Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State?

[upstater]

First off, tone it down dude your getting a tad dramatic, even with a football ban, and withholding federal funding and an insane amount of civil damages the university is not closing shop (and to assume all three actually do happen is a bit unrealistic). Between their endowment, private donations and any emergency state funding, Pennsylvania will be able to keep open PSU.

PA. provides 4% of the school's funding. Gov. wants to make that 2%.

The endowment is already being employed to hold down tuition (heh)

No federal funding will be withheld. That money has nothing to do with sports, it aids students.

The idea that no football would hurt the community 7 or 8 weeks a year might seem logical but I have seen studies that showed the same amount of money lost without football then being plowed into the school would have much bigger multipliers for the community.

I'm surprised that more people aren't considering that PSU should end the football program or drop down a few divisions. Boston U. did it, Hofstra. It shouldn't be unthinkable. The NCAA obviously would not want to ever do something like that.

 

[upstater]

Biz, I understand your point, but let's not lose sight of the fact that these football programs and athletic departments are acting every bit the part of for-profit organizations - the very worst of them.

Taking the whole institution down is crazy imo. But, if I were PSU I would shelve this football season in the hopes of bringing about meaningful change in the athletic department that could be demonstrated to the public.

I can't agree with this primarily because I don't think they make any profits, but IF you mean for-profit orgs in which the CEOs make bundles and have golden parachutes while they sink their companies fortunes, then the analogy is a litle more apt, simply because of the many millions the coaches are making.

 

[upstater]

the way i see it, the Clery Act says it can levy a punishment of forfeiture of any federal aid, and if this is not the situation that would warrant it, what would be? i don't think it'll be the end of PSU, but they may have to lower tuition or offer more scholarships out of their endowment to make up the difference and it'll be painful

Matt, I can't understand this post. Lower tuition and offer more scholarships out of endowment, what? Uh... this just doesn't make any sense.

 

[upstater]

The Feds are not going to stop providing financial aid to PSU students as a punishment for this. It is not going to happen, and shouldn't.

Could PSU be harmed by endowment funds paying for legal costs and adverse judgments? Could PSU as an institution be harmed by less political support withing Harrisburg? All of that is possible. PSU could be materially harmed as an institution. But no governmental body is doing anything that would actually threaten the existence, as opposed to the prominence of the university.

And, to be clear, imposing a death penalty on the football program would cause material harm, but would not threaten the existence of Penn State University.

The vast majority of endowment funds can't be touched. Most come from wealthy donors with stipulations. Annual alumni contributions can be touched but that's not the biggest chunk of that money. PSU already receives practically no support from Harrisburg and if Harrisburg cut support even more, PSU would choose to shut down satellite campuses first.

This is already the controversy and battle that was being aged between Spanier and his board members and Corbett and his board members long before the Sandusky story broke. It has been the background to this saga.

One thing could severely threaten PSU and that's the wrong people being put in charge because of the scandal.

 

[upstater]

you're 100% right. if they say eliminating federal aid is a potential penalty of violating the Clery Act, what else could they possibly need to have happen to make use of it? if they don't use it now they should just take it off the table as a penalty

The President of Eastern Michigan and his administrators covered up murders and allowed a murderer (a student) to continue to prey on the campus.

Clery Act fine: $300k

 

[upstater]

I agree W. That's my perception, and that's why the solution is to shut down the football program and get the people of Pennsylvania, to demand change. IMNSHO.

You are wildly overstating the importance of football. It was very important to these people. It wasn't the be all and end all. They endured 4 straight losing seasons without drops in attendance. They can endure more.

 

[noeynox]

The President of Eastern Michigan and his administrators covered up murders and allowed a murderer (a student) to continue to prey on the campus.

Clery Act fine: $300k

I think you understate the importance of the time frame of the cover up. The EMU thing was uncovered in fairly short order. The PSU thing was covered up that we know of, for at least the twelve years, and the predator kept re offending during parts of that time frame. At EMU, the decision to cover it up, did not involve a high profile coach (that I recall) and that it what makes the PSU thing "sports news". Right or wrong, Paterno is going to be viewed as the driving force behind Sandusky being allowed to continue his predatory ways. Short of one of the other four coming out and saying that JoePa wanted to turn Sandusky in, and I put a stop to it, that is never going to change. Somehow I think PSU fans want to see Spanier fall on the sword for this whole thing and I don't understand it.

