Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State?

[Carl Spackler]

I disagree with you. Why would you want me to write something about which I totally disagree with you? It's bizarre.

I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.

I rest my case. Death penalty to penn state football program. 1 year, no football, forfeit all athletic department revenue - 1 year.

It's the only way to change the culture.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Their positions are unpaid and largely ceremonial. Other than doing to Governor's bidding politically, vis-a-vis PSU as an institution, they are largely irrelevant. But the fact that you're saying "you know" and yet you posted what you did in your above response must mean that you have a lot of doubts about the veracity of Freeh report. It's an attempt to sweep it all under the rug? That's what you're saying? How is the Freeh report an attempt to hide the facts?

In all due respect, seriously, WTF is this? You know what never mind.


The fact that you, as not only a supporter of PSU, but also a higher education professional of some sort - self professed - can't acknowledge publicly that PSU should seriously face the reality of shutting down the football program for a while, is my evidence that the culture of penn state needs to be blown up from sources EXTERNALLY

1 year no football, forfeit all athletic department revenue for 1 year.

Case closed.

 

[upstater]

I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.

I rest my case. Death penalty to penn state football program. 1 year, no football, forfeit all athletic department revenue - 1 year.

It's the only way to change the culture.

You rest your case about what? You've never made any case whatsoever. You just mindlessly repeat whatever nelsonmuntz has to say.

 

[upstater]

In all due respect, seriously, WTF is this? You know what never mind.


The fact that you, as not only a supporter of PSU, but also a higher education professional of some sort - self professed - can't acknowledge publicly that PSU should seriously face the reality of shutting down the football program for a while, is my evidence that the culture of penn state needs to be blown up from sources EXTERNALLY

1 year no football, forfeit all athletic department revenue for 1 year.

Case closed.

Laughable!!!!!

You change with every single post.

First the death penalty. Now one year of football. Holy, make up your mind!!!

And what could you possibly have against my post about the Board of Trustees. My God, who even knows WTF you are talking about?

 

[Carl Spackler]

THere's almost 40 pages of this discussion that very clearly outlines what I"m talking about. What you're doing, with your responses, and comments, is simply reinforcing the fact that Penn State needs external, and SWIFT, forceful punishment.

All I'm asking upstater, is for you, to admit in words, that you think that penn state just might....you know what...can you even admit what free scooter (i think - sorry dude if I'm wrong) but wrote that a self-imposed complete shut down of the football program would at least send the public signal that the culture is changing?

YOu came close - here:

They could do that. Frankly, I wouldn't care. I think punishment is warranted and it'd be better if PSU did it, but even harsher punishment wouldn't matter to me. This is football, we're talking about. Beyond that, I don't think it's about the football program and I don't think it would really matter to the vast majority of the university community if football were punished. It might matter to a portion of the football boosters and season tix holders, but the majority of alumni would be on board.


BUt even here, still, you are following the Paterno legacy- quote" I don't think it's about the football program". this is most defintely about the football program at Penn State, and only Penn State people continue to deny it.

 

[ZooCougar]

The NCAA should shutter that football program and probably the rest of the athletic program. They have not demonstrated that they are responsible as an institution. Schools that use their authority to protect a monster is just another monster.

If they play football this year then when they play away games, I hope the fans of the home team wear black to remind this institution and not let them off the hook.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

THere's almost 40 pages of this discussion that very clearly outlines what I"m talking about. What you're doing, with your responses, and comments, is simply reinforcing the fact that Penn State needs external, and SWIFT, forceful punishment.

All I'm asking upstater, is for you, to admit in words, that you think that penn state just might....you know what...can you even admit what free scooter (i think - sorry dude if I'm wrong) but wrote that a self-imposed complete shut down of the football program would at least send the public signal that the culture is changing?

YOu came close - here:

They could do that. Frankly, I wouldn't care. I think punishment is warranted and it'd be better if PSU did it, but even harsher punishment wouldn't matter to me. This is football, we're talking about. Beyond that, I don't think it's about the football program and I don't think it would really matter to the vast majority of the university community if football were punished. It might matter to a portion of the football boosters and season tix holders, but the majority of alumni would be on board.


BUt even here, still, you are following the Paterno legacy- quote" I don't think it's about the football program". this is most defintely about the football program at Penn State, and only Penn State people continue to deny it.

I'm sorry, I have to laugh.....because I distinctly remember you, in late 2011, claim emphatically that this was NOT a football story.

 

[freescooter]

We all know upstater will defend Penn State to the last man. We also know that Carl is one crazed dude. The NCAA "death penalty" though refers to losing the program for a year. At least the only time it was used in major college football, at SMU, it was a year. The 2nd year they were only allowed to play league games, I think, though not sure, and only on the road. They were also hit with loss of 55 scholarships over 4 years and limited to 5 coaches, no off campus recuiting and not allowed ot pay for recruits to visit the campus(ie "officila visits"). SMU decided it couldn't put a real team out under those circumstances, so it voluntarily suspended its team for the 2nd season. to me the scholarships, and all the rest of it is all the sort of extra stuff the NCAA could consider, but Penn State would send a powerful message that it intends to take back control of the football program by suspending it for a season. the more you read about this, the more clear it is that football at Penn State was not answerable to anyone, indeed they were answerable to the football program. The football program didn't want to participate in "mandatory" abuse training, they didn't. they didn't want an outside reviewer, it was cancelled...

