Why isn’t Clingan…

[metsfan2323]

The sad reality is that until they are played together, Clingan will get fewer minutes in the most important games than he has averaged thus far this season. You could make a case that he is the best player on the team right now, in terms of PER stats he is so far.

If true, excuse me for thinking this would be an asinine decision by Dan Hurley. We are at our best when Clingan is on the floor and I would argue he is a more impactful player than Sanogo.

Clingan is a complete player (a true center, capable of dominating) and Sanogo is not. Sango giveth and Sanogo taketh away, he almost negates himself.

 

[HuskyHawk]

If true, excuse me for thinking this would be an asinine decision by Dan Hurley. We are at our best when Clingan is on the floor and I would argue he is a more impactful player than Sanogo.

Clingan is a complete player and Sanogo is not. Sango giveth and Sanogo taketh away, he almost negates himself.

What utter nonsense. Clingan can't guard any of the 4 bigs we just faced, so he didn't play much. Sanogo is our best player and it isn't particularly close.

 

[metsfan2323]

What utter nonsense. Clingan can't guard any of the 4 bigs we just faced, so he didn't play much. Sanogo is our best player and it isn't particularly close.

LOL, OK, you are watching a different game than I am. Clingan can't guard anyone from the bench, Sanogo couldn't guard anyone on the floor Saturday.

 

[UConnSwag11]

What utter nonsense. Clingan can't guard any of the 4 bigs we just faced, so he didn't play much. Sanogo is our best player and it isn't particularly close.

He came in and we went on a run. Dixon wanted nothing to do with him. Neither did Nunge or Freemantle. Sanogo is light years ahead of Clingan offensively. Clingan has the size and Sanogo does not. Sanogo positions himself for rebounds while Clingan can block/alter shots. Clingan stands there to grab rebounds like an adult at youth basketball. Clingan blocked a jumpshot 10 feet away from the basket

 

[UConnSwag11]

If true, excuse me for thinking this would be an asinine decision by Dan Hurley. We are at our best when Clingan is on the floor and I would argue he is a more impactful player than Sanogo.

Clingan is a complete player (a true center, capable of dominating) and Sanogo is not. Sango giveth and Sanogo taketh away, he almost negates himself.

Clingan is not a complete player and that's not a knock on him.

 

[metsfan2323]

Clingan is not a complete player and that's not a knock on him.

He is nowhere near reaching his potential which is enormous.

He is a more complete player than Sanogo IMO especially when we are talking about playing the center position.

 

[Deleted at users request]

He is nowhere near reaching his potential which is enormous.

He is a more complete player than Sanogo IMO especially when we are talking about playing the center position.

I know what you mean.

Clingan does things centers are suppose to do better than Sanogo. Rebound, block shots, run rim to rim. Sanogo is just more skilled and polished right now.

There’s a reason we always went on runs when he was on the floor before conference play began. It was like clock work. Beating a dead horse but it’d be stupid to limit his minutes with the ample evidence we have on how he impacts the game. Our bench won us a lot of games during OOC, we have to keep using it with conference play here.

 

[jibsey]

I know what you mean.

Clingan does things centers are suppose to do better than Sanogo. Rebound, block shots, run rim to rim. Sanogo is just more skilled and polished right now.

There’s a reason we always went on runs when he was on the floor before conference play began. It was like clock work. Beating a dead horse but it’d be stupid to limit his minutes with the ample evidence we have on how he impacts the game. Our bench won us a lot of games during OOC, we have to keep using it with conference play here.

I always want coaches to give minutes to potentially good players who are developing in the hope it pays off in important games later. Clingan has shown us enough to warrant that and if he makes mistakes now so be it, it’s early. Interesting to see what happens tomorrow.

 

[gtcam]

What utter nonsense. Clingan can't guard any of the 4 bigs we just faced, so he didn't play much. Sanogo is our best player and it isn't particularly close.

Sorry HH but you underestimate DC greatly - as far as guarding the 4 bigs - AS was defending air more than a body. He was less than effective defensively vs Gtown, Nova and Xavier. DC showed some nice D in Oregon vs some quality talent.
AS is the best player at scoring down low, yes. But there's more to the game than 1 aspect.
DC is a 5. AS is a big 4 without a midrange game - a tweener.
DC is a better 5 - and it's not particularly close
AS means more to the team due to his presence and pre-season laurels - yes he was the best player on last years team - by far. However, there are much better talent around him now and that makes a difference. The team, in a way, looks for him to be a leader different than AJax.
Nobody says AS should sit but Dan Hurley cannot ignore what he has in DC - he's the only real 5 the team has right now.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Sorry HH but you underestimate DC greatly - as far as guarding the 4 bigs - AS was defending air more than a body. He was less than effective defensively vs Gtown, Nova and Xavier. DC showed some nice D in Oregon vs some quality talent.
AS is the best player at scoring down low, yes. But there's more to the game than 1 aspect.
DC is a 5. AS is a big 4 without a midrange game - a tweener.
DC is a better 5 - and it's not particularly close
AS means more to the team due to his presence and pre-season laurels - yes he was the best player on last years team - by far. However, there are much better talent around him now and that makes a difference. The team, in a way, looks for him to be a leader different than AJax.
Nobody says AS should sit but Dan Hurley cannot ignore what he has in DC - he's the only real 5 the team has right now.

