Why isn’t Clingan…

[HuskyHawk]

Put me in the category that teams like Nova, Xavier and Creighton that have a good passing center that can make threes and play four out with good three point shooters should be played differently from teams that don’t have this.

The high hedge that Sonogo did on Nunge was too easily exploited by Nunge because Xavier has players spread away from the basket so no one is adequately positioned to stop a player that gets free on screens.

Because Donovan doesn’t have the foot speed that Adama has Hurley kept him between Nunge and the basket allowing him to be able to neutralize that situation. It’s a case of picking how you want to deal with a team with no weaknesses on offense. And I rather have Nunge be less tightly guarded on the perimeter to make threes than allowing an open lane.

My preference would be to have Adama not routinely do hedges on these type of teams but also not to position himself always like Donovan. There should be more variability with him and with our defenders guarding their perimeter players. If there is a poor shooter sag off him like opposing teams do with Andre. Or pretend to sag but run back to the player they are guarding to confuse the passer.

With teams that drive to the basket or back into our players to score and have poor perimeter shooting clog the lane like other teams are doing to us. That would be the situation I’d have Clingan and Adama in together. Offense would suffer but defense would be difficult to beat.

The problem is, if you go back and watch, when Clingan stayed in near the paint, Nunge just took and made a wide open 3, because nobody was guarding him. It seems Hurley talked to him because the next time, Clingan came out on Nunge to prevent that, and Nunge drove past him for a layup. DC didn't play much after that. He just doesn't really have the footspeed or recovery ability to guard any quicker big on the perimeter. He can come out part way on smaller guys and use his length to alter shots at a greater distance.

He will need better help D, the team help D was awful vs Xavier and they did a horrible job of fighting through/around screens. That was the real issue. Hurley hates giving up 3s, so our guys will never go under a screen.

If we're going to leave him in the paint, or Sanogo, then we need to choose to ignore the outside threat from the 5 (which is what teams do to us, letting Sanogo take those 3s). Danny seems unwilling to do that when the 5 can shoot.

Tonight we get Croswell, and he's a perfect guy for a big dose of Clingan. Castro won't shoot either. Moore can theoretically take them, but we should let him.

There are a handful of guys in the Big East who are a bad matchup for Clingan: Kalkbrenner, Freemantle, Nunge, Dixon, Slater.

 

[superjohn]

The problem is, if you go back and watch, when Clingan stayed in near the paint, Nunge just took and made a wide open 3, because nobody was guarding him. It seems Hurley talked to him because the next time, Clingan came out on Nunge to prevent that, and Nunge drove past him for a layup. DC didn't play much after that. He just doesn't really have the footspeed or recovery ability to guard any quicker big on the perimeter. He can come out part way on smaller guys and use his length to alter shots at a greater distance.

He will need better help D, the team help D was awful vs Xavier and they did a horrible job of fighting through/around screens. That was the real issue. Hurley hates giving up 3s, so our guys will never go under a screen.

If we're going to leave him in the paint, or Sanogo, then we need to choose to ignore the outside threat from the 5 (which is what teams do to us, letting Sanogo take those 3s). Danny seems unwilling to do that when the 5 can shoot.

Tonight we get Croswell, and he's a perfect guy for a big dose of Clingan. Castro won't shoot either. Moore can theoretically take them, but we should let him.

There are a handful of guys in the Big East who are a bad matchup for Clingan: Kalkbrenner, Freemantle, Nunge, Dixon, Slater.

Who gives a shart about the bigs taking and making a three?

We gave up 41 points on layups because we had our big playing defense out at the three point line. Let's stop treating bigs like they're Steph Curry.

Clingan is a bad matchup for all those players you named.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

Is Sanogo the liability on defense, or is the defense he is forced to play creating the liability?

i think neither, and i don't get why some here seem to think lately that it's all aboot adama when examining our recent play.
it's not.
more like a 'management' issue, methinks.

 

[Rico444]

Who gives a shart about the bigs taking and making a three?

We gave up 41 points on layups because we had our big playing defense out at the three point line. Let's stop treating bigs like they're Steph Curry.

Clingan is a bad matchup for all those players you named.

A 3 still counts for 3 points regardless of the height of the player making the attempt. Nunge also shoots 42% from 3, so leaving him wide open the whole game is most likely going to end very poorly for us.

 

[superjohn]

A 3 still counts for 3 points regardless of the height of the player making the attempt. Nunge also shoots 42% from 3, so leaving him wide open the whole game is most likely going to end very poorly for us.

