attendance last season for football. It averaged around 25,000. That looks sparse in a 69,000 seat stadium. There is room for improvement there. Maybe they will improve in the AAC.

Light the world on fire?RU was shocked they outnumbered Temple fans in Philly 5-1!You've lost any credibility with that silliness!

 

[NickyNewark]

No need to waste anything original on you. You'd just deflect, and, accuse me of being a Syracuse fan again...LOL.

No your even less....your a troll!!

 

[NickyNewark]

See, throwing out what WVU did to Clemson shows you, as a RU fan, have to drag on another team's major accomplishments in order to try and talk trash, because you have none of your own to draw from. I am not surprised.

Whats an ACC FB title worth? If its champion finishes as one of two undefeated teams at the end of the regular season, it WILL play for the BCS title. That even after a horrible decade plus in FB, this league still has a seat at the big boy table. We are still involved. Thats all you need to know.

I have zero guilt complex about what John Swofford has done. He did what he thought necessary to save his league. Do I agree with everything thats transpied? No, not at all. But, those are not my calls. Nor, his alone.

What I DO find fascinating is that it bothers you so much.

What has UNC ever accomplished even with cheating in FB?RU has been to 8 bowls in 9 years...I know nothing major but better than a middling FB team in the weakest "power" conference!

 

[NickyNewark]

What has UNC ever accomplished even with cheating in FB?RU has been to 8 bowls in 9 years...I know nothing major but better than a middling FB team in the weakest "power" conference!

But not as involved as the B1G!!

 

[BoatShow]

Oh great, another argument between fans of two teams that are not UConn on our board.

 

[baggerbob]

And thats just the reason the ACC is constantly outwitted and embarressed by the B1G!!

Nicky I'm happy Rutgers found a home, but until such time as Rutgers shows themselves to be great at anything for a number of years, you need to be a little less of an a**. UConn is ten times the school Rutgers ever hopes of being, and I expect to see them in the ACC within 2 years. In September of 2011 the ACC moved, in September of 2012 the ACC moved, the Big 10 then reacted by picking 2 schools that were losing money. If your 2 schools have such a high rate of fans, you should have been able to balance your budgets, which were less then Syracuse and UConn, but apparently the fan money isn't there. Your school has a great opportunity, just as it had when you came into the original Big East football conference, don't blow it again. I would like to see Rutgers do well, it makes the east look better, Penn St made a lot of money, but before they joined the big 10 they were winning National Championships, since they hardly win Big 10 championships. It would have been better in 1980 if Rutgers, rather then Seton Hall had joined the Big East, we would have gotten enough votes, by having the football schools threaten to leave if they didn't vote Penn St in. Good Luck In the Big 10, I'd much rather eastern schools were all in one conference, but we'll see you in a bowl game, maybe the Orange Bowl, would be great for Eastern Football.

 

[SouthronCross]

The major reason I give the ACC grief is Swofford. Hell, truth be told, I've got College Park roots myself (not that those will be relevant to the ACC much longer). Going back to the first Big East raid, here's what has happened (to the best of my memory):

PAC - added Colorado and Utah.
SEC - added TAMU and Missouri.
B1G - added Nebraska, Maryland, and Rutgers.
B12 - added WVU and TCU. Lost Colorado, Nebraska, Missouri, Texas A&M.
ACC - added BCU, VaTech, Miami, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville. Partially added ND. Lost Maryland.

Can you spot the elephant in that living room? I don't mean the conference, I mean the type of school being added (or lost). PAC adds two state flagships. SEC adds two state flagships (OK, TAMU might not be a flagship but Texas is really big and A&M is damn close). B1G adds three flagships. B12 adds a flagship but loses 4. ACC adds no flagships and loses 1. Conference membership now stands as follows:

PAC - Seven flagships (I'm considering Cal and UCLA flagships for the same reason I feel TAMU is), three state #2 publics, and two privates.
SEC - Eleven flagships, two state #2 publics, and one private.
B1G - Eleven flagships, two state #2 publics, and one private.
B12 - Four flagships, three state #2 publics, Texas Tech, and two privates.
ACC - Two flagships, seven state #2 publics, and five-and-a-half privates.

Swofford may have been hamstrung (as far as adding UConn and Rutgers rather than Pitt and Cuse) to a degree by the "football" schools but its his JOB to overcome those objections by presenting a clear and compelling vision for the conference. And I swear that guy's eyesight is 20/ten trillion.

NOTHING Swofford told the FB-first schools was going to change their minds. They did not want to hear 'potential' or any other adjective that might've swayed them on UConn-RU. They wanted a school who was successful NOW, and, UL could not have picked a better time to have an 11-2 season. Can they sustain it that? We'll see.

Swofford is a secretive, i.e., sneaky, little bastard. His first Big East raid was done so much under cover of darkness it made me wonder if he also planned the Colts escape from Baltimore. I think his current problems holding the conference together can be traced directly to that raid (not entirely cause he's sure as exacerbated things since). The best acquisition in that first raid, VaTech, fell into his lap because the Virginia legislature had better sense than he did.

