Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State?

[mattp]

Who is the governing body that can impose such penalties on a religious organization?

the IRS controls their tax exemption, but that's besides the point. the point is that you shouldn't punish an entire organization b/c of the actions of a few individuals. you should punish the individuals

 

[mattp]

First of all, those of us advocating the death penalty are only asking that the football program get shut down for a few years. People like you that conflate the football program with the university are part of the reason Penn State finds itself in this position in the first place.

Second of all, the Catholic Church is a useful guideline for what we think will happen, but irrelevant in terms of what we think SHOULD happen. Penn State's problems are Penn State's problems, and I do not get why you, WingU and Upstater continue to try to defend Penn State through these tangential arguments.

could you please point out a single item i wrote that could be construed as defending them? if not STFU

 

[mattp]

I think the Catholic Church - specifically the Vatican - should have been punished much harder than they were/are. The problem, as there appears to be right now, with PSU, unless the NCAA, Big 10, and whatever other external influences possibly can.......but the problem is that there are few (or in the case of the Vatican) No sources where punishment can come from other htan paying exhorbitant amounts of money.

If the catholic church I attend were found to have priests sexually abusing young boys, NO, I would not be opposed to the church closing for a period of time. I would go elsewhere for mass anyway for a while, until I was convinced that the place was clean, if they every opened the same building up again anyway.

The church isn't the building anyway.

i didn't ask if anyone has the authority, that's irrelevant to the topic. we're talking about morals and what should be done, not what can be done. my point is that if you don't think the entire catholic church should shutter it's doors for the actions of a few, why should the entire AD, or football team be shut down for the actions of a few? you're position is inconsistent. i do applaud you for at least answering the question, apparently a few posters were unable to do that and instead thought calling me a PSU defender would advance the debate.

personally i'm surprised that the position of holding individuals accountable for their actions is such a controversial side in this. it seems some people care more about punishing PSU football than Sandusky himself or his cadre of enablers

 

[Carl Spackler]

Even though my post just above yours says Paterno's reputation is stained and ruined. Uh-huh. That blows your credibility right out of the water in the very first line.

Seriously, you either need new glasses or your are delusional.

Damn it, I'm like Pacino in godfather 3, they keep pulling me back in. I don't give a that you think that Paterno's reputation is now stained. If you couldn't admit that his rep is forever stained, now, I'd kick your ass.

What you don't seem to be able to acknowledge, is that protecting the image of the football program is the reason it all happened. The cover up. last time we got into this, it was my opinion only I had to go on, now the info is public.

You keep trying to put it on the administration, I"mk going to look at the information, and I guarantee when I find, it, that whatever you're talking about regarding the cover up of a professor and child molestation, is somethign that happened after 1998, after it was done the first time with Sandusky.

But to you - that makes it an administration problem, not somethign that was created by the football program and it's priorities.

and is the very reason that Penn State must be punished is that it was Joe Paterno's decision, to ignore the children, and put Sandusky in a closet and put a muzzle on everybody, that is directly responsible for every child that suffered at Sandusky's actions from 1998 till he was put in handcuffs.

Maybe you have acknowledge it somewhere in this marathon, that Paterno is responsible, and that it was all done to protect the image of the football program.

I don't care anymore. What I care about, is that children suffered, unnecessarily, and most definietly avoidably, and Joe Paterno knew the man's behavior, and did nothing to stop it, and the information is public record now, that paterno lied to the grand jury, that paterno actively was involved in changing the reporting procedures, and not reporting Sandusky, that paterno decided that the PSU football program, was not subject to mandatory training in reporting according to state law, on and on.

A. I really hope the hammer comes down on Penn State football quick. It's the only way to ENSURE change in that culture in central pennsylvania.

