Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State?

[CL82]

Stated it repeatedly in this thread. Stated it at the start, stated it a few weeks ago with the emails, stated it again and again.

I don't think any of it is appropriate or logical because what happened so outweighs concerns with extracurricular sports. But that being said, I think shutting down football for one year can be done out of moral opprobrium. As for propriety, that's a different story. Like I said, I don't really care. I tend to think this is a problem of PSU's administrative culture. The top guys like Spanier and Schultz were in CYA mode because of concern with potential liabilities. Whereas Paterno was more concerned with Sandusky's well-being. How do you ameliorate that except by firing all concerned, cleaning house, then re-writing rules? (To make sure it never happens again? No, that's not possible. But to try harder at making it not happen again). What to do with the football program is so secondary and frankly not important.

As I've noted elsewhere in this thread, you do it by making the cost of not correcting it devastating. The only way to change the cost benefit analysis is to sanction the university severly. The death penalty should be a part of that equation.

 

[Waquoit]

You are right. Penn State has been punished enough already.

I agree. No punishment could ever be as bad as they way they feel today. They feel really, really bad. They send their thoughts and prayers to all that were molested.

 

[CL82]

"After talking it over with Joe, I'm uncomfortable about our plan."

This.

 

[upstater]

"After talking it over with Joe, I'm uncomfortable about our plan."

Uh-huh. And?

 

[ZooCougar]

If the NCAA and Penn State do nothing, then they will both effectively be saying that it's ok to cover up virtually anything in order to protect your precious football program.

 

[CL82]

Uh-huh. And?

...and then they did exactly what Joe Pa wanted - they did not report a sexual assault by the former PSU coach to the authorities but instead just told the pedophile that the assault had been witnessed putting the victim in further jeopardy, as noted in the Freeh report.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Uh-huh. And?

I will continue for a moment, b/c I find it shocking that a professed higher education professional can be reacting this way....but Jimmy was referring to an exact quote by the AD, regarding the plan to report Sandusky to proper authorities, subject material that I posted, for the second time today, in #402 above.

 

[upstater]

As I've noted elsewhere in this thread, you do it by making the cost of not correcting it devastating. The only way to change the cost benefit analysis is to sanction the university severly. The death penalty should be a part of that equation.

It won't make any difference.

The university is not athletics, first of all. Secondly, even the proper procedures in place for the future (s they've now been implemented at PSU and also other schools) won't prevent it simply because there's always a balance with worker's rights. Cost benefit? Universities are routinely sued by employees. No matter the costs of paying the victims, it's hard to believe they will impact future administrators.

The one thing we know, there is no gray area when it comes to child abuse. Rules have been changed now and everyone must report to campus police. Now, that's doesn't mean people are criminally liable because one must be a mandatory reporter. But it does mean people can be sanctioned in the workplace. I suppose for universities, it's a good thing that there are relatively few minors around campus other than in daycare, because if that new rule were applied, say, to the student body, you can bet that the school would lose more money in civil suits by applying the rule than by keeping current regulations. This is precisely why schools have changed the rules to only treat allegations of child abuse.

As a teacher, I think it's a shame that the money to pay the victims ISN'T going to come out of the athletics department.

It should. But instead, it's going to come out of the pockets of students through tuition. It can't come out of the endowment for legal reasons, nor out of the research budget. It has to come out of tuition. But if there were somehow a way to take it out of football, I would be for it.

Someone would have to explain how such a plan would work. Maybe cap coaches pay for a long time (decade or more)? Maybe cut recruiting? You'd have to look at the budget.

 

[ZooCougar]

Uh huh and..... Let's intimidate the janitors and anyone else who saw anything.

 

[upstater]

...and then they did exactly what Joe Pa wanted - they did not report a sexual assault by the former PSU coach to the authorities but instead just told the pedophile that the assault had been witnessed putting the victim in further jeopardy, as noted in the Freeh report.

Yes, they went along with it. I just didn't see the overlord weigh in.

 

[Carl Spackler]

...and then they did exactly what Joe Pa wanted - they did not report a sexual assault by the former PSU coach to the authorities but instead just told the pedophile that the assault had been witnessed putting the victim in further jeopardy, as noted in the Freeh report.

For this, I anticipate that those two individuals who are still living, of the three involved that were discussing the pedophile, will be spending significant time behind bars.

That still, will not be enough to change the culture of Penn State though.

 

[jrazz12]

10 minutes. The over is in the money.

It was 6 minutes actually, you were right on. 9:22 to 9:28. We'd need a better time stamp to get more specific for the half minute. I had the under though

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Uh-huh. And?

