Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State?

[Adios]

 

[upstater]

I'm pretty sure Erickson had the interim tag removed a few weeks after he was named interim president.

I thinkt hat was a PR ploy. They initially said there would still be a search. Then others said there would not be. I think the idea is to get through the reports and trials and to set policies, and then search for a new Prez.

 

[uconndogs]

JoePa was a great man. Like all of us, flawed, and in some ways significantly so. So no, I don't think the statue needs to come down.

But, Penn State needs to take a meaningful step to show remorse, to show that the culture that allowed for this atrocity is being addressed and to make a significant contribution to victims of child abuse (not as part of settlements they are about to encounter, but a unilateral contribution).

I think it starts with the football program. A self imposed, multi-year reduction in football scholarships with the savings associated with such to be contributed to such a cause.

A home game, dedicated to the victims maybe even all victims, of child abuse. Before the game there should be a moment of silence in rememberence and where PSU says "we're sorry". The gate proceeds, or a significant portion thereof, should also be contributed to the cause.

Finally, there should be a self imposed ban for one or two seasons on any bowl appearances. Because it shows in some small way that football takes a backseat to doing what is right.

That would be leadership. That would be a start to healing. I am not hopeful.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

The shut down of the PSU football program, for failure to main institutional control and ethics, is most definitely warranted in this case from the NCAA. The collateral damage risk to the institution, is not enough to stop it. And seriously, if shutting down the footblal program for a a year at PSU has SUCH and effect to harm the university? Isn't that evidence enough that the problem - is the football program?

The case of failure to maintain institutional control and ethics is too greivous.

But the lack of institutional control rule pertains to a lack of institutional control over abiding by NCAA rules. They would have to VERY loosely interpret their rules to apply that to what happened here. That's why I think a lengthy investigation will take place here to try and uncover anything that may have clearly violated a specific NCAA rule.

I personally can't see how this went on for 15 years almost without a single dime of hush money being paid. If that is uncovered, especially if it was to multiple people over a long period of time, and depending on where the money came from, the death penalty most definitely becomes a realistic outcome.

 

[FAIRTIDES]

According to Joe Schad on SC tonight, he doesn't believe that the NCAA has any grounds to step in. According to him, the NCAA can't just make up rules and apply them as they want....hmmmm isn't that what happened with the APR rule? But I digress.....Penn St needs to be punished for this. If you look at other universities they have been nailed for a lack of institutional control. This whole situation is the epitome of that phrase. I know it's not the current players faults but that doesn't matter. Penn St needs to have their priorities put in order and allowing football to continue is not the way for that to happen. Instead of focusing on the heinous acts that occurred, the university and fans will believe that victories and football will help heal wounds. They couldn't be any further from the truth. Taking down the JoePa statue and any reminder of that is the correct first steps. Not playing football on Saturdays right now.

"Crimes Against Humanity" and to a certain extent "War Crimes" laws/rules didn't really exist in 1945. So, the allies defined them and prosecuted war criminals at Nuremberg and in Japan. I think legal minds call it "ex post facto." If this doesn't qualify as a Crime or Crimes against Humanity, what does?

 

[CL82]

Did you read the handwritten note on 2/12/01? This is Schultz and Spanier.

"--Talked with TMC.
--Reviewed the 1998 history.
--Agreed TMC will meet with JVP and advise.
--We think TMC will meet w/ JS on Friday
--Unless he confesses to having a problem, TMC will indicate that we need to have DPW review the matter as an independent agency concerned with child welfare.
--TMC will keep me posted."

.

I hadn't. It is pretty damning. So the only thing a known pedophile needs to do to continue to prey upon children is to "confess to having a problem"?

Shameful. Just shameful.

 

[upstater]

I hadn't. It is pretty damning. So the only thing a known pedophile needs to do to continue to prey upon children is to "confess to having a problem"?

Shameful. Just shameful.

Yes, absolutely. It's crazy that ALL these guys were in on it.

 

[CL82]

But the lack of institutional control rule pertains to a lack of institutional control over abiding by NCAA rules. They would have to VERY loosely interpret their rules to apply that to what happened here. That's why I think a lengthy investigation will take place here to try and uncover anything that may have clearly violated a specific NCAA rule.