You think it ends worse than giving up 41 points on layups?

 

[navery12]

You think it ends worse than giving up 41 points on layups?

Yes

 

[JustbrewitMan]

Who gives a shart about the bigs taking and making a three?

We gave up 41 points on layups because we had our big playing defense out at the three point line. Let's stop treating bigs like they're Steph Curry.

Clingan is a bad matchup for all those players you named.

Nunge is shooting 43% from 3pt on good volume.

Leaving a 43% 3pt shooter to shoot wide open 3s seems like a good strategy? Thank goodness you don't have Hurley's ear.

 

[superjohn]

Nunge is shooting 43% from 3pt on good volume.

Leaving a 43% 3pt shooter to shoot wide open 3s seems like a good strategy? Thank goodness you don't have Hurley's ear.

Watch the game. Sanogo was in no man's land and the lane was wide open. He wasn't really guarding the ball handler or the big. They got slips to the rim all game because of it and we had no rim protector. If you think Nunge was going to burn us for 12 threes I don't know what to tell you. Xavier is mediocre athletically but they are great executing their offense and have a great coach. They easily picked it apart all game.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

If a team beats you because their center won’t miss a three then hey, they got it. There’s lower odds of that happening than a team who you give very high percentage layups too.

 

[mauconnfan]

You can make your point without trying to get into Sanogo's head. There is absolutely zero indication that he didn't contest that play so he could "stay in the game to get his points." I hate when fans sitting on their couch try to get in a player's head like that and assume they're being selfish and only care about their own personal stats

I’ll say what I think I saw and I think others agree. It was blatantly obvious Rico like it or not watch it again and give me another reason a competitive player would not make a play please! Do me a favor and don’t post anything you think when you’re on your couch either then ok?

 

[ctchamps]

Watch the game. Sanogo was in no man's land and the lane was wide open. He wasn't really guarding the ball handler or the big. They got slips to the rim all game because of it and we had no rim protector. If you think Nunge was going to burn us for 12 threes I don't know what to tell you. Xavier is mediocre athletically but they are great executing their offense and have a great coach. They easily picked it apart all game.

If a team beats you because their center won’t miss a three then hey, they got it. There’s lower odds of that happening than a team who you give very high percentage layups too.

This is exactly the way I saw it. People who are critical of Sanogo's defense and want to see more Donovan are not factoring in if the scheming in this game was the problem.

In @HuskyHawk response to me he does not include the missed Nunge three when Donovan played midway vs the made three when Donovan played completely off Nunge. Yes the fake three which allowed Nunge to drive by Donovan was the final straw for Hurley but that is teachable and certainly an experienced player like Sanogo would be less likely to fall for it.

Before I'd argue for more minutes from Donovan I'd like to see apples for apples in the defensive approach by the two players in these type of offenses.

 

[HuskylnSC]

If you play Adama and Donovan at same time. Who sits? Not Jackson, Not Hawkins. Newton? Bench your primary ball handler and let Jackson run the team? Nah, I don't think so. Bench Karaban, your second outside threat? Basketball requires several skill sets to be integrated. The coaches job is to determine what skills are needed against an opponent at a particular time. A team with AS and DC on the floor would be pressed into oblivion.

Also playing both at the same time gives you a diminished Adama. His strength is playing underneath. Karaban is a better 4 that Adama. So playing Adams at the 4 diminishes your team.

 

[ctchamps]

If you play Adama and Donovan at same time. Who sits? Not Jackson, Not Hawkins. Newton? Bench your primary ball handler and let Jackson run the team? Nah, I don't think so. Bench Karaban, your second outside threat? Basketball requires several skill sets to be integrated. The coaches job is to determine what skills are needed against an opponent at a particular time. A team with AS and DC on the floor would be pressed into oblivion.

Also playing both at the same time gives you a diminished Adama. His strength is playing underneath. Karaban is a better 4 that Adama. So playing Adams at the 4 diminishes your team.

Just for argument sake consider what that lineup could do on the defensive end against certain opposing lineups.

If we're down ten points against teams with four out good shooters and can drive to the basket or teams that play uptempo full court type of style this defense would be a disaster. But against a grind it half court team that iso a lot or want to drive to the basket like Nova and have one or more weak peripheral shooters when we're ahead by ten I feel it should be considered as an option.

 

[Rico444]

You think it ends worse than giving up 41 points on layups?