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

I haven't read the report and certainly not the pages of hodge podge in here, but did the report reveal that PSU broke any specific NCAA rules?

 

[Carl Spackler]

I'm sorry, I have to laugh.....because I distinctly remember you, in late 2011, claim emphatically that this was NOT a football story.

That was before I had any clue how ugly this really was. I hoped it wasn't a football thing. That Penn State football, that Joe Paterno, was not what has come to light since. This is about the kids. As I said then.

The kids that were ignored by Joe Paterno, in favor of the image of his football program.

 

[mattp]

do those of you that think PSU should get the death penalty, or have it's athletic dept shut down also think the Catholic Church should be closed down? maybe they could be prohibited from operating in the US, or have their tax exemption taken away. if you agree with PSU getting the d-p, but not the catholic church, what's your reasoning?

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Laughable!!!!!

You change with every single post.

First the death penalty. Now one year of football. Holy, make up your mind!!!

And what could you possibly have against my post about the Board of Trustees. My God, who even knows WTF you are talking about?

You are right. Penn State has been punished enough already.

 

[Carl Spackler]

We all know upstater will defend Penn State to the last man. We also know that Carl is one crazed dude. The NCAA "death penalty" though refers to losing the program for a year. At least the only time it was used in major college football, at SMU, it was a year. The 2nd year they were only allowed to play league games, I think, though not sure, and only on the road. They were also hit with loss of 55 scholarships over 4 years and limited to 5 coaches, no off campus recuiting and not allowed ot pay for recruits to visit the campus(ie "officila visits"). SMU decided it couldn't put a real team out under those circumstances, so it voluntarily suspended its team for the 2nd season. to me the scholarships, and all the rest of it is all the sort of extra stuff the NCAA could consider, but Penn State would send a powerful message that it intends to take back control of the football program by suspending it for a season. the more you read about this, the more clear it is that football at Penn State was not answerable to anyone, indeed they were answerable to the football program. The football program didn't want to participate in "mandatory" abuse training, they didn't. they didn't want an outside reviewer, it was cancelled...

Here's somebody that's had the courage to actually read what's in the documents about this situation.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

do those of you that think PSU should get the death penalty, or have it's athletic dept shut down also think the Catholic Church should be closed down? maybe they could be prohibited from operating in the US, or have their tax exemption taken away. if you agree with PSU getting the d-p, but not the catholic church, what's your reasoning?

First of all, those of us advocating the death penalty are only asking that the football program get shut down for a few years. People like you that conflate the football program with the university are part of the reason Penn State finds itself in this position in the first place.

Second of all, the Catholic Church is a useful guideline for what we think will happen, but irrelevant in terms of what we think SHOULD happen. Penn State's problems are Penn State's problems, and I do not get why you, WingU and Upstater continue to try to defend Penn State through these tangential arguments.

 

[upstater]

THere's almost 40 pages of this discussion that very clearly outlines what I"m talking about. What you're doing, with your responses, and comments, is simply reinforcing the fact that Penn State needs external, and SWIFT, forceful punishment.

All I'm asking upstater, is for you, to admit in words, that you think that penn state just might....you know what...can you even admit what free scooter (i think - sorry dude if I'm wrong) but wrote that a self-imposed complete shut down of the football program would at least send the public signal that the culture is changing?

YOu came close - here:

They could do that. Frankly, I wouldn't care. I think punishment is warranted and it'd be better if PSU did it, but even harsher punishment wouldn't matter to me. This is football, we're talking about. Beyond that, I don't think it's about the football program and I don't think it would really matter to the vast majority of the university community if football were punished. It might matter to a portion of the football boosters and season tix holders, but the majority of alumni would be on board.


BUt even here, still, you are following the Paterno legacy- quote" I don't think it's about the football program". this is most defintely about the football program at Penn State, and only Penn State people continue to deny it.

I disagree with you. What more needs to be said? Frankly, I've stated my position on this thread and stuck to it.

You, meanwhile, are all over the place. From death penalty, to 1 year off. I can't figure out what you even stand for anymore.

Suffice it to say we disagree on death penalty and also the nature of the cover-up. I agree with the Freeh report, and have been stating so for quite awhile now.

I don't even know what else is in dispute.

Let me make this clear once and for all:

1. I agree punishment is warranted
2. Don't agree on death penalty
3. Agree on cover-up
4. Don't agree on motives, but I'm open to it and think it's arguable/up in the air.