 

[Carl Spackler]

i didn't ask if anyone has the authority, that's irrelevant to the topic. we're talking about morals and what should be done, not what can be done. my point is that if you don't think the entire catholic church should shutter it's doors for the actions of a few, why should the entire AD, or football team be shut down for the actions of a few? you're position is inconsistent. i do applaud you for at least answering the question, apparently a few posters were unable to do that and instead thought calling me a PSU defender would advance the debate.

personally i'm surprised that the position of holding individuals accountable for their actions is such a controversial side in this. it seems some people care more about punishing PSU football than Sandusky himself or his cadre of enablers

Well, I suppose the thing to ask, is whether or not you think the Catholic church has changed, the culture has changed. I think it has. But that aside, i think a morality discussion, and what should be done, is useless in either situation, the vatican and it's reach, or Joe Paterno's city state. There's no question that everything that happened in both institutions, was morally reprehensible and should be deserving of the greatest punishment possible. DOn't mean to be offensive, but I prefer to discuss things that can happen in reality.

It's entirely about what can be done, and by who, when you're going to talke punishment. I think the NCAA might have enough to go on now, without amending the 430+ page monster of a manual, not sure. I think the Big 10 conference has some teeth now. I think that federal and state authorities ahve some criminal matters to pursue with individuals.

Why should the entire football program be shut down for the actions of a few? You must be a psych or sociology major.

Do the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?

The football program should be shut down, becuase protecting the image of the football program, is the reason that at least 8 children known of, were sexually assaulted, and their innocence lost forever to the evil that is Jerry Sandusky.

The needs of those few, the justice for those few, most definitely for me, outweighs the need of the many.

I wrote about good and evil, earlier today. When you talk about the shutting down the entire catholic church, I do think, that had the Pope, stood in the square, and said that all catholic churches in the world would be closing doors for a short period of time, to evaluate what the hell was going on, and then re=open after fixing it? after the first case of coverup was discovered - do you think that would be right? Proportional? No.

AFter a few dozen cases? Yes - I would have liked to see that. There is no pressure that could be exerted on the Vatican to do that.

I would like to see PSU voluntarily suspend the football program too. There is no reason for them to do so internally, just like the Vatican, but in this case, unlike the vatican, external pressure can get them to do it.

THe needs of those few children, outweigh the needs of that football program for justice to be done.

I think.

 

[traitor71]

Why are you guys even sports fans? You honestly believe football isn't a fiefdom at D1 schools? Man, are you guys naive.

But I thought Penn State was different than anyone else. At least that is what I have heard for years, at least from their fans anyway. I guess they are different in the sense that they allowed child rape to continue for fear of damaging the football program if discovered. They certainly seem to have that one all to themselves.

 

[CL82]

It won't make any difference.



It should. But instead, it's going to come out of the pockets of students through tuition. It can't come out of the endowment for legal reasons, nor out of the research budget. It has to come out of tuition. But if there were somehow a way to take it out of football, I would be for it.

There is a way it's called the death penalty. No travel - available funds, reduced or no associated food costs for the players that will transfer, and of course, no scholarships for those players who transfer.

So, there, you've got your methodology. Are you now going to support it?

 

[CL82]

Well, I suppose the thing to ask, is whether or not you think the Catholic church has changed, the culture has changed. I think it has. But that aside, i think a morality discussion, and what should be done, is useless in either situation, the vatican and it's reach, or Joe Paterno's city state. There's no question that everything that happened in both institutions, was morally reprehensible and should be deserving of the greatest punishment possible. DOn't mean to be offensive, but I prefer to discuss things that can happen in reality.

It's entirely about what can be done, and by who, when you're going to talke punishment. I think the NCAA might have enough to go on now, without amending the 430+ page monster of a manual, not sure. I think the Big 10 conference has some teeth now. I think that federal and state authorities ahve some criminal matters to pursue with individuals.

Why should the entire football program be shut down for the actions of a few? You must be a psych or sociology major.

Do the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?

The football program should be shut down, becuase protecting the image of the football program, is the reason that at least 8 children known of, were sexually assaulted, and their innocence lost forever to the evil that is Jerry Sandusky.

The needs of those few, the justice for those few, most definitely for me, outweighs the need of the many.

I wrote about good and evil, earlier today. When you talk about the shutting down the entire catholic church, I do think, that had the Pope, stood in the square, and said that all catholic churches in the world would be closing doors for a short period of time, to evaluate what the hell was going on, and then re=open after fixing it? after the first case of coverup was discovered - do you think that would be right? Proportional? No.

