Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State?

[Duncan Idaho]

Taking down the JoePa statue and any reminder of that is the correct first steps. Not playing football on Saturdays right now.

Or put up a statue of Sandusky in handcuffs and put it right next JoePa,

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

quote="Carl Spackler, post: 280128, member: 1038"]
Why should the entire football program be shut down for the actions of a few? You must be a psych or sociology major.

Do the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?

The football program should be shut down, becuase protecting the image of the football program, is the reason that at least 8 children known of, were sexually assaulted, and their innocence lost forever to the evil that is Jerry Sandusky.

The needs of those few, the justice for those few, most definitely for me, outweighs the need of the many.

.

it has nothing to do with needs b/c we're not talking about needs. we're talking about whether we should punish the individuals or the organization. several secret service agents were recently caught with hookers in South America. do we punish those that acted irresponsibly, or do we punish the entire secret service? Nixon and G Gordon Liddy acted irresponsibly in trying to preserve their political party and win elections, should we have disbanded the GOP, or punished those that acted irresponsibly? to me it's obvious that you punish the individuals responsible.[/quote]

You're really not making a valid comparison here Matt. You can't shut down the Secret Service for obvious reasons. And the whole notion about punishing individuals and not organizations? Well, you might as might as well throw out every single NCAA rule, because they will become meaningless without any teeth.

PSU should handle this internally. But, I have no faith whatsoever in an institution that still has a current President and AD that were part of the institution when this whole thing happened. I don't know whether they knew about this or not, but I'd probably lean towards the notion that they had some inkling. PSU needs to cleanse itself. These guys need to go.

 

[CL82]

I'm not voicing an opinion on whether or not the NCAA should levy penalties. But Scahd's (and your) interpretation seems completely at odds with the facts. Have you read the letter Emmert sent to Penn State in November, clearly telling them why they are at risk for being found guilty of lack of institutional control? Emmert has already listed the applicable rules. It is very clear that the NCAA can act if they wish. And with public sentiment generally against Penn St, it could certainly happen.

http://www.psu.edu/ur/2011/NCAA.pdf

in the letter, Emmert invokes the following rules as possibly applicable and required Penn St to explain why they were not in violation. Penn St may have a very difficult time if Spanier is indicted along with Curley and Scultz. It isn't Sandusky, but the coverup that could eventually sink them.

Article 2.1: The principle of institutional control and responsibility -- "it is the responsibility of each member institution to control its intercollegiate athletics program in compliance with the rules and regulations of the Association. The institution's president or chancellor is responsible for the administration of all aspects of the athletics program. ... The institution's responsibility for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program includes responsibility for the actions of its staff members and for the actions of any other individual or organization engaged in activities promoting the athletics interests of the institution."
Article 2.4: The principle of sportsmanship and ethical conduct -- athletics should "promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with these athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty and responsibility."
Articles 6.01.1 and 6.4: General principle of institutional control (6.01.1); and Responsibility for actions of outside entities (6.4).
Bylaw 10.01.1: Ethical conduct, general principle of honesty and sportsmanship.
Bylaw 10.1: Unethical conduct -- "Unethical conduct by a prospective or enrolled student-athlete or a current or former institutional staff member, which includes any individual who performs work for the institution or the athletics department even if he or she does not receive compensation for such work, may include, but is not limited to" followed by a list of 10 possible situations. Emmert's letter says untheical conduct "is not limited to" just the 10 scenarios delineated".
Bylaws 11.1.1 and 11.1.2.1: Conducts of athletics personnel with regards to honesty and sportsmanship (11.1.1); and Responsibility of head coach (11.1.2.1) -- The head coach bylaw states, "It shall be the responsibility of an institution's head coach to promote an atmosphere for compliance within the program supervised by the coach and to monitor the activities regarding compliance of all assistant coaches and other administrators involved with the program who report directly or indirectly to the coach."
Bylaw 19.01.2: General principles of exemplary conduct.

Thanks for going back and finding this.

 

[CL82]

I replied already. It's not a method if there is no income from football. Food and scholarships are reimbursed to the school by the athletic department. There are no student fees or direct support funneled from academics to football.