The 2003 expansion was not his finest hour, but, BE schools coming to the ACC was not an entirely new idea, nor, was it even his. You can thank your former commish, Mike Tranghese, for that. He even floated the idea to Swofford as far back as 1999.

Given The Swoff's inability to identify quality recruits for the conference is it any wonder the football's told him to sit down and stfu when the desire to replace Maryland arose. Louisville was the small minded. The move of a tactician, not a strategist. Is that have kept them ahead of the B12 in the race to the bottom? Maybe, but so what?

To answer your question, though, Rutgers geography and flagship status is where the ACC should have been aiming. Flagship status implies the resources of the state are behind the institution. Rutgers and UConn (together with BC and Syracuse) would have left the ACC unchallenged on the entire North Atlantic coast. The northeast super region market could have better positioned the ACC to challenge the SEC on the South Atlantic coast. Would it have been a slam dunk? Of course not, but which of life's worthwhile goals are. The thing is Swoffy didn't even try, probably didn't even know TO try.

Swoffy is not the best commish, but, he's not totally stupid, either. His paramount goal a year ago was to save his league from potentially being torn completely apart. He succeeded. What his next move might be, I haven't a clue.

RU have had the resources of the state behind them for decades now, and, where has it gotten them? Unless they produce competitive teams in the B1G, what difference will it make? Fans will not show up if they don't produce once they get there. All of the incoming revenue will be nice, but, it they don't win, then what?

Swoffy has a vision for the league, and, just like you, I have no idea on earth what it might be. There were times I thought I could see it, but, I eventually gave up trying.

Truth be told, when last summer's CR talk began, I wanted UNC and UVA to tell the league where to go, and, jump to the SEC. But, the UNC BOGs were not going to let that happen, at least without finding NCSU a solid landing spot. Plus, I was not sold that UVA's Board of Visitors would agree to that, either.

 

[btstimpy]

Light the world on fire?RU was shocked they outnumbered Temple fans in Philly 5-1!You've lost any credibility with that silliness!

I wouldn't care who is sitting in the seats as long as someone is and it gets on TV in that market.

 

[SouthronCross]

If the ACC voted on Rutgers, I would expect that the same voting block that stopped UConn would have done the same to Rutgers. Syracuse in particular does not want to share NYC with anyone, especially Rutgers, even if Rutgers is 200 miles closer to Times Square than Syracuse. The ACC football block may have been a tad bit more receptive as they could ‘sell’ playing at Rutgers every few years to NJ recruits.

Thats a fair point about selling playing RU to NJ recruits. I know UNC and UVA recruit there regularly, among others.

As for UNC, they are happy with their fiefdom in the ACC as clearly the conference lives or dies with them. UNC would lose that clout in the B1G or any other conference. It will be interesting 20 years if the ACC implodes once the GoR’s expire and somehow the XII holds on as the survivor if demographics in NC at that time still favor the SEC or will enough Yankees invade TRP & Charlotte to lean UNC to the B1G.

UNC's 'fiefdom' died when the first expansion came to pass. UNC was 100 percent against going past 10 teams, but,they got outvoted, 7-2, on that one. The University has basically been against all ACC expansion, but, they know they're powerless to stop it. Now, they do exert a lot of influence, but, UNC's influence within the ACC is minute, compared to what Texas has in the Big 12.

 

[SouthronCross]

And thats just the reason the ACC is constantly outwitted and embarressed by the B1G!!

How was the ACC embarassed by the B1G? If you are referring to Maryland, you are mistaken. UMD spent itself into a financial black hole by trying to keep up with the Joneses (UNC-UVA). Jim Delany grabbed the lowest hanging fruit he could find, after UNC-UVA declined his overtures.

I find it hilarious that some UMD fans and alumni blame the ACC for the lack of revenue, when others in the league are solidly in the black with the same contract payouts.

 

[SouthronCross]

No your even less....your a troll!!

Good grief, it has devolved into a 'I know you are, but, what am I' conversation.

When you stick to the subject going forward, we can talk then.

 

[SouthronCross]

What has UNC ever accomplished even with cheating in FB?RU has been to 8 bowls in 9 years...I know nothing major but better than a middling FB team in the weakest "power" conference!

I've never said UNC was some kind of FB power. I know we are an average program. And, this is the first time our FB program has ever been in trouble with the NCAA.

Yes, RU's had a very good decade, and, we have not. Thats not debateable. Yet, we've won the last three games we've played vs RU. All played in that same decade, including two at your place. One, a 44-12 beatdown that we've since vacated as part of our NCAA punishment.

Just look up the records for the two schools, and, tell me what you find.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_ia_team_index.php

 

[d1reality]

I am dating Kate Upton.

That's super. You won't be up all night worried about the AAC football schedule.

 

[Adios]

That's super. You won't be up all night worried about the AAC football schedule.

Our time in the AAC will very likely be shorter than our time in the Big East. We should be in an elite athletic conference soon. That's definitely our future in hockey. SEC-level hockey. Good days ahead.