AFter a few dozen cases? Yes - I would have liked to see that. There is no pressure that could be exerted on the Vatican to do that.

I would like to see PSU voluntarily suspend the football program too. There is no reason for them to do so internally, just like the Vatican, but in this case, unlike the vatican, external pressure can get them to do it.

THe needs of those few children, outweigh the needs of that football program for justice to be done.

I think.

Take the Catholic church debate to the Cesspool. It is an "everybody does it" distraction from the discussion of the Penn State debacle.

 

[uconnbill]

With all these charges and findings against those in charge at Penn ST they have to face a stiff penalty. Not sure the death penalty, but lose of scholarships, no post season plus restitution to those hurt by the lack of oversite by the university

 

[UCFBfan]

According to Joe Schad on SC tonight, he doesn't believe that the NCAA has any grounds to step in. According to him, the NCAA can't just make up rules and apply them as they want....hmmmm isn't that what happened with the APR rule? But I digress.....Penn St needs to be punished for this. If you look at other universities they have been nailed for a lack of institutional control. This whole situation is the epitome of that phrase. I know it's not the current players faults but that doesn't matter. Penn St needs to have their priorities put in order and allowing football to continue is not the way for that to happen. Instead of focusing on the heinous acts that occurred, the university and fans will believe that victories and football will help heal wounds. They couldn't be any further from the truth. Taking down the JoePa statue and any reminder of that is the correct first steps. Not playing football on Saturdays right now.

 

[upstater]

Damn it, I'm like Pacino in godfather 3, they keep pulling me back in. I don't give a that you think that Paterno's reputation is now stained. If you couldn't admit that his rep is forever stained, now, I'd kick your ass.

What you don't seem to be able to acknowledge, is that protecting the image of the football program is the reason it all happened. The cover up. last time we got into this, it was my opinion only I had to go on, now the info is public.

You keep trying to put it on the administration, I"mk going to look at the information, and I guarantee when I find, it, that whatever you're talking about regarding the cover up of a professor and child molestation, is somethign that happened after 1998, after it was done the first time with Sandusky.

But to you - that makes it an administration problem, not somethign that was created by the football program and it's priorities.

and is the very reason that Penn State must be punished is that it was Joe Paterno's decision, to ignore the children, and put Sandusky in a closet and put a muzzle on everybody, that is directly responsible for every child that suffered at Sandusky's actions from 1998 till he was put in handcuffs.

Maybe you have acknowledge it somewhere in this marathon, that Paterno is responsible, and that it was all done to protect the image of the football program.

I don't care anymore. What I care about, is that children suffered, unnecessarily, and most definietly avoidably, and Joe Paterno knew the man's behavior, and did nothing to stop it, and the information is public record now, that paterno lied to the grand jury, that paterno actively was involved in changing the reporting procedures, and not reporting Sandusky, that paterno decided that the PSU football program, was not subject to mandatory training in reporting according to state law, on and on.

A. I really hope the hammer comes down on Penn State football quick. It's the only way to ENSURE change in that culture in central pennsylvania.

You really should have taken a break. What's next? 6'5 250?

 

[upstater]

There is a way it's called the death penalty. No travel - available funds, reduced or no associated food costs for the players that will transfer, and of course, no scholarships for those players who transfer.

So, there, you've got your methodology. Are you now going to support it?

I wouldn't care because there are bigger fish to fry. But obviously that's not the methodology for paying victims. They were one of the few programs in the black.

 

[RS9999X]

I didn't find much new about Paterno in the report. He might have suggested they send Sandusky to counciling instead of reporting to DPW but that part isn't documented and is vague as to how he contributed to that Revised Response of Feb 27th 2001

The rest are culpable. Freeh obviously had an agenda as did the PSU staff.

One glaring point: PSU was never proactive on contacting victims to offer them help.

 

[BlueMAB]

One glaring point: PSU was never proactive on contacting victims to offer them help.

That would be an admission of guilt and open them up to liability issues.