I feel like I’ve been teleported to the 1990s.

 

[jake14mw]

He came in and we went on a run...

He came in in the first half at 12:24. Creighton was leading 16-15. He went out at 8:32. Creighton was leading 27-22.
In the second half he came in with 14:57 left. We were leading 53-52. Went out at 11:25. We were leading 58-56.

Where are the runs?

 

[superjohn]

He came in in the first half at 12:24. Creighton was leading 16-15. He went out at 8:32. Creighton was leading 27-22.
In the second half he came in with 14:57 left. We were leading 53-52. Went out at 11:25. We were leading 58-56.

Where are the runs?

Kalkbrenner is a tough cover.

 

[PAHusky]

Sorry HH but you underestimate DC greatly - as far as guarding the 4 bigs - AS was defending air more than a body. He was less than effective defensively vs Gtown, Nova and Xavier. DC showed some nice D in Oregon vs some quality talent.
AS is the best player at scoring down low, yes. But there's more to the game than 1 aspect.
DC is a 5. AS is a big 4 without a midrange game - a tweener.
DC is a better 5 - and it's not particularly close
AS means more to the team due to his presence and pre-season laurels - yes he was the best player on last years team - by far. However, there are much better talent around him now and that makes a difference. The team, in a way, looks for him to be a leader different than AJax.
Nobody says AS should sit but Dan Hurley cannot ignore what he has in DC - he's the only real 5 the team has right now.

1. DC may be a better interior defender than AS right now, but there's no way he can guard anyone at all on the perimeter - AS might be bad out there but DC would get cooked. That's what makes the whole "play them together" idea laughable - if you stay in man neither can match up with a 4 w/ any quickness.

2. AS is not a 4 without a jump shot, or "not a real 5". He's an undersized 5 who's one of the best players in the conference/country playing there. DC will eventually - most likely - be a better 5. He is not right now.

I think the answer here is to just rotate the two of them more at the 5. Keeps AS fresh and gives DC more run. But trying to replace AS w/ DC, or to play them together, makes no sense.

 

[Rico444]

Early first half Saturday he already had one foul and he had a chance at an easy step in help but decided to get out of the way. It seems it’s more important that he stay in the game to get his points than to contest a drive and help your teammates. I was pissed about that play!

You can make your point without trying to get into Sanogo's head. There is absolutely zero indication that he didn't contest that play so he could "stay in the game to get his points." I hate when fans sitting on their couch try to get in a player's head like that and assume they're being selfish and only care about their own personal stats

 

[ctchamps]

Is Sanogo the liability on defense, or is the defense he is forced to play creating the liability?

Put me in the category that teams like Nova, Xavier and Creighton that have a good passing center that can make threes and play four out with good three point shooters should be played differently from teams that don’t have this.

The high hedge that Sonogo did on Nunge was too easily exploited by Nunge because Xavier has players spread away from the basket so no one is adequately positioned to stop a player that gets free on screens.

Because Donovan doesn’t have the foot speed that Adama has Hurley kept him between Nunge and the basket allowing him to be able to neutralize that situation. It’s a case of picking how you want to deal with a team with no weaknesses on offense. And I rather have Nunge be less tightly guarded on the perimeter to make threes than allowing an open lane.

My preference would be to have Adama not routinely do hedges on these type of teams but also not to position himself always like Donovan. There should be more variability with him and with our defenders guarding their perimeter players. If there is a poor shooter sag off him like opposing teams do with Andre. Or pretend to sag but run back to the player they are guarding to confuse the passer.

With teams that drive to the basket or back into our players to score and have poor perimeter shooting clog the lane like other teams are doing to us. That would be the situation I’d have Clingan and Adama in together. Offense would suffer but defense would be difficult to beat.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Put me in the category that teams like Nova, Xavier and Creighton that have a good passing center that can make threes and play four out with good three point shooters should be played differently from teams that don’t have this.