I think you're a bright guy and you've kept a level head throughout this whole ordeal.....but I am baffled by your position here.

 

[upstater]

I will continue for a moment, b/c I find it shocking that a professed higher education professional can be reacting this way....but Jimmy was referring to an exact quote by the AD, regarding the plan to report Sandusky to proper authorities, subject material that I posted, for the second time today, in #402 above.

This quote has been mentioned in this thread for weeks now. It's not a revelation. In fact, there was no new information today regarding Paterno covering up for Sandusky along with the others. It was the exact same information. Why would you say, "the second time today?" This has been out there for weeks.

What I find shocking is that you don't see this.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Yes, they went along with it. I just didn't see the overlord weigh in.

Are you denying that Paterno changed the plan, and made the call NOT to report Sandusky?

 

[ZooCougar]

The old defensive coordinator raped kids, and the head coach swept it under the carpet. But, it's not about football. Nope.

 

[upstater]

I think you're a bright guy and you've kept a level head throughout this whole ordeal.....but I am baffled by your position here.

I think they were all in on it, all equally culpable. Curley because really was Paterno's minion, that needs to be said. But the President and Schultz should have gone against the advice. They were their own people, and not only that, Spanier in particular made football program decisions in the past over Paterno's objections. You can't tell me that in the Spanier response to that email that he was at all against the idea. In fact, he remarked that it was quite reasonable and even added that he wanted to be "humane" toward Sandusky. How this can be interpreted as anything other than an agreed cover-up is hard to fathom.

 

[upstater]

Are you denying that Paterno changed the plan, and made the call NOT to report Sandusky?

Yes. I stated my position above. They all made the call together. That much is obvious. In fact, from what we know of the emails (and we don't even know if there were face-to-face discussions), Joe didn't even talk to Spanier and Schultz about going direct to Sandusky and not authorities. They agreed with Curley after Curley talked to Paterno. They all made that same decision together.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

If the NCAA and Penn State do nothing, then they will both effectively be saying that it's ok to cover up virtually anything in order to protect your precious football program.

I don't think they'll do nothing. I think first, they're going to let the legal system run its course with the administrators, assessing a penalty before the trials of those people are done would be incorrect. In the meantime, I think they're going to investigate this into the ground to find every little possible detail they can find that could potentially be a violation, since they'll be under harsh public pressure to do something. The main things I think they'll look for is whether players/recruits knew, if there was money paid to them (or anyone) to keep quiet, whether this leaked into the academic side of things, if professors knew, etc. I would say if there is a financial element that is uncovered here, yes, a death penalty is quite likely. If there is not, I think they'll enforce some kind of punishment, probably on a loose interpretation of the lack of institutional control rule, but I don't know that it will involve the death penalty, since the precedent for using that is really tied to improper use of money, though that could be changed. That said, make no mistake, Penn State will be indirectly punished extraordinarily hard by this whole scandal through recruiting, scheduling, and TV. Do you think ESPN and the like are chomping at the bit to televise Penn State games? Do you think schools are lining up to schedule series' with PSU? Do you think big time recruits want to be anywhere near this program right now?

 

[freescooter]

Oh come on upstater...there are really really damning things in that report. It is pretty clear that nobody was willing to stand up to Joe when he didn't want the autorities contacted. Just like when he didn't want the football program to be bothered with a little thing like a mandated program on how to identify sexual abuse (and this i believe was AFTER Sanduky's initial investigation for the 1998 incident) or lots of other things. This was a case of a legendary coach over-ruling his "superiors" and those superiors lacking the guts to stand up to him and do the right thing. You're right in a sense that the entire leadership was a mess. But the president, the Ad and The VP all took their marchin gorders form Joe Paterno on this.

 

[ZooCougar]

Not sure. ESPN could play the morbid curiosity angle, and people are also really stupid in general.


But the unofficial scorn simply isn't enough. But this school should not be allowed to live this down any time soon.

I don't think they'll do nothing. I think first, they're going to let the legal system run its course with the administrators, assessing a penalty before the trials of those people are done would be incorrect. In the meantime, I think they're going to investigate this into the ground to find every little possible detail they can find that could potentially be a violation, since they'll be under harsh public pressure to do something. The main things I think they'll look for is whether players/recruits knew, if there was money paid to them (or anyone) to keep quiet, whether this leaked into the academic side of things, if professors knew, etc. I would say if there is a financial element that is uncovered here, yes, a death penalty is quite likely. If there is not, I think they'll enforce some kind of punishment, probably on a loose interpretation of the lack of institutional control rule, but I don't know that it will involve the death penalty, since the precedent for using that is really tied to improper use of money, though that could be changed. That said, make no mistake, Penn State will be indirectly punished extraordinarily hard by this whole scandal through recruiting, scheduling, and TV. Do you think ESPN and the like are chomping at the bit to televise Penn State games? Do you think schools are lining up to schedule series' with PSU? Do you think big time recruits want to be anywhere near this program right now?