I personally can't see how this went on for 15 years almost without a single dime of hush money being paid. If that is uncovered, especially if it was to multiple people over a long period of time, and depending on where the money came from, the death penalty most definitely becomes a realistic outcome.

Emmert thinks differently and has written to PSU to advise them of same.

 

[SubbaBub]

A home game, dedicated to the victims maybe even all victims, of child abuse. Before the game there should be a moment of silence in rememberence and where PSU says "we're sorry". The gate proceeds, or a significant portion thereof, should also be contributed to the cause.

This already happened at the very first game following Paterno's firing.

They turned their traditional white out into a blue out, in support of child abuse victims and raised if I'm not mistaken over $100,000, might have been $400,000 I forget the exact #.

There was a pre-game moment of silence and prayer led by all players and coaches at midfield.

So, someone needs to explain why these folks should be punished because their leadership failed them right along with the victims.


Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[upstater]

You should just change your name to Roddy Piper, whenever someone gives you an answer, you just change the question.

Taking Paterno's name off the library doesn't make it disappear. I guess you're saying it would mean the Paterno family would want some money back making it a money thing. And I'm dubious about the true effect of " losing world-renowned educators". What "world-renowned educator" would want to sit in chair endowed by someone associated with child abuse anyway?

I do feel badly about that whole selection of American history and literature that is now out of print. I sure hope they have scanners.

But because I care, I have a piece of advice for you, up. Take a week off, go on a Boneyard fast. I will do you a world of good. You are clearly losing your marbles.

How did I change the question. Don't get it. I actually think your POV is totally warped here. Endowments come with contracts, you just don't take the money and give it elsehwere. if you don't want to abide by the contract, you give the money back. Less money for a library means less library services. We're seeing this all over the country. The correlation is absolute and direct.

As for this question: "What "world-renowned educator" would want to sit in chair endowed by someone associated with child abuse anyway?" The answer is: Michael Berube.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

Emmert thinks differently and has written to PSU to advise them of same.

Did he not just advise PSU that a thorough investigation is going to be done? I can't imagine he'd write them advising what specific violations he thinks there were, and would leave that to be uncovered. My guess is still the NCAA is going on a witch hunt for money. That's ultimately what will do PSU in with the NCAA. I don't think they want to pin their entire punishment on morality and loose interpretations of their rules. As the phrase goes, follow the money.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I'm for shutting it down. You wildly overestimate things however. I don't think you know how inbred and embedded things are. Read Michael Berube's article in the NYT (it';s the only one who wrote) to realize the stakes are much bigger than football.

Realize that PSU gets 4% of budget support from the state, that there is a proposed 50% cut in the works, that Spanier and PSU have fended off a hundred million dollar shale gas institute, that there have been fight-to-the-death political battles over these issues between the educators and the BOT, that whole institutions such as PSU-Altoona have been threatened with shutdown. You think football is going to change a many billions of dollar problem with repercussions into political and business spheres throughout the state. I disagree.



Uh, no. I don't think they'll be able to fix it. I think there is going to be a massive fight. The fact is, because of the kind of secrecy that comes into play when you weigh criminal allegations against worker's rights, there is always going to be a hushed approach to criminal matters. The only question is, how wide is the circuit and who has oversight? The BOT or the faculty? How much input do the lawyers have? I have said this to you repeatedly but it wasn't only Paterno who made the call, but Spanier, and his lawyers, and even a medical doctor who was a mandatory reporter. Clearly, we need people who are not so interested in the university's liabilities involved (the doctor is the only one who doesn't fit the profile of people concerned with the university's bottom line). I think there is huge potential is having a power-sharing arrangement go awry here, but I think the way things have gone, if they make this solely into a football issue (which I do not believe it is as I stated time and time again, esp. given Spanier's pattern of behavior with previous incidents of child abuse), then the pressure to have oversight conducted by more impartial members of the community will dissipate. And you may get something even worse than what you started with.

The only good part of this so far is that all university employees are required to report allegations of child abuse to police immediately, no matter how much craziness that might entail in terms of worker rights. That much is clear. As to how the university then handles such matters, that's totally up in the air.

I think I"m finally starting to get somewhere with you. We agree that things at Penn State are so far gone with at least the culture of the leadership, that major change is necessary. WE simply disagree on how to create that change.