I'm not saying that was the right decision, just my opinion on why that was never done. Obviously they are liable.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

I don't mean to make light of anything about this but.....I'm watching Jay Paterno on SC right now and by God if he doesn't remind me of Edsall.

 

[CL82]

I wouldn't care because there are bigger fish to fry. But obviously that's not the methodology for paying victims. They were one of the few programs in the black.

You asked for a method for football to pay the victims. That was it. So are you in favor of it?

 

[upstater]

You asked for a method for football to pay the victims. That was it. So are you in favor of it?

I replied already. It's not a method if there is no income from football. Food and scholarships are reimbursed to the school by the athletic department. There are no student fees or direct support funneled from academics to football.

 

[Waquoit]

I wonder what Phil Knight, after embarassing himself at Paterno's memorial service, has to say about his hero today?

He doesn't give a . The guy is totally amoral.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

According to Joe Schad on SC tonight, he doesn't believe that the NCAA has any grounds to step in. According to him, the NCAA can't just make up rules and apply them as they want....hmmmm isn't that what happened with the APR rule? But I digress.....Penn St needs to be punished for this. If you look at other universities they have been nailed for a lack of institutional control. This whole situation is the epitome of that phrase. I know it's not the current players faults but that doesn't matter. Penn St needs to have their priorities put in order and allowing football to continue is not the way for that to happen. Instead of focusing on the heinous acts that occurred, the university and fans will believe that victories and football will help heal wounds. They couldn't be any further from the truth. Taking down the JoePa statue and any reminder of that is the correct first steps. Not playing football on Saturdays right now.

Unfortunately, from everything I've read, he's RIGHT. Everyone here is (rightfully) reacting on emotion rather than facts. The NCAA cannot set a precedent of making up rules and issuing penalties retroactively (APR, I know..) or else the system will go out of control. That's why I think they're going to investigate this extremely thoroughly to find any and every possible violation, specifically any related to money. But they're not going to issue penalties simply because PSU "should" face them because we all don't like what they did, if they didn't break any NCAA rule.

 

[uconnfan68]

Unfortunately, from everything I've read, he's RIGHT. Everyone here is (rightfully) reacting on emotion rather than facts. The NCAA cannot set a precedent of making up rules and issuing penalties retroactively (APR, I know..) or else the system will go out of control. That's why I think they're going to investigate this extremely thoroughly to find any and every possible violation, specifically any related to money. But they're not going to issue penalties simply because PSU "should" face them because we all don't like what they did, if they didn't break any NCAA rule.

Someone from UConn needs be heard by the world about this BS about the NCAA not making rules retroactive.

 

[nimzovich]

Unfortunately, from everything I've read, he's RIGHT. Everyone here is (rightfully) reacting on emotion rather than facts. The NCAA cannot set a precedent of making up rules and issuing penalties retroactively (APR, I know..) or else the system will go out of control. That's why I think they're going to investigate this extremely thoroughly to find any and every possible violation, specifically any related to money. But they're not going to issue penalties simply because PSU "should" face them because we all don't like what they did, if they didn't break any NCAA rule.

I'm not voicing an opinion on whether or not the NCAA should levy penalties. But Scahd's (and your) interpretation seems completely at odds with the facts. Have you read the letter Emmert sent to Penn State in November, clearly telling them why they are at risk for being found guilty of lack of institutional control? Emmert has already listed the applicable rules. It is very clear that the NCAA can act if they wish. And with public sentiment generally against Penn St, it could certainly happen.

http://www.psu.edu/ur/2011/NCAA.pdf

in the letter, Emmert invokes the following rules as possibly applicable and required Penn St to explain why they were not in violation. Penn St may have a very difficult time if Spanier is indicted along with Curley and Scultz. It isn't Sandusky, but the coverup that could eventually sink them.