The high hedge that Sonogo did on Nunge was too easily exploited by Nunge because Xavier has players spread away from the basket so no one is adequately positioned to stop a player that gets free on screens.

Because Donovan doesn’t have the foot speed that Adama has Hurley kept him between Nunge and the basket allowing him to be able to neutralize that situation. It’s a case of picking how you want to deal with a team with no weaknesses on offense. And I rather have Nunge be less tightly guarded on the perimeter to make threes than allowing an open lane.

My preference would be to have Adama not routinely do hedges on these type of teams but also not to position himself always like Donovan. There should be more variability with him and with our defenders guarding their perimeter players. If there is a poor shooter sag off him like opposing teams do with Andre. Or pretend to sag but run back to the player they are guarding to confuse the passer.

With teams that drive to the basket or back into our players to score and have poor perimeter shooting clog the lane like other teams are doing to us. That would be the situation I’d have Clingan and Adama in together. Offense would suffer but defense would be difficult to beat.

The problem is, if you go back and watch, when Clingan stayed in near the paint, Nunge just took and made a wide open 3, because nobody was guarding him. It seems Hurley talked to him because the next time, Clingan came out on Nunge to prevent that, and Nunge drove past him for a layup. DC didn't play much after that. He just doesn't really have the footspeed or recovery ability to guard any quicker big on the perimeter. He can come out part way on smaller guys and use his length to alter shots at a greater distance.

He will need better help D, the team help D was awful vs Xavier and they did a horrible job of fighting through/around screens. That was the real issue. Hurley hates giving up 3s, so our guys will never go under a screen.

If we're going to leave him in the paint, or Sanogo, then we need to choose to ignore the outside threat from the 5 (which is what teams do to us, letting Sanogo take those 3s). Danny seems unwilling to do that when the 5 can shoot.

Tonight we get Croswell, and he's a perfect guy for a big dose of Clingan. Castro won't shoot either. Moore can theoretically take them, but we should let him.

There are a handful of guys in the Big East who are a bad matchup for Clingan: Kalkbrenner, Freemantle, Nunge, Dixon, Slater.

 

[superjohn]

The problem is, if you go back and watch, when Clingan stayed in near the paint, Nunge just took and made a wide open 3, because nobody was guarding him. It seems Hurley talked to him because the next time, Clingan came out on Nunge to prevent that, and Nunge drove past him for a layup. DC didn't play much after that. He just doesn't really have the footspeed or recovery ability to guard any quicker big on the perimeter. He can come out part way on smaller guys and use his length to alter shots at a greater distance.

He will need better help D, the team help D was awful vs Xavier and they did a horrible job of fighting through/around screens. That was the real issue. Hurley hates giving up 3s, so our guys will never go under a screen.

If we're going to leave him in the paint, or Sanogo, then we need to choose to ignore the outside threat from the 5 (which is what teams do to us, letting Sanogo take those 3s). Danny seems unwilling to do that when the 5 can shoot.

Tonight we get Croswell, and he's a perfect guy for a big dose of Clingan. Castro won't shoot either. Moore can theoretically take them, but we should let him.

There are a handful of guys in the Big East who are a bad matchup for Clingan: Kalkbrenner, Freemantle, Nunge, Dixon, Slater.

Who gives a shart about the bigs taking and making a three?

We gave up 41 points on layups because we had our big playing defense out at the three point line. Let's stop treating bigs like they're Steph Curry.

Clingan is a bad matchup for all those players you named.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

Is Sanogo the liability on defense, or is the defense he is forced to play creating the liability?

i think neither, and i don't get why some here seem to think lately that it's all aboot adama when examining our recent play.
it's not.
more like a 'management' issue, methinks.

 

[Rico444]

Who gives a shart about the bigs taking and making a three?

We gave up 41 points on layups because we had our big playing defense out at the three point line. Let's stop treating bigs like they're Steph Curry.

Clingan is a bad matchup for all those players you named.

A 3 still counts for 3 points regardless of the height of the player making the attempt. Nunge also shoots 42% from 3, so leaving him wide open the whole game is most likely going to end very poorly for us.

 

[superjohn]

A 3 still counts for 3 points regardless of the height of the player making the attempt. Nunge also shoots 42% from 3, so leaving him wide open the whole game is most likely going to end very poorly for us.

You think it ends worse than giving up 41 points on layups?

 

[navery12]

You think it ends worse than giving up 41 points on layups?

Yes

 

[JustbrewitMan]

Who gives a shart about the bigs taking and making a three?

We gave up 41 points on layups because we had our big playing defense out at the three point line. Let's stop treating bigs like they're Steph Curry.