Bravo upstater. Bravo. You're one of the first PSU people I've seen clearly admit, that shutting down the football program is something you favor.

SHutting down the football program, I think, will have a much, much greater impact than I think you do, and we disagree there. I think that the issues you bring up over funding, research projects, industrial commerce and interaction of academic institutions, existed before penn state football, and they'll continue to exist after penn state football, and starting the penn state football program from scratch after a year off, is exactly the kind of method that would be highly effective to generate the public pressure for that culture of the leadership to change dramatically in all those other directions you mention......

, b/c the culture of a community's leadership, will never change, unless the culture that leadership represents, demands it, and unfortunately, all the "important" things you mention, taht are absolutely more important than football, in our society,even beyond Penn State, are less important to the public masses opinion, than entertainment, and football is entertainment.

SHould all the things you mention, (shale deals, funding, closing branches, etc.) matter more than football? Absolutely yes. But you have to ask yourself, in reality, to the general populace? What matters more football? Or all that?

Grantland writer wrote a good piece about it today. read it, if you haven't. The grand experiment, at penn state, with athletics driving academics, and vice versa.... was doing very well, but had a fatal flaw, and it's now completely corrupt, but the balance between academics and athletics, is not something that should be scrapped, you learn from it.

the failure at penn state, was to properly educate everyone in the administration and athletic departments, and also academics about properly reporting crime after the Clery LAW was enacted for universities in the entire country. Had anyone in that institution, been properly instructed in how to report a dangerous criminal like Sandusky, as early as 1991, as it should have happened, then the most powerful people in the college, whould have themselves been educated on how dangerous it was to handle Sandusky the way they chose to.

The people in charge, in 1991, chose not to be properly instructed, and for that, I trully fear, that among all the other things that we now KNOW Sandusky did, because they chose to handle a child predator in that way, that in addition, my guess, is that had they been instructed properly in how to handle a criminal behavior of that nature, years before, when it was mandated by federal law........a child is also dead at his hands, but we will never know that to be true or not.

It's awful. God awful. People had faith that Penn State leadership knew what to do. Penn State leadership always did what was right. In this case, they did not, and consequences are awful.

Penn state can continue that grand experiment - but it's going to take breaking down to the groudn and starting over, and applying lessons learned.

That's what you do when an entire experiment is contaminated. You scrap it all, and start again, and apply what you've learned.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Damn. I wish I had put up odds on Carl actually following through with his ignore threat to upstater.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I couldn't figure out how to do it quick enough, I thought there was some kind link right over..

<--- there

But I don't know how to do it, and I'm actually glad I didn't because look - right up there above....he actually ahs finally said he thinks a shut down of the football program isn't crazy talk.....and just might be warranted.

 

[BHusky]

How did I change the question. Don't get it. I actually think your POV is totally warped here. Endowments come with contracts, you just don't take the money and give it elsehwere. if you don't want to abide by the contract, you give the money back. Less money for a library means less library services. We're seeing this all over the country. The correlation is absolute and direct.

As for this question: "What "world-renowned educator" would want to sit in chair endowed by someone associated with child abuse anyway?" The answer is: Michael Berube.

PSU has a nearly $2B endowment. I am sure many PSU endowers would be willing to transition all or a portion of their endowment dollars to cover anything the school would have to give back from the library of that is what the school chose. $5M (or whatever the number is) in the whole scheme of their total endowment is a drop in the bucket. Many of these endowers have or want no affiliation with the football team and will be happy to help get Paterno's name erased from the school.

 

[Carl Spackler]

This already happened at the very first game following Paterno's firing.

They turned their traditional white out into a blue out, in support of child abuse victims and raised if I'm not mistaken over $100,000, might have been $400,000 I forget the exact #.

There was a pre-game moment of silence and prayer led by all players and coaches at midfield.

So, someone needs to explain why these folks should be punished because their leadership failed them right along with the victims.


Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

The very concept of justice or punishment, when it comes to enforcing it on an institution, or culture, anything beyond a single individual, is going to involve difficulty and undue problems for people associated with that institution or culture that may have had nothing to do with the reason for the punishment. Players will be allowed to play elsewhere, and have the inconvenience of transferring and relocating. COaches will have to find new jobs. Staff and administrator jobs will be cut. Fans won't be able to watch the program, that who's image was protected, by the way Jerry Sandusky was handled by it's officials.