Got it. I'd have to look at the numbers to see exactly where the revenue is from and where it is applied, but it doesn't surprise me that football is a money maker for Penn State.

An interesting question is whether PSU continues to get it's full share of B1G dollars if it isn't playing football. I'm pretty that sure it does. Maybe that's our revenue source?

 

[UCFBfan]

I think the fear here is that without sanctions, PSU football will go about business as usual and that's not ok. Rallying behind a team and thinking wins will erase the bad things is so far from reality it's scary. Yet this is how PSU fans, students, and alumni will view this. If anything, forcing the football program to pay is the only wake up call that might break these people of their embarrassing loyalty to JoePa

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[CL82]

The ESPN POLL is surprisingly split.

What do Boneyarders think?

 

[phillionaire]

They'll probably just turn him the other way. I'll see myself out...

 

[UCFBfan]

The ESPN POLL is surprisingly split.

What do Boneyarders think?

I saw that as well. It's a tough spot but I think it needs to come down. If anything, they need to start by washing away as much as possible the reminders of the whole thing. Clearly no one will forget Joe but the sayings around the statue completely contradict the end result. He may have stood for honor and integrity but this one event smears that away unfortunately.

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[upstater]

Got it. I'd have to look at the numbers to see exactly where the revenue is from and where it is applied, but it doesn't surprise me that football is a money maker for Penn State.

An interesting question is whether PSU continues to get it's full share of B1G dollars if it isn't playing football. I'm pretty that sure it does. Maybe that's our revenue source?

I'm sure it wouldn't get a share. Either way the school is going to pay, but the question is, should it come from football or tuition dollars.

Personally, that's a secondary concern of mine, as I said in my initial reply. I'd be much more concerned by the meeting that's happening today in response to the Freeh report. The BOT is deciding how to change PSU's culture given the closed circuit that created the cover-up. If the BOT decides that it will now demand oversight in cases such as this, I think PSU will change for the worse. There will only be even more political interference in the future. If, on the other hand, PSU takes up the recommendations that the Joe Paterno Chair, Michael Berube, made in the NY Times, to appoint a board of faculty to oversee such investigations, then there will be an amount of transparency that will be good for the university. The vast majority (probably 99%) of faculty there are outsiders who do not have PSU degrees. This wouldn't have gotten by such a board. It was the closed circuit between Paterno, Schultz and Spanier that created the mess.

I think this is the biggest issue and whatever the BOT decides, you'll see exactly where their hearts and minds reside. Keeping it inside the BOT (which has even more of a closed mentality than the administration) will mean no change at all, and possibly a worse atmosphere. If they go that route, expect a huge pushback from faculty of the sort you saw at U. Virginia and U. Illinois recently.

 

[upstater]

But for Paterno's intervention Sundusky's reign of terror ends in 2001.

I'm not so sure disease is right charactorization. I'm sure the victims and their families would view it as a crime.

I think this is naive. If you read the report, it's clear that Spanier and Schultz were already predisposed toward the strategy they took. The emails prior to the Curley-Paterno meeting showed that they were wavering as to whether it was a really good idea to alert authorities. After Curley talked to Paterno, they immediately agreed and even went beyond that by, 1, saying the new course was reasonable, 2, "humane" treatment of Sandusky, 3, they mentioned the cost/benefit of liabilities, and 4, never once mentioned the victims. If I were to weigh fault, I would put it on Paterno/Spanier. Schultz was semi-retired (it was his last month on the job) and should have spoken up. Curley really was Paterno's minion.

 

[upstater]

I'll say yes, though there are much bigger fish to fry on that campus, like how the BOT is going to handle the Freeh report (and I'm not talking about its treatment of football here but rather what boards will oversee such allegations in the future).

But, rather than worry about the statue, what do you think is going to happen with the multiple Chairs that Paterno endowed? Or even the Paterno Library? Like it or not, he left his mark on that university. It's an interesting question, because these Chairs and the Library cannot be renamed without the university returning all that money. The school doesn't get to just keep the Paterno money.