I'm not sure where you're getting the number of points scored on layups; Xavier made 22 2-PT baskets total, which is 44 points, and 41 is an odd number so not even possible to get 41 points on layups alone. I'm sure we would give up fewer points than that if we packed the paint and gave them open 3s all day, but considering 3s are worth more than 2s and an open 3 is a high percentage shot I'm not convinced it would've been worth it defensively. Freemantle was a mismatch for Karaban and Nunge still would have scored if we kept our big guys parked in the paint defensively.

 

[PAHusky]

If a team beats you because their center won’t miss a three then hey, they got it. There’s lower odds of that happening than a team who you give very high percentage layups too.

Replace "center" with "guy shooting 42% from 3" in your first sentence and it seems ridiculous. This isn't the 50's - a lot of centers have extended range now. You can't leave them wide open, and DC obviously didn't have the foot speed to guard the three point line and prevent the drive. What do you do then?

DC and AS together may, may work if the other team plays two similar bigs without extended range who are more traditional than stretch centers. When the other team plays a guy against either of them who can stretch the floor to the three point line, thus taking them out of the paint, that's when the trouble starts. And if they're quicker than either right now - like Dixon, or Kalkbrenner - it's compounded.

 

[Rico444]

Just for argument sake consider what that lineup could do on the defensive end against certain opposing lineups.

If we're down ten points against teams with four out good shooters and can drive to the basket or teams that play uptempo full court type of style this defense would be a disaster. But against a grind it half court team that iso a lot or want to drive to the basket like Nova and have one or more weak peripheral shooters when we're ahead by ten I feel it should be considered as an option.

Nova would play five out if you put Clingan and Sanogo in the game against them and they would drive on our big guys all day long.

Having Clingan and Sanogo play at the same time would completely change how we play offense, and there are only a handful of situations I can see where it would make sense to do it defensively.

 

[UCSouth]

Serious question here. Why can't Adama keep a 4 in front of himself on defense, yet is expected to hedge? Is his footspeed not good enough? Help me to understand this please.

 

[CTBasketball]

Nova would play five out if you put Clingan and Sanogo in the game against them and they would drive on our big guys all day long.

Having Clingan and Sanogo play at the same time would completely change how we play offense, and there are only a handful of situations I can see where it would make sense to do it defensively.

We’re not playing 4 out 1 in with Clingan and Sanogo on the floor, teams would leave Jackson and Sanogo wide open and stuff the paint.

Likely a 3 out 2 in motion. And when Sanogo gets the ball at the FT line or post, you really think he’ll look to pass out of the double? He’s putting the ball on the floor for a shot or spinning away into a contested shot because Clingan’s man from the help side will be there.

 

[navery12]

Serious question here. Why can't Adama keep a 4 in front of himself on defense, yet is expected to hedge? Is his footspeed not good enough? Help me to understand this please.

Because with Adama it's not even really a full hedge. He shows on the pick to give the guard enough time to fight through and recover, and then retreats to the paint. So he's not being asked to keep guys in front of himself on defense, just force them to move laterally long enough that the guard can do that

 

[Hamms30]

If you play Adama and Donovan at same time. Who sits? Not Jackson, Not Hawkins. Newton? Bench your primary ball handler and let Jackson run the team? Nah, I don't think so. Bench Karaban, your second outside threat? Basketball requires several skill sets to be integrated. The coaches job is to determine what skills are needed against an opponent at a particular time. A team with AS and DC on the floor would be pressed into oblivion.

Also playing both at the same time gives you a diminished Adama. His strength is playing underneath. Karaban is a better 4 that Adama. So playing Adams at the 4 diminishes your team.

If the two of them are in at the same time, then the outside game isn't going to be the point of emphasis and Karaban is likely sitting. One is going to the high post and the other is going to the opposite block down low. Likely Adama at high post to give space to go by or create contact from an undersized 4. If guard help crashes, you kick outside and swing to Hawkins. If low help, easy dump to Clingan. If no help, then it's Sanogo one on one banging around for good position for a close shot. I don't see this lineup going more than 3 minutes though so you could sit Newton and let AJ run point for that time.

 

[superjohn]

I'm not sure where you're getting the number of points scored on layups; Xavier made 22 2-PT baskets total, which is 44 points, and 41 is an odd number so not even possible to get 41 points on layups alone. I'm sure we would give up fewer points than that if we packed the paint and gave them open 3s all day, but considering 3s are worth more than 2s and an open 3 is a high percentage shot I'm not convinced it would've been worth it defensively. Freemantle was a mismatch for Karaban and Nunge still would have scored if we kept our big guys parked in the paint defensively.