If you intend to figure out a way to change that, how administering justice to an institution won't affect individuals not at fault, please let me know how. If you think that the culture of Penn State football doesn't need severe penalty? Then we don't have anything else to discuss at all, because I strongly disagree.

 

[SubbaBub]

Then I guess we'll have to disagree. Where most of the burn the witches crowd thinks this is a FB problem, I think it's an "Administration reaction to FB" problem.

Even if we find out that Paterno threatened anyone who wanted to make a report, the AD, VP, and President all had the institutional and moral authority to say no, and report it anyway. Those aren't football positions.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[upstater]

PSU has a nearly $2B endowment. I am sure many PSU endowers would be willing to transition all or a portion of their endowment dollars to cover anything the school would have to give back from the library of that is what the school chose. $5M (or whatever the number is) in the whole scheme of their total endowment is a drop in the bucket. Many of these endowers have or want no affiliation with the football team and will be happy to help get Paterno's name erased from the school.

The vast majority of the endowment isn't fungible. Almost all of it is involved with directed giving. The only part that isn't is regular alumni donations. I suppose they could ask alumni to donate toward the renaming of the library. On the other hand, it's far likelier that they would use that money to hold costs (i.e. keep tuition as low as they possibly could).

 

[zls44]

Losing world-renowned educators who occupy the Paterno chairs would.

But, they wouldn't be lost. It's not like those world-renowned educators are going to disappear into the night. They would continue doing tremendous work educating future leaders and scholars.

Just not at Penn State.

And losing those educators would be a huge asset to whatever institution they end up at. The students at that institution would benefit greatly, as well. They wouldn't be lost. They just wouldn't be at Penn State.

After this mess, I fail to see any argument why Penn State deserves to have them in the first place. Because, clearly, they aren't in a position to be affiliated with any world-class educators. They have no moral compass. They have no judgement. They have no shame.

 

[upstater]

SHould all the things you mention, (shale deals, funding, closing branches, etc.) matter more than football? Absolutely yes. But you have to ask yourself, in reality, to the general populace? What matters more football? Or all that?
Grantland writer wrote a good piece about it today. read it, if you haven't. The grand experiment, at penn state, with athletics driving academics, and vice versa.... was doing very well, but had a fatal flaw, and it's now completely corrupt, but the balance between academics and athletics, is not something that should be scrapped, you learn from it.

They matter much much more to the business people on the BOT and the politicians. Surma, Frazier, all these people, were buddy buddy with Spanier and Paterno. Then Corbett came along. The BOT had factions. Look at the money involved. It dwarfs football by a factor of 25. If any of this resulted in the potential resignation of BOT members, then you can bet that new projects would be scuppered. Spanier is still sitting there, no one's touched them though he appears to have perjured himself. Hasn't even been fired by PSU though he's not under investigation. Only the football coach has! So, when people say Paterno is powerful (which he clearly was), at the end of the day he was a football coach who was fired. He wasn't a President who was cutting deals all the time with the BOT. Football is going to be a huge loss for students, not faculty, alumni who cared (which probably isn't even the majority) and fans from around the state. But, the bottom line is money. Once you change the dynamics of power between the politicians, the BOT, the administration and the faculty, you are talking about a lot more money than the football team will bring in over the next century. Who makes the decisions? That's what they are talking about right now at PSU. For all his faults, Spanier was a strong President who built out the school without sacrificing much of the school's mission by maintaining his own power and making his own decisions (much to the consternation of the politicians and some of the BOT, even Paterno who was against the B10 network, but with the tacit approval of the faculty). Meanwhile, he was an enabler of pedophiles--not just one. Now you change the dynamic and suddenly you have a situation like that in Virginia or Illinois.

Read this: http://artvoice.com/issues/v11n20/week_in_review/ub_shale_shills

 

[upstater]

I couldn't figure out how to do it quick enough, I thought there was some kind link right over..

<--- there

But I don't know how to do it, and I'm actually glad I didn't because look - right up there above....he actually ahs finally said he thinks a shut down of the football program isn't crazy talk.....and just might be warranted.

This is nuts. I've said this to you repeatedly, as everyone reading here will acknowledge. Why choose to ignore my previous posts?