Whatever happens, you can bet that Paterno's name will be officially associated with the university for a very long time. So, taking the statue down won't really matter. The guy was there for 50 years. It will be incredibly hard to get rid of him.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I think this is naive. If you read the report, it's clear that Spanier and Schultz were already predisposed toward the strategy they took. The emails prior to the Curley-Paterno meeting showed that they were wavering as to whether it was a really good idea to alert authorities. After Curley talked to Paterno, they immediately agreed and even went beyond that by, 1, saying the new course was reasonable, 2, "humane" treatment of Sandusky, 3, they mentioned the cost/benefit of liabilities, and 4, never once mentioned the victims. If I were to weigh fault, I would put it on Paterno/Spanier. Schultz was semi-retired (it was his last month on the job) and should have spoken up. Curley really was Paterno's minion.

This is horsesh*t. I swear Penn State people are going to drive me to drink.

Page 227 Exhibit 5G
http://assets.espn.go.com/pdf/2012/0712/psupressrelease.pdf

Sunday, 2/25/2011 Curley had a conversation with his superiors about how to handle Sandusky,and course of action was decided upon, which based on teh response back to Spanier on Tuesday night, involved "going to everyone". Curley met with Joe Paterno on Monday 2/26/2011. AFter that meeting, he scheduled a meeting with his superiors to review the plan, which he was no longer comfortable with.

Curly went from taking info given him, meeting with his superiors on a Sunday, deciding on a course of action that involved "going to everyone", meeting with Joe Paterno on monday, and then going to a course of action that was approved by his superiors, that involved telling Sandusky they knew all about him and the kids - putting those kids in immediate, life threatening, danger. That's what Joe Paterno did.

I"m going to make a reach here, but you all out there go ahead and be the judge.

THis decision - to go to Sandusky - instead of goign to authorties.....is the duckING thing that kills me. Anybody else here want to make a guess , have any FICKING idea why that boy in 2001 has never been found? Think I"m being unrealistic? If Sandusky was capable of everythign he did, what else was he capable of doing to one of those boys? That boy, will never be found, because he's dead. I want to beat the out of somebody. I could never be a law enforcement professional.

 

[freescooter]

If Paterno had told him to keep the hell out and told the other coaches and staff to keep jerry out, Sandusky would have been kept out. And obvioulsy they didn't make any effort to enforce the "no children" rule on him, even after 2001. he was still coming in and apparetnly bringing children in well after 2001.

 

[SubbaBub]

I think it would be up to PSU and not ESPN.

FWIW, I don't see it happening, unless it becomes a constant target of vandalism.

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[Carl Spackler]

If Paterno had told him to keep the hell out and told the other coaches and staff to keep jerry out, Sandusky would have been kept out. And obvioulsy they didn't make any effort to enforce the "no children" rule on him, even after 2001. he was still coming in and apparetnly bringing children in well after 2001.

Amen. The rest of all this BS discussion is Penn State people defending their six decade old culture of absolute power built up around football at all costs, which is exactly why it must be struck down. Quickly and forcefully.

 

[freescooter]

I guess I don't have strong feelings about that one way or another. For once I agree with upstater that there are bigger issues here than a statue. I would think if i were part of Penn State's administration that I'd be inclined to move it somewhere less highly visible for the moment...some out of the way courtyard on the campus maybe and do it as quietly as possible.

 

[TRest]

They should stick it in his front yard as ashrine for his followers. It will be interesting to see if psu had football fans or mainly Joe Pa fans.


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[bmayuc]

tear it down. That's a start.

 

[upstater]

This is horsesh*t. I swear Penn State people are going to drive me to drink.

Page 227 Exhibit 5G
http://assets.espn.go.com/pdf/2012/0712/psupressrelease.pdf

Sunday, 2/25/2011 Curley had a conversation with his superiors about how to handle Sandusky,and course of action was decided upon, which based on teh response back to Spanier on Tuesday night, involved "going to everyone". Curley met with Joe Paterno on Monday 2/26/2011. AFter that meeting, he scheduled a meeting with his superiors to review the plan, which he was no longer comfortable with.

Curly went from taking info given him, meeting with his superiors on a Sunday, deciding on a course of action that involved "going to everyone", meeting with Joe Paterno on monday, and then going to a course of action that was approved by his superiors, that involved telling Sandusky they knew all about him and the kids - putting those kids in immediate, life threatening, danger. That's what Joe Paterno did.