If I were you, I'd take a break from this. I think people are posting to get a reaction out of you. It will all sort itself out in time, for now PSU will take a beating in the media and on message boards. I personally think it is getting sensationalized too much at this point with everyone offering their two cents.

 

[upstater]

I think you understate the importance of the time frame of the cover up. The EMU thing was uncovered in fairly short order. The PSU thing was covered up that we know of, for at least the twelve years, and the predator kept re offending during parts of that time frame. At EMU, the decision to cover it up, did not involve a high profile coach (that I recall) and that it what makes the PSU thing "sports news". Right or wrong, Paterno is going to be viewed as the driving force behind Sandusky being allowed to continue his predatory ways. Short of one of the other four coming out and saying that JoePa wanted to turn Sandusky in, and I put a stop to it, that is never going to change. Somehow I think PSU fans want to see Spanier fall on the sword for this whole thing and I don't understand it.

If I were you, I'd take a break from this. I think people are posting to get a reaction out of you. It will all sort itself out in time, for now PSU will take a beating in the media and on message boards. I personally think it is getting sensationalized too much at this point with everyone offering their two cents.

I really have no idea what your last statement is about. I've been busy for about 4 days. I don't see anyone trying to get a reaction. But the Fed regulators are not going to take into account what Sandusky did elsewhere after 2001. They are going to look at how/whether PSU broke regulations. They may not even have anything. What seems like a clear cover-up to all of us here may not be the same sort of cover-up we saw at EMU, which was a clandestine one. Here we had multiple men emailing one another, calling in lawyers, witnesses, even reports to the Second Mile non-profit. The nature of this cover-up was to sweep things under the rug and absolve themselves of all responsibility. It wasn't exactly cloak & dagger as at EMU.

Obviously, whether or not this is sports news or sports related is going to be totally irrelevant to the DOE since their interests lie in university governance and fed regulations. It would be beyond shocking to me if they ended federal support for student loans, esp. when we have total fraudsters out there (some schools) receiving loans currently and congress can't even manage to end that.

 

[mattp]

Matt, I can't understand this post. Lower tuition and offer more scholarships out of endowment, what? Uh... this just doesn't make any sense.

i just figured if their students aren't allowed to use federal aid, that PSU would have to in-effect lower their price tag by either lowering tuition or offering more scholarships out of their endowment. either one of which would greatly impact their total budget

 

[upstater]

i just figured if their students aren't allowed to use federal aid, that PSU would have to in-effect lower their price tag by either lowering tuition or offering more scholarships out of their endowment. either one of which would greatly impact their total budget

It would be the opposite. Higher tuition. Endowment defrays tuition. Cut into your endowment and tuition rises faster in the future.

Look at Harvard to see how it works. Harvard is fully funding middle class students by growing its endowment. It's the opposite dynamic. It keeps raising tuition because it redistributes money from the rich to the poor and middle class. Tuition goes up, and more students receive scholarships. In other words, at schools such as Harvard, it's often the case that tuition is HIGHER than the actual cost of attendance. When a school like Seton Hall did exactly what you suggested and lowered tuition, almost everyone suspected that this meant less funding for poorer students and therefore less diversity.

 

[Waquoit]

Paterno's reach, and the culture he developed over all those years, is exactly why they chose to handle Jerry Sandusky themselves.

It's clear they weren't remotely interested in "handling" Sandusky. They just wanted to keep close under a watchful eye on him so the truth wouldn't get out. No one tried to stop anything except for their personal "collateral damage."

 

[Waquoit]

The President of Eastern Michigan and his administrators covered up murders and allowed a murderer (a student) to continue to prey on the campus.
Clery Act fine: $300k

You make this point often. As if this is just the same as penalizing cheap shot in hockey.

 

[Adios]

I was talking to this super beautiful girl yesterday about how she is transferring from UConn-Stamford to PSU. I kinda feel bad for her.

 

[upstater]

You make this point often. As if this is just the same as penalizing cheap shot in hockey.

Huh? Murders = cheap shot?

 

[businesslawyer]

I was talking to this super beautiful girl yesterday about how she is transferring from UConn-Stamford to PSU. I kinda feel bad for her.