Otherwise, I really have absolutely no idea what you're going on about.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

do those of you that think PSU should get the death penalty, or have it's athletic dept shut down also think the Catholic Church should be closed down? maybe they could be prohibited from operating in the US, or have their tax exemption taken away. if you agree with PSU getting the d-p, but not the catholic church, what's your reasoning?

Who is the governing body that can impose such penalties on a religious organization?

 

[Carl Spackler]

do those of you that think PSU should get the death penalty, or have it's athletic dept shut down also think the Catholic Church should be closed down? maybe they could be prohibited from operating in the US, or have their tax exemption taken away. if you agree with PSU getting the d-p, but not the catholic church, what's your reasoning?

I think the Catholic Church - specifically the Vatican - should have been punished much harder than they were/are. The problem, as there appears to be right now, with PSU, unless the NCAA, Big 10, and whatever other external influences possibly can.......but the problem is that there are few (or in the case of the Vatican) No sources where punishment can come from other htan paying exhorbitant amounts of money.

If the catholic church I attend were found to have priests sexually abusing young boys, NO, I would not be opposed to the church closing for a period of time. I would go elsewhere for mass anyway for a while, until I was convinced that the place was clean, if they every opened the same building up again anyway.

The church isn't the building anyway.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

I disagree with you. What more needs to be said? Frankly, I've stated my position on this thread and stuck to it.

You, meanwhile, are all over the place. From death penalty, to 1 year off. I can't figure out what you even stand for anymore.

Suffice it to say we disagree on death penalty and also the nature of the cover-up. I agree with the Freeh report, and have been stating so for quite awhile now.

I don't even know what else is in dispute.

Let me make this clear once and for all:

1. I agree punishment is warranted
2. Don't agree on death penalty
3. Agree on cover-up
4. Don't agree on motives, but I'm open to it and think it's arguable/up in the air.

Otherwise, I really have absolutely no idea what you're going on about.

Without going through all of your posts......I've never seen you state what you think is an appropriate penalty for PSU here? Curious.

 

[upstater]

Why are you guys even sports fans? You honestly believe football isn't a fiefdom at D1 schools? Man, are you guys naive.

 

[upstater]

Without going through all of your posts......I've never seen you state what you think is an appropriate penalty for PSU here? Curious.

Stated it repeatedly in this thread. Stated it at the start, stated it a few weeks ago with the emails, stated it again and again.

I don't think any of it is appropriate or logical because what happened so outweighs concerns with extracurricular sports. But that being said, I think shutting down football for one year can be done out of moral opprobrium. As for propriety, that's a different story. Like I said, I don't really care. I tend to think this is a problem of PSU's administrative culture. The top guys like Spanier and Schultz were in CYA mode because of concern with potential liabilities. Whereas Paterno was more concerned with Sandusky's well-being. How do you ameliorate that except by firing all concerned, cleaning house, then re-writing rules? (To make sure it never happens again? No, that's not possible. But to try harder at making it not happen again). What to do with the football program is so secondary and frankly not important.

 

[CL82]

I haven't read the report and certainly not the pages of hodge podge in here, but did the report reveal that PSU broke any specific NCAA rules?

Fair question. I believe that there are NCAA individual and institution integrity requirements that have been linked in the past. I also believe the NCAA has said that this might be an institutional control issue. Maintaining the (false) reputation of moral superiority of the PSU football program was more important that the welfare of innocents. A football coach, apparently overuled his nominal 'superiors' as to how to deal with the issue. That makes it an issue of institutional control.

 

[upstater]

Who is the governing body that can impose such penalties on a religious organization?

Maybe it can impact non-profit status?

 

[upstater]

Fair question. I believe that there are NCAA individual and institution integrity requirements that have been linked in the past. I also believe the NCAA has said that this might be an institutional control issue. Maintaining the (false) reputation of moral superiority of the PSU football program was more important that the welfare of innocents. A football coach, apparently overuled his nominal 'superiors' as to how to deal with the issue. That makes it an issue of institutional control.

He overruled his superiors? Where did you get that? What I read, and what Freeh concluded, is that they were all in cahoots.

 

[Carl Spackler]

He overruled his superiors? Where did you get that? What I read, and what Freeh concluded, is that they were all in cahoots.

I hope this is an act upstater. The exact information, you ask for here, I posted, and I made a comment, that I anticipated you might tell me that the AD told Paterno not to report Sandusky to authorities, adn not the other way around, an you called me deranged for posting it.

Post #329 in case your wondering. In correspondence discovered in March of this year. A plan had been formulated by the AD, Pres, to report Sandusky. After the AD met with Paterno, the plan was changed, and Sandusky was NOT reported.


Go read it, and I posted the entire document. I suggest you read it too upstater. I don't believe that you've had the courage to read through it yet. The same kind of honest evaluation that Freeh called for in the paragraph I quoted to start this mess today.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

He overruled his superiors? Where did you get that? What I read, and what Freeh concluded, is that they were all in cahoots.

"After talking it over with Joe, I'm uncomfortable about our plan."