Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State?

[upstater]

I heard a good point on the radio last night. If they give PSU the death penalty, numerous other sports at PSU will be harshly affected, since many of the non-revenue sports survive on the money football makes. So if football is gone for a year, it could mean the temporary or permanent axing of many teams who had absolutely nothing to do with this. It could also lead to potential tuition increases since there would be less money coming into the university, which would in turn affect taxpayers in the state of PA (wasn't an issue with SMU of course) and force students to pay more. The overarching point was, this is a matter best handled by the criminal courts, not the NCAA courts. This report more or less confirms all of the major players will be put on trial and most if not all will likely go to jail for one reason or another. I'm not sure a death penalty, based on the facts we know now, really accomplishes too much other than making the public happy. Those who were involved will be punished criminally, as they should.

Whoever was talking about that on radio had it half right. It will impact the athletic department but the money lost to the academic side is small and negligible. Shutting down football won't lead to tuition increases. What will lead to tuition increases is paying civil damages--unless they figure out a way to siphon money from football to pay for the damages.

 

[Carl Spackler]

It was revived through violence. Here, we have the media (and the public) going haywire over this scandal. But at the same time, our military helped revive the same behavior over there. It's all completely backwards. I am sure Freeh knows. Alfred Kinsey was mentioned before. He performed sexual experiments on kids at IU. And now he has an institute named after him at IU.

I really don't think PSU will get the death penalty. Time to move on. Let the civil lawsuits settle the issue.

Agreed. THe choice to use force and violence to create change in another culture, is the most difficult choice, there can be. There are always unitended consequences and collateral damage. BUt it does not change the fact, that there are times, when violence, is the only way.

Hitler.

 

[upstater]

I don't know how hard this is to understand?

Jimmy, the discussion isn't about the shameful behavior. We all agree there. It's about what happened between Paterno and the administrators.

 

[upstater]

Wow, upstater. That's a little silly isn't it. Support continuing a shine to a pedophile enabler or you are a book burner?

I'm not the one who brought up Hitler. But yes, I don't see why the professors should pay for this. The Joe Paterno chair in fact wrote a very poignant opinion piece on just this issue in the NY Times. Those chairs aren't easy to come by. To pay someone $125k a year, you need $5 million. The university isn't about to increase the amount it has invested in a department by that much just to make a senior hire. Ain't gonna happen. Not these days. Not to mention what's happening to university libraries all over the country. And university presses. If you really think that's really a bad analogy you're mistaken. LSU and Missouri just got rid of their libraries that sponsored presses, and this basically means a whole selection of American history and literature is now out of print. Cal-Berkeley too. Meanwhile, PSU is still printing.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Jimmy, the discussion isn't about the shameful behavior. We all agree there. It's about what happened between Paterno and the administrators.

Yes, I know. And honestly, my head hurts from these last 2 days.

Question for you since you were there for a while......what is your feeling on the current prez and AD in place now? I don't know how PSU didn't go outside of PSU for these hires. They have to go, no?

 

[Adios]

There are always unitended consequences and collateral damage.

You're missing the fact that the government installed by the US doesn't fight this "dancing boys" culture. Whatever the deal, welcome to earth, people. Money talks, BS walks.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Carl, I think you are sweeping the systematic problems in PSU's administration under the rug by overemphasizing the football aspect.

This is most definitely where we're butting heads. Shutting down the football program for a year, I think, will make the entire culture of Penn State go into an uproar, and guarantee the complete restructuring of the administration. MY opinion.

My interpretation of you, is that you think they'll be able to get things right over there, fix all those systematic problems, on their own, without any external influence. I disagree, and the statement from the BOT rep yesterday after their meetings all day, talking about really needing to decide how to handle Joe Paterno's image?

Come on man. ( in my best Keyshawn voice)

 

[Carl Spackler]

You're missing the fact that the government installed by the US doesn't fight this "dancing boys" culture. Whatever the deal, welcome to earth, people. Money talks, BS walks.

Not a politician Butchy, never was, never will be. I have no answers. War is extension of politics. The purpose of battle is to win. The rest is for politicians to figure out, and that's where the mess in Afghanistan is right now.

 

[upstater]

Yes, I know. And honestly, my head hurts from these last 2 days.

Question for you since you were there for a while......what is your feeling on the current prez and AD in place now? I don't know how PSU didn't go outside of PSU for these hires. They have to go, no?

They are interim. The current AD was a well-heeled corporate CEO on the BOT, who knows next to nothing about sports (well, I made that up). The President is interim and comes from the ranks of upper-level administrators who are normally culled from faculty all over America. So, it's no surprise that Erickson is a PSU person. People in those positions rise from the faculty ranks all over America. It's only the top two positions (Provost and President) where national searches are conducted. I'm assuming they will be in the future.