Article 2.1: The principle of institutional control and responsibility -- "it is the responsibility of each member institution to control its intercollegiate athletics program in compliance with the rules and regulations of the Association. The institution's president or chancellor is responsible for the administration of all aspects of the athletics program. ... The institution's responsibility for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program includes responsibility for the actions of its staff members and for the actions of any other individual or organization engaged in activities promoting the athletics interests of the institution."
Article 2.4: The principle of sportsmanship and ethical conduct -- athletics should "promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with these athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty and responsibility."
Articles 6.01.1 and 6.4: General principle of institutional control (6.01.1); and Responsibility for actions of outside entities (6.4).
Bylaw 10.01.1: Ethical conduct, general principle of honesty and sportsmanship.
Bylaw 10.1: Unethical conduct -- "Unethical conduct by a prospective or enrolled student-athlete or a current or former institutional staff member, which includes any individual who performs work for the institution or the athletics department even if he or she does not receive compensation for such work, may include, but is not limited to" followed by a list of 10 possible situations. Emmert's letter says untheical conduct "is not limited to" just the 10 scenarios delineated".
Bylaws 11.1.1 and 11.1.2.1: Conducts of athletics personnel with regards to honesty and sportsmanship (11.1.1); and Responsibility of head coach (11.1.2.1) -- The head coach bylaw states, "It shall be the responsibility of an institution's head coach to promote an atmosphere for compliance within the program supervised by the coach and to monitor the activities regarding compliance of all assistant coaches and other administrators involved with the program who report directly or indirectly to the coach."
Bylaw 19.01.2: General principles of exemplary conduct.

 

[UCFBfan]

The part of this whole thing that makes me sick, besides the actual acts, is how people are still defending JoePa. If you read any of the message boards or FaceBook posts in response to their official page releasing the report, it's sickening how delusional these people are. Look, my family has been a die hard PSU family since before I was born. My grandmother lives in State College. But there's a reality here that those people need to see. Some posters went as far as saying that people need to stay out of PSU's business and that JoePa will always be remembered fondly. I literally felt sick to my stomach. All they wanted to do was return to football, win games, and forget all of this. Guess what folks? It doesn't work like that and the university, specifically the football program will be scarred for a very long time, NCAA violations or not. My parents have come around on this but my grandmother is still not accepting it. That shows you just how much the people in that town are under the illusion that football is king. The students and all invovled with Penn St need to wake up and realize that horrible things happened and football is not going to be able to just move on and be ok. Whether they are hit with NCAA sanctions or not....my only fear is that if the NCAA doesn't step in, everyone related to PSU (fans, students, alumni, etc) will feel that it's been put in the past and they can just move on with their tradition and football. That's an insult to the victims and the rest of the country who can see what these monsters did to cover up the even bigger monster.

 

[UCername]

fairly certain this falls under lack of institutional control:
"Our most saddening and sobering finding is the total disregard for the safety and welfare of Sandusky's child victims by the most senior leaders at Penn State,"

 

[uconnric]

fairly certain this falls under lack of institutional control:
"Our most saddening and sobering finding is the total disregard for the safety and welfare of Sandusky's child victims by the most senior leaders at Penn State,"

If this doesn't qualify as "lack of institutional control", then nothing does. The lack of action by Penn State (Paterno, Spanier, et al) was for the purpose of protecting Paterno, the football program, and the university from the consequences of adverse publicity and goring the sacred cow. Their lack of action protected the football program and therefore the NCAA is well within its bounds to act.

 

[mattp]

quote="Carl Spackler, post: 280128, member: 1038"]
Why should the entire football program be shut down for the actions of a few? You must be a psych or sociology major.

Do the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?

The football program should be shut down, becuase protecting the image of the football program, is the reason that at least 8 children known of, were sexually assaulted, and their innocence lost forever to the evil that is Jerry Sandusky.

The needs of those few, the justice for those few, most definitely for me, outweighs the need of the many.

.[/quote]

it has nothing to do with needs b/c we're not talking about needs. we're talking about whether we should punish the individuals or the organization. several secret service agents were recently caught with hookers in South America. do we punish those that acted irresponsibly, or do we punish the entire secret service? Nixon and G Gordon Liddy acted irresponsibly in trying to preserve their political party and win elections, should we have disbanded the GOP, or punished those that acted irresponsibly? to me it's obvious that you punish the individuals responsible.