From all their layups and And 1 layups 41 was the number it came to. I might be off by a point or 2 +- but that's what I came up with.

 

[PAHusky]

If the two of them are in at the same time, then the outside game isn't going to be the point of emphasis and Karaban is likely sitting. One is going to the high post and the other is going to the opposite block down low. Likely Adama at high post to give space to go by or create contact from an undersized 4. If guard help crashes, you kick outside and swing to Hawkins. If low help, easy dump to Clingan. If no help, then it's Sanogo one on one banging around for good position for a close shot. I don't see this lineup going more than 3 minutes though so you could sit Newton and let AJ run point for that time.

This would have made more sense if we didn't have shooters like last year. We do, so there's no reason to pack the paint and force Sanogo to be the main decision maker in the offense. Assuming a guy who still struggles to pass out of obvious double teams to be reading multiple options out of the high post and making the correct decision seems like a pipe dream. Not mention trading off making more 2's than 3's makes no statistical sense

 

[HuskyHawk]

Who gives a shart about the bigs taking and making a three?

We gave up 41 points on layups because we had our big playing defense out at the three point line. Let's stop treating bigs like they're Steph Curry.

Clingan is a bad matchup for all those players you named.

Hurley does. He won't let them beat him out there. Call it his achilles heel, whatever you want. I'm not advocating for his approach, I'm simply saying it's what he's done since he's been here. It killed us against Creighton. It killed us when he pulled Sanogo against St. Johns and gave up endless layups. Sanogo is doing exactly what he's coached to do. Every good coach in this league knows how to exploit Hurley's tendency, which is why our D doesn't look nearly as good in Big East play. We have to go zone 5 minutes a game with DC in the paint just to disrupt these offensive schemes.

And no, Sanogo wasn't in no man's land. There was not any situation where the screener he guarded scored except the one time he actually moved to the top of the key to cut off a drive, and then Freemantle hit a three (which is what Hurley is trying to avoid). The other was Nunge on the P&R, but given that Sanogo was pointing at the lane and saying something to the team, I think somebody else was supposed to pick him up.

 

[superjohn]

Replace "center" with "guy shooting 42% from 3" in your first sentence and it seems ridiculous. This isn't the 50's - a lot of centers have extended range now. You can't leave them wide open, and DC obviously didn't have the foot speed to guard the three point line and prevent the drive. What do you do then?

DC and AS together may, may work if the other team plays two similar bigs without extended range who are more traditional than stretch centers. When the other team plays a guy against either of them who can stretch the floor to the three point line, thus taking them out of the paint, that's when the trouble starts. And if they're quicker than either right now - like Dixon, or Kalkbrenner - it's compounded.

Get Clingan guarding the perimeter out of your head. He's a 7'2 guy who shuts things down near the basket...The Sanogo coming out to guard at the three point line all the time worked earlier in the season but teams are ready for it now. They've seen it and the Big East coaches know us. Whaley was great at it and Sanogo is just solid at it. I'm not saying completely scrap it but do a lot less of it if we're going to keep playing Sanogo 30 minutes and Clingan 10 minutes (which needs to stop btw.) Xavier was prepared for it and Sanogo was caught out of position all night and then we had nothing at the rim which is bothersome because we do have a great rim protector/shotblocker...Without Samson, with Clingan being benched, and with Sanogo out at the three point line we have zero rim protection. That's not UConn basketball and that's us playing to our opponents instead of using our size and athleticism to our advantage.

Between Sanogo and Karaban we have 1 blocked shot in Big East play from the two starting bigs and we aren't even deterring shots at the rim.

Tonight is a game I feel both Sanogo and Clingan should dominate, I doubt he decides to play them together at all so let's see a better allocation of minutes. Providence takes and makes a small amount of threes so I don't want to see Adama out on the perimeter and they can't matchup with Donovan's size. We'll see how it goes.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

If a team beats you because their center won’t miss a three then hey, they got it. There’s lower odds of that happening than a team who you give very high percentage layups too.

Seems like an odd argument if the center shoots a high percentage from 3. I'm not nearly the master strategist that some of you are but it would seem like leaving a center open who shoots 3s at a high percentage is still bad. It's sort of like the argument that someone made yesterday that it doesn't matter whether Jackson is making 3s or not, he shoots them too often. It would seem to me, and I'm not Red Auerbach, that it's not actually bad if they're going in (as they were against Xavier before the last-minute unraveling).