In reading the letters in Freeh's exhibits, I noticed Erickson was against naming Sandusky emeritus. But he and Rpbert Secor (who I have met in the past) found that it was the president's prerogative to do so and that PSU presidents had done so in the past with people of Sandusky's rank. It was highly unusual however.

I think Spanier definitely has to go, but (this is pure conjecture) I also believe there is a little bit of blackmail going on. Here is Spanier, still unindicted, still holding his tenured professorship, still earning money from PSU as is his wife, and yet he is seemingly untouchable. I want to see the BOT get some nuts and fire him. But I find it curious that there was so much deflection in the leaks. As long as there is no public outcry and the matter can rest on the Freeh report, I don't believe there will ever be anything that sees the BOT move against Spanier. Too much history there, too many secrets.

There is a good possibility though that the Curley/Schultz trial will shake things up so much that Spanier is indicted, and thus the rug will be pulled from under the entire administrative structure. At that point, some of the Freeh report might backfire on both Freeh and the BOT.

There are a lot of unanswered questions still.

 

[Carl Spackler]

They are interim. The current AD was a well-heeled corporate CEO on the BOT, who knows next to nothing about sports (well, I made that up). The President is interim and comes from the ranks of upper-level administrators who are normally culled from faculty all over America. So, it's no surprise that Erickson is a PSU person. People in those positions rise from the faculty ranks all over America. It's only the top two positions (Provost and President) where national searches are conducted. I'm assuming they will be in the future.

In reading the letters in Freeh's exhibits, I noticed Erickson was against naming Sandusky emeritus. But he and Rpbert Secor (who I have met in the past) found that it was the president's prerogative to do so and that PSU presidents had done so in the past with people of Sandusky's rank. It was highly unusual however.

I think Spanier definitely has to go, but (this is pure conjecture) I also believe there is a little bit of blackmail going on. Here is Spanier, still unindicted, still holding his tenured professorship, still earning money from PSU as is his wife, and yet he is seemingly untouchable. I want to see the BOT get some nuts and fire him. But I find it curious that there was so much deflection in the leaks. As long as there is no public outcry and the matter can rest on the Freeh report, I don't believe there will ever be anything that sees the BOT move against Spanier. Too much history there, too many secrets.

There is a good possibility though that the Curley/Schultz trial will shake things up so much that Spanier is indicted, and thus the rug will be pulled from under the entire administrative structure. At that point, some of the Freeh report might backfire on both Freeh and the BOT.

There are a lot of unanswered questions still.

Sooner or later, you'll realize, that the only way to create the change you want to see here, is not through peaceful manner, but to hit the penn state culture, as hard as you possibly can, where it hurts the most and inflicts the most damage.

 

[Adios]

Not a politician Butchy, never was, never will be. I have no answers. War is extension of politics. The purpose of battle is to win. The rest is for politicians to figure out, and that's where the mess in Afghanistan is right now.

If politicians cared so much about kids being abused, the other three administrators other than Paterno (since he is dead) would be in jail right now. Anyhow, enough of me.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

They are interim. The current AD was a well-heeled corporate CEO on the BOT, who knows next to nothing about sports (well, I made that up). The President is interim and comes from the ranks of upper-level administrators who are normally culled from faculty all over America. So, it's no surprise that Erickson is a PSU person. People in those positions rise from the faculty ranks all over America. It's only the top two positions (Provost and President) where national searches are conducted. I'm assuming they will be in the future.

In reading the letters in Freeh's exhibits, I noticed Erickson was against naming Sandusky emeritus. But he and Rpbert Secor (who I have met in the past) found that it was the president's prerogative to do so and that PSU presidents had done so in the past with people of Sandusky's rank. It was highly unusual however.

I think Spanier definitely has to go, but (this is pure conjecture) I also believe there is a little bit of blackmail going on. Here is Spanier, still unindicted, still holding his tenured professorship, still earning money from PSU as is his wife, and yet he is seemingly untouchable. I want to see the BOT get some nuts and fire him. But I find it curious that there was so much deflection in the leaks. As long as there is no public outcry and the matter can rest on the Freeh report, I don't believe there will ever be anything that sees the BOT move against Spanier. Too much history there, too many secrets.

There is a good possibility though that the Curley/Schultz trial will shake things up so much that Spanier is indicted, and thus the rug will be pulled from under the entire administrative structure. At that point, some of the Freeh report might backfire on both Freeh and the BOT.

There are a lot of unanswered questions still.

I'm pretty sure Erickson had the interim tag removed a few weeks after he was named interim president.

 

[upstater]

This is most definitely where we're butting heads. Shutting down the football program for a year, I think, will make the entire culture of Penn State go into an uproar, and guarantee the complete restructuring of the administration. MY opinion.