I"m going to make a reach here, but you all out there go ahead and be the judge.

THis decision - to go to Sandusky - instead of goign to authorties.....is the duckING thing that kills me. Anybody else here want to make a guess , have any FICKING idea why that boy in 2001 has never been found? Think I"m being unrealistic? If Sandusky was capable of everythign he did, what else was he capable of doing to one of those boys? That boy, will never be found, because he's dead. I want to beat the out of somebody. I could never be a law enforcement professional.

You're wrong.

Exhibit 5c on 2/12/01 shows that Schultz and Spanier had already agreed to contact Sandusky first, and they said unless Sandusky went along, only then would they contact authorities. This is on page 219.

This proves you never read the report.

 

[upstater]

Amen. The rest of all this BS discussion is Penn State people defending their six decade old culture of absolute power built up around football at all costs, which is exactly why it must be struck down. Quickly and forcefully.

No, what's bullshit is your constant twisting and distorting of the facts.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Upstater:

If you have any respect at all for me, please - go out and buy Eric Greitens "The Heart and the Fist" - today. I discussed it a while back in this monster of a discussion. Read it over the weekend. Don't pay attention to anythying in the news about Penn State over the weekend when you do it.

I understand everything you've written about the BOT - needing to change they way information flows, the closed chain involved that led to all of this, how they need to change that. THat kind of change is absolutely necessary, and I expect it to happen, and if it doesn't, I think you've already agreed that there's significant blowing up to do.

THe problem, is that I don't believe that change is enough, there are times for going through the heart, and there are times for going with the fist, and the fist to the football program for Penn State, is the only way to address this situation. Confronting this issue, is the reason that Eric Greitens, rhodes scholar, greenpeace huminatarian peace and aid worker in Eastern europe and Africa, choose to enroll in the Navy and become a navy seal, and on to OCS, and went to battle as a warrior for our country.

If after you read that book, you think you can convince me that there is still a way for Penn State to correct all that happened regarding Jerry Sandusky, without severely, SEVERELY, punishing the football program, then I will listen.

For now, I'm going to do something I've never done on this message board, and i'm going to choose to ignore you. Nothing personal, I just can't take reading any more logical, peaceful kind of approach to change for PSU. It's got to forceful, damage induced change. I'll check back next week.

 

[Carl Spackler]

You're wrong.

Exhibit 5c on 2/12/01 shows that Schultz and Spanier had already agreed to contact Sandusky first, and they said unless Sandusky went along, only then would they contact authorities. This is on page 219.

This proves you never read the report.

God damn, you keep drawing me back in, I didn't see this and I didn't ignore fast enough. Paterno was involved in making it so that proper reporting training was not done for the football program. THe problem - is that they went to Sandusky. at all. Yes, "going to everyone" including going to Sandusky and authorities. SAndusky should never have been told that they know - do you get that? That's the danger they put that child in.

After meeting with Paterno, they didn't tell anybody BUT Sandusky and his circle of influence!!!!! AT least if they had gone with the orignial plan, they would have informed more people that could protect that single child - and all the others.

WHen the former director of the FBI stood up yesterday and talked about how shocking the disregard for the children was by these 4 men - this is exactly what he was talking about.

OK? Please go read that book I referenced. It will change your outlook, I hope.

CYA.

 

[Palatine]

They should just ad a little Calvin statue peeing on his foot.

 

[huskymedic]

I guess I don't have strong feelings about that one way or another. For once I agree with upstater that there are bigger issues here than a statue. I would think if i were part of Penn State's administration that I'd be inclined to move it somewhere less highly visible for the moment...some out of the way courtyard on the campus maybe and do it as quietly as possible.

Similar vein by Buster Olney - Buster_ESPN - "If I were at PSU, I'd want the school to create a Paterno room. Move the statue there, and tell all info w/ neutral text-- the good AND bad"

 

[Waquoit]

Can we agree that Jay Paterno ought to shut up for his own good? He's coming off as bad as his old man. He also doesn't seem to have an ounce of concern for the victims. The BS detector for me went off full blast when he talked about dad's "superiors" at Penn State. Pops didn't have any superiors at Penn State.