 

[Carl Spackler]

I can't keep doing this.

THe culture of Penn state is at fault here. The clown at CBS wrote a piece today that the entire culture of college football is at fault, what frigging nincompoop looking for publicity, reckless.

I guarantee that PSU people will latch onto that with everythign they've got...if we're going to get punished, all of college football should be punished. Upstater already hinted at here by deflecting quesstions to "don't you guys know that all D1 programs are fiefdoms?

No, not all D1 programs are fiefdoms, and certainly not all D1 programs would willingly decide to cover up a serial child rapist to protect the image of their football program. But the fact that one would, only one - would -, is enough that the governing structure of division 1 football needs to change it's mode of operation, and bring down the hammer.

So that the risk / benefit analysis, as eloquently presented by others here, is never out of proportion again.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Oh come on upstater...there are really really damning things in that report. It is pretty clear that nobody was willing to stand up to Joe when he didn't want the autorities contacted. Just like when he didn't want the football program to be bothered with a little thing like a mandated program on how to identify sexual abuse (and this i believe was AFTER Sanduky's initial investigation for the 1998 incident) or lots of other things. This was a case of a legendary coach over-ruling his "superiors" and those superiors lacking the guts to stand up to him and do the right thing. You're right in a sense that the entire leadership was a mess. But the president, the Ad and The VP all took their marchin gorders form Joe Paterno on this.

It's like when 3 wise guys devise a plan.....then bring it to the mob boss who poo poo's the plan and comes up with his own......and now everyone is on the same page. His page.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Oh come on upstater...there are really really damning things in that report. It is pretty clear that nobody was willing to stand up to Joe when he didn't want the autorities contacted. Just like when he didn't want the football program to be bothered with a little thing like a mandated program on how to identify sexual abuse (and this i believe was AFTER Sanduky's initial investigation for the 1998 incident) or lots of other things. This was a case of a legendary coach over-ruling his "superiors" and those superiors lacking the guts to stand up to him and do the right thing. You're right in a sense that the entire leadership was a mess. But the president, the Ad and The VP all took their marchin gorders form Joe Paterno on this.

Upstater didn't respond to my comment about it earlier. But I don't believe he's had the courage to actually read the full report.

 

[upstater]

Oh come on upstater...there are really really damning things in that report. It is pretty clear that nobody was willing to stand up to Joe when he didn't want the autorities contacted. Just like when he didn't want the football program to be bothered with a little thing like a mandated program on how to identify sexual abuse (and this i believe was AFTER Sanduky's initial investigation for the 1998 incident) or lots of other things. This was a case of a legendary coach over-ruling his "superiors" and those superiors lacking the guts to stand up to him and do the right thing. You're right in a sense that the entire leadership was a mess. But the president, the Ad and The VP all took their marchin gorders form Joe Paterno on this.

You realize that Spanier overruled Paterno on football many times? B10 channel they had a falling out on that one. Paterno wanted to veto it. You think Spanier and he had a chummy relationship? Spanier knocked heads with him multiple times and won. On football matters. Yes, he did show up at Paterno's door asking for his resignation in 2005, and yes Paterno duped him that time. But he ws still the President.

There is no doubt Paterno ruled the football program like a fiefdom. I never believed otherwise long before this story broke. But you're trying to tell me Paterno had a mindmeld on the university president? No way. And beyond that, you can see a consistent pattern of Spanier playing CYA with OTHER abuse allegations.

I can't see how you can possibly read that email by Spanier in response to Curley and say that he was being lead by the chin by Paterno. My god, Spanier even so much as said he thought the plan was reasonable, and that they should be "humane" to Sandusky, and beyond that, he even expressed his own concerns about legal liabilities!!! Beyond that, in none of these emails, as Freeh himself has even said, was there ever ANY concern shown about the children and victims themselves. When offered the name of the child in the shower in 2001, Curley said he didn't want to know it. This should tell you EVERYTHING about the mindset of these four men. Hard to believe that Paterno overruled anyone given the context of ALL the emails and all the information.