I'm for shutting it down. You wildly overestimate things however. I don't think you know how inbred and embedded things are. Read Michael Berube's article in the NYT (it';s the only one who wrote) to realize the stakes are much bigger than football.

Realize that PSU gets 4% of budget support from the state, that there is a proposed 50% cut in the works, that Spanier and PSU have fended off a hundred million dollar shale gas institute, that there have been fight-to-the-death political battles over these issues between the educators and the BOT, that whole institutions such as PSU-Altoona have been threatened with shutdown. You think football is going to change a many billions of dollar problem with repercussions into political and business spheres throughout the state. I disagree.

My interpretation of you, is that you think they'll be able to get things right over there, fix all those systematic problems, on their own, without any external influence. I disagree, and the statement from the BOT rep yesterday after their meetings all day, talking about really needing to decide how to handle Joe Paterno's image?

Uh, no. I don't think they'll be able to fix it. I think there is going to be a massive fight. The fact is, because of the kind of secrecy that comes into play when you weigh criminal allegations against worker's rights, there is always going to be a hushed approach to criminal matters. The only question is, how wide is the circuit and who has oversight? The BOT or the faculty? How much input do the lawyers have? I have said this to you repeatedly but it wasn't only Paterno who made the call, but Spanier, and his lawyers, and even a medical doctor who was a mandatory reporter. Clearly, we need people who are not so interested in the university's liabilities involved (the doctor is the only one who doesn't fit the profile of people concerned with the university's bottom line). I think there is huge potential is having a power-sharing arrangement go awry here, but I think the way things have gone, if they make this solely into a football issue (which I do not believe it is as I stated time and time again, esp. given Spanier's pattern of behavior with previous incidents of child abuse), then the pressure to have oversight conducted by more impartial members of the community will dissipate. And you may get something even worse than what you started with.

The only good part of this so far is that all university employees are required to report allegations of child abuse to police immediately, no matter how much craziness that might entail in terms of worker rights. That much is clear. As to how the university then handles such matters, that's totally up in the air.

 

[upstater]

Sooner or later, you'll realize, that the only way to create the change you want to see here, is not through peaceful manner, but to hit the penn state culture, as hard as you possibly can, where it hurts the most and inflicts the most damage.

I really think you're way off on this. There are so much bigger issues than football, but because you're discussing this on a college sports board, your view is skewed.

 

[Waquoit]

Losing a gym doesn't hurt the educational priorities of a school. Losing world-renowned educators who occupy the Paterno chairs would. Libraries are more important than gyms as well.

. If you really think that's really a bad analogy you're mistaken. LSU and Missouri just got rid of their libraries that sponsored presses, and this basically means a whole selection of American history and literature is now out of print. Cal-Berkeley too. Meanwhile, PSU is still printing.

You should just change your name to Roddy Piper, whenever someone gives you an answer, you just change the question.

Taking Paterno's name off the library doesn't make it disappear. I guess you're saying it would mean the Paterno family would want some money back making it a money thing. And I'm dubious about the true effect of " losing world-renowned educators". What "world-renowned educator" would want to sit in chair endowed by someone associated with child abuse anyway?

I do feel badly about that whole selection of American history and literature that is now out of print. I sure hope they have scanners.

But because I care, I have a piece of advice for you, up. Take a week off, go on a Boneyard fast. I will do you a world of good. You are clearly losing your marbles.

 

[Adios]

 

[upstater]

I'm pretty sure Erickson had the interim tag removed a few weeks after he was named interim president.

I thinkt hat was a PR ploy. They initially said there would still be a search. Then others said there would not be. I think the idea is to get through the reports and trials and to set policies, and then search for a new Prez.

 

[uconndogs]

JoePa was a great man. Like all of us, flawed, and in some ways significantly so. So no, I don't think the statue needs to come down.

But, Penn State needs to take a meaningful step to show remorse, to show that the culture that allowed for this atrocity is being addressed and to make a significant contribution to victims of child abuse (not as part of settlements they are about to encounter, but a unilateral contribution).

I think it starts with the football program. A self imposed, multi-year reduction in football scholarships with the savings associated with such to be contributed to such a cause.

A home game, dedicated to the victims maybe even all victims, of child abuse. Before the game there should be a moment of silence in rememberence and where PSU says "we're sorry". The gate proceeds, or a significant portion thereof, should also be contributed to the cause.

Finally, there should be a self imposed ban for one or two seasons on any bowl appearances. Because it shows in some small way that football takes a backseat to doing what is right.

That would be leadership. That would be a start to healing. I am not hopeful.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

The shut down of the PSU football program, for failure to main institutional control and ethics, is most definitely warranted in this case from the NCAA. The collateral damage risk to the institution, is not enough to stop it. And seriously, if shutting down the footblal program for a a year at PSU has SUCH and effect to harm the university? Isn't that evidence enough that the problem - is the football program?