You feel badly for her because she was super beautiful but was spending her time talking to you?

 

[Adios]

You feel badly for her because she was super beautiful but was spending her time talking to you?

Naaaa. I ain't a bad looking dude. Just feel bad for her because she seems to be a cool person.

 

[Waquoit]

I was talking to this super beautiful girl yesterday about how she is transferring from UConn-Stamford to PSU. I kinda feel bad for her.

Why? You know she'll be safe.

 

[Adios]

Why? You know she'll be safe.

You have a point there. lol

 

[Waquoit]

Huh? Murders = cheap shot?

It's a comment on the process you seem to be endorsing. You're the learned professional, I didn't realize I'd have to spell it out. For instance in hockey, say a guy gets 3 games for a cheap shot. Next time someone cheap shots they start at three and say well that foul wasn't as bad, he gets 2. Or it was worse, he gets 5. Or he's a repeat offender he gets 7, etc.

Since you keep bringing EMU up, finish your point. In your system how many ass rapes equals one murder?

 

[upstater]

It's a comment on the process you seem to be endorsing. You're the learned professional, I didn't realize I'd have to spell it out. For instance in hockey, say a guy gets 3 games for a cheap shot. Next time someone cheap shots they start at three and say well that foul wasn't as bad, he gets 2. Or it was worse, he gets 5. Or he's a repeat offender he gets 7, etc.

Since you keep bringing EMU up, finish your point. In your system how many ass rapes equals one murder?

We're talking about DOE and the Clery Act. This is not about criminality. the justice system deals with that. The Clery Act deals with reporting. In PSU's case, we're talking about the lack of a report for 2001. Unless I'm mistaken, there were no other incidents. I'm not about to weigh in on whether a murder is worse than rape or vice versa, I was only pointing out the competency for the DOE in this case. That's pretty clear.

Especially since I'm in favor of the Death penalty and much much more for football--which has absolutely nothing to do with the DOE's purview nor is levels of punishment.

 

[FAIRTIDES]

The NCAA is going to have to let Penn State players transfer and be eligible immediately. I would have to think UConn will be attractive to Silas Redd, Fortt and Golden. What does everyone think?

I think you are trivializing the issue when you relate the fallout to/as something something that might improve a team you root for. As UCONN fans this (thinking of players that might be available) should be marked as "beneath our dignity!"

 

[TouchdownHusky]

I think after SMU they basically decided never to enact the death penalty again.

But then you miss out on the real value of this sanction. The death penalty brought SMU back to the pack. They were an elite program that stomped on opponents. After the Death Penalty, they were no longer the same. They eventually got back the football program and continued to play at the D1 level but just no longer at the elite level.

Let Penn State go through this same ordeal, make football a part of the university not the other way around. And, it will give a program like UConn a chance to make inroads so that maybe they can have a football program that can complete on equal terms with the Lions. Heck maybe they could take Penn State's place in the Big Whatever it is at the moment until Penn State recovers.

 

[TouchdownHusky]

I think you are trivializing the issue when you relate the fallout to/as something something that might improve a team you root for. As UCONN fans this (thinking of players that might be available) should be marked as "beneath our dignity!"

No. But I do think that Penn State would be trivalizing the issue if these guys were to take the field for the Lions. Besides I would think that abandoning long terms conference members like Syracuse, Pitt and West Virginia would be beneath their dignity. But . . . oh well. Life goes on.

The moral debate is owned by Penn State. Shut down the program and let the current players seek other opportunities that have less stigma. UConn would be a great fit.

 

[LIUCHusky]

No. But I do think that Penn State would be trivalizing the issue if these guys were to take the field for the Lions. Besides I would think that abandoning long terms conference members like Syracuse, Pitt and West Virginia would be beneath their dignity. But . . . oh well. Life goes on.

The moral debate is owned by Penn State. Shut down the program and let the current players seek other opportunities that have less stigma. UConn would be a great fit.

How would UConn be a great fit? Where would the scholarship room come from? The only schools that may benefit from a football standpoint would be those schools with scholarship room.

 

[TouchdownHusky]

How would UConn be a great fit? Where would the scholarship room come from? The only schools that may benefit from a football standpoint would be those schools with scholarship room.[/quote

Find room. Make room. Don't need a ton, but 2 or 3 would be good.