 

[upstater]

But, they wouldn't be lost. It's not like those world-renowned educators are going to disappear into the night. They would continue doing tremendous work educating future leaders and scholars.

Just not at Penn State.

And losing those educators would be a huge asset to whatever institution they end up at. The students at that institution would benefit greatly, as well. They wouldn't be lost. They just wouldn't be at Penn State.

After this mess, I fail to see any argument why Penn State deserves to have them in the first place. Because, clearly, they aren't in a position to be affiliated with any world-class educators. They have no moral compass. They have no judgement. They have no shame.

Know of many people donating to named chairs in the Humanities these days? Who is "they" The faculty" The students? You're talking out of your ass and should be ashamed.

 

[Adios]

upstater....do you have any hobbies?

 

[Carl Spackler]

They matter much much more to the business people on the BOT and the politicians. Surma, Frazier, all these people, were buddy buddy with Spanier and Paterno. Then Corbett came along. The BOT had factions. Look at the money involved. It dwarfs football by a factor of 25. If any of this resulted in the potential resignation of BOT members, then you can bet that new projects would be scuppered. Spanier is still sitting there, no one's touched them though he appears to have perjured himself. Hasn't even been fired by PSU though he's not under investigation. Only the football coach has! So, when people say Paterno is powerful (which he clearly was), at the end of the day he was a football coach who was fired. He wasn't a President who was cutting deals all the time with the BOT. Football is going to be a huge loss for students, not faculty, alumni who cared (which probably isn't even the majority) and fans from around the state. But, the bottom line is money. Once you change the dynamics of power between the politicians, the BOT, the administration and the faculty, you are talking about a lot more money than the football team will bring in over the next century. Who makes the decisions? That's what they are talking about right now at PSU. For all his faults, Spanier was a strong President who built out the school without sacrificing much of the school's mission by maintaining his own power and making his own decisions (much to the consternation of the politicians and some of the BOT, even Paterno who was against the B10 network, but with the tacit approval of the faculty). Meanwhile, he was an enabler of pedophiles--not just one. Now you change the dynamic and suddenly you have a situation like that in Virginia or Illinois.

Read this: http://artvoice.com/issues/v11n20/week_in_review/ub_shale_shills

This is just going to spawn another 50 pages. Oh well. Does that all powerful board of trustees at Penn State, that is so corrupt right now, exist...if not for 6 decades of Penn State football under Joe Paterno?

You're nuts too, you know. Just different nuts than me.

 

[Adios]

God Almighty. When is this Penn State stuff going to end?! Anyone want a Jerry Sandusky 1986 championship ring??

 

[upstater]

upstater....do you have any hobbies?

A few. Right now I'm correcting papers on my computer. If you were doing the same, you'd be checking into sites every 30 minutes too! I actually bought this piece of software called Mac Freedom for $10 to prevent me from doing this. But then I almost went insane so I don't use it anymore!

 

[upstater]

This is just going to spawn another 50 pages. Oh well. Does that all powerful board of trustees at Penn State, that is so corrupt right now, exist...if not for 6 decades of Penn State football under Joe Paterno?

You're nuts too, you know. Just different nuts than me.

So, you think PSU would be a podunk cow college without bigtime college football? Like UConn?

 

[Adios]

So, you think PSU would be a podunk cow college without bigtime college football? Like UConn?

Both schools have similar origins, as agricultural schools. PSU is just way more out in the boonies. Hartford was the richest city in the US until the Great Depression.

 

[Adios]

A few. Right now I'm correcting papers on my computer. If you were doing the same, you'd be checking into sites every 30 minutes too! I actually bought this piece of software called Mac Freedom for $10 to prevent me from doing this. But then I almost went insane so I don't use it anymore!

Fair enough. Just wondering. lol

 

[Carl Spackler]

So, you think PSU would be a podunk cow college without bigtime college football? Like UConn?

Oooo...ooooo......is uconn a podunk cow college to you!? Were we up until 2003?

would uconn be a podunk cow college without just under 3 decades of Jim Calhoun's b-ball program?

What would the UConn BOT look like right now, what would the finances of the university look like (UConn), what factions and loopholes would exist in the administration, and ties to state government and state businesses be like..... if Calhoun was a football coach?