The case of failure to maintain institutional control and ethics is too greivous.

But the lack of institutional control rule pertains to a lack of institutional control over abiding by NCAA rules. They would have to VERY loosely interpret their rules to apply that to what happened here. That's why I think a lengthy investigation will take place here to try and uncover anything that may have clearly violated a specific NCAA rule.

I personally can't see how this went on for 15 years almost without a single dime of hush money being paid. If that is uncovered, especially if it was to multiple people over a long period of time, and depending on where the money came from, the death penalty most definitely becomes a realistic outcome.

 

[FAIRTIDES]

According to Joe Schad on SC tonight, he doesn't believe that the NCAA has any grounds to step in. According to him, the NCAA can't just make up rules and apply them as they want....hmmmm isn't that what happened with the APR rule? But I digress.....Penn St needs to be punished for this. If you look at other universities they have been nailed for a lack of institutional control. This whole situation is the epitome of that phrase. I know it's not the current players faults but that doesn't matter. Penn St needs to have their priorities put in order and allowing football to continue is not the way for that to happen. Instead of focusing on the heinous acts that occurred, the university and fans will believe that victories and football will help heal wounds. They couldn't be any further from the truth. Taking down the JoePa statue and any reminder of that is the correct first steps. Not playing football on Saturdays right now.

"Crimes Against Humanity" and to a certain extent "War Crimes" laws/rules didn't really exist in 1945. So, the allies defined them and prosecuted war criminals at Nuremberg and in Japan. I think legal minds call it "ex post facto." If this doesn't qualify as a Crime or Crimes against Humanity, what does?

 

[CL82]

Did you read the handwritten note on 2/12/01? This is Schultz and Spanier.

"--Talked with TMC.
--Reviewed the 1998 history.
--Agreed TMC will meet with JVP and advise.
--We think TMC will meet w/ JS on Friday
--Unless he confesses to having a problem, TMC will indicate that we need to have DPW review the matter as an independent agency concerned with child welfare.
--TMC will keep me posted."

.

I hadn't. It is pretty damning. So the only thing a known pedophile needs to do to continue to prey upon children is to "confess to having a problem"?

Shameful. Just shameful.

 

[upstater]

I hadn't. It is pretty damning. So the only thing a known pedophile needs to do to continue to prey upon children is to "confess to having a problem"?

Shameful. Just shameful.

Yes, absolutely. It's crazy that ALL these guys were in on it.

 

[CL82]

But the lack of institutional control rule pertains to a lack of institutional control over abiding by NCAA rules. They would have to VERY loosely interpret their rules to apply that to what happened here. That's why I think a lengthy investigation will take place here to try and uncover anything that may have clearly violated a specific NCAA rule.

I personally can't see how this went on for 15 years almost without a single dime of hush money being paid. If that is uncovered, especially if it was to multiple people over a long period of time, and depending on where the money came from, the death penalty most definitely becomes a realistic outcome.

Emmert thinks differently and has written to PSU to advise them of same.

 

[SubbaBub]

A home game, dedicated to the victims maybe even all victims, of child abuse. Before the game there should be a moment of silence in rememberence and where PSU says "we're sorry". The gate proceeds, or a significant portion thereof, should also be contributed to the cause.

This already happened at the very first game following Paterno's firing.

They turned their traditional white out into a blue out, in support of child abuse victims and raised if I'm not mistaken over $100,000, might have been $400,000 I forget the exact #.

There was a pre-game moment of silence and prayer led by all players and coaches at midfield.

So, someone needs to explain why these folks should be punished because their leadership failed them right along with the victims.


Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[upstater]

You should just change your name to Roddy Piper, whenever someone gives you an answer, you just change the question.

Taking Paterno's name off the library doesn't make it disappear. I guess you're saying it would mean the Paterno family would want some money back making it a money thing. And I'm dubious about the true effect of " losing world-renowned educators". What "world-renowned educator" would want to sit in chair endowed by someone associated with child abuse anyway?

I do feel badly about that whole selection of American history and literature that is now out of print. I sure hope they have scanners.

But because I care, I have a piece of advice for you, up. Take a week off, go on a Boneyard fast. I will do you a world of good. You are clearly losing your marbles.

How did I change the question. Don't get it. I actually think your POV is totally warped here. Endowments come with contracts, you just don't take the money and give it elsehwere. if you don't want to abide by the contract, you give the money back. Less money for a library means less library services. We're seeing this all over the country. The correlation is absolute and direct.

As for this question: "What "world-renowned educator" would want to sit in chair endowed by someone associated with child abuse anyway?" The answer is: Michael Berube.