Clingan is a bad matchup for all those players you named.

Nunge is shooting 43% from 3pt on good volume.

Leaving a 43% 3pt shooter to shoot wide open 3s seems like a good strategy? Thank goodness you don't have Hurley's ear.

 

[superjohn]

Nunge is shooting 43% from 3pt on good volume.

Leaving a 43% 3pt shooter to shoot wide open 3s seems like a good strategy? Thank goodness you don't have Hurley's ear.

Watch the game. Sanogo was in no man's land and the lane was wide open. He wasn't really guarding the ball handler or the big. They got slips to the rim all game because of it and we had no rim protector. If you think Nunge was going to burn us for 12 threes I don't know what to tell you. Xavier is mediocre athletically but they are great executing their offense and have a great coach. They easily picked it apart all game.

 

[Deleted at users request]

If a team beats you because their center won’t miss a three then hey, they got it. There’s lower odds of that happening than a team who you give very high percentage layups too.

 

[mauconnfan]

You can make your point without trying to get into Sanogo's head. There is absolutely zero indication that he didn't contest that play so he could "stay in the game to get his points." I hate when fans sitting on their couch try to get in a player's head like that and assume they're being selfish and only care about their own personal stats

I’ll say what I think I saw and I think others agree. It was blatantly obvious Rico like it or not watch it again and give me another reason a competitive player would not make a play please! Do me a favor and don’t post anything you think when you’re on your couch either then ok?

 

[ctchamps]

Watch the game. Sanogo was in no man's land and the lane was wide open. He wasn't really guarding the ball handler or the big. They got slips to the rim all game because of it and we had no rim protector. If you think Nunge was going to burn us for 12 threes I don't know what to tell you. Xavier is mediocre athletically but they are great executing their offense and have a great coach. They easily picked it apart all game.

If a team beats you because their center won’t miss a three then hey, they got it. There’s lower odds of that happening than a team who you give very high percentage layups too.

This is exactly the way I saw it. People who are critical of Sanogo's defense and want to see more Donovan are not factoring in if the scheming in this game was the problem.

In @HuskyHawk response to me he does not include the missed Nunge three when Donovan played midway vs the made three when Donovan played completely off Nunge. Yes the fake three which allowed Nunge to drive by Donovan was the final straw for Hurley but that is teachable and certainly an experienced player like Sanogo would be less likely to fall for it.

Before I'd argue for more minutes from Donovan I'd like to see apples for apples in the defensive approach by the two players in these type of offenses.

 

[HuskylnSC]

If you play Adama and Donovan at same time. Who sits? Not Jackson, Not Hawkins. Newton? Bench your primary ball handler and let Jackson run the team? Nah, I don't think so. Bench Karaban, your second outside threat? Basketball requires several skill sets to be integrated. The coaches job is to determine what skills are needed against an opponent at a particular time. A team with AS and DC on the floor would be pressed into oblivion.

Also playing both at the same time gives you a diminished Adama. His strength is playing underneath. Karaban is a better 4 that Adama. So playing Adams at the 4 diminishes your team.

 

[ctchamps]

If you play Adama and Donovan at same time. Who sits? Not Jackson, Not Hawkins. Newton? Bench your primary ball handler and let Jackson run the team? Nah, I don't think so. Bench Karaban, your second outside threat? Basketball requires several skill sets to be integrated. The coaches job is to determine what skills are needed against an opponent at a particular time. A team with AS and DC on the floor would be pressed into oblivion.

Also playing both at the same time gives you a diminished Adama. His strength is playing underneath. Karaban is a better 4 that Adama. So playing Adams at the 4 diminishes your team.

Just for argument sake consider what that lineup could do on the defensive end against certain opposing lineups.

If we're down ten points against teams with four out good shooters and can drive to the basket or teams that play uptempo full court type of style this defense would be a disaster. But against a grind it half court team that iso a lot or want to drive to the basket like Nova and have one or more weak peripheral shooters when we're ahead by ten I feel it should be considered as an option.

 

[Rico444]

You think it ends worse than giving up 41 points on layups?

I'm not sure where you're getting the number of points scored on layups; Xavier made 22 2-PT baskets total, which is 44 points, and 41 is an odd number so not even possible to get 41 points on layups alone. I'm sure we would give up fewer points than that if we packed the paint and gave them open 3s all day, but considering 3s are worth more than 2s and an open 3 is a high percentage shot I'm not convinced it would've been worth it defensively. Freemantle was a mismatch for Karaban and Nunge still would have scored if we kept our big guys parked in the paint defensively.

 

[PAHusky]

If a team beats you because their center won’t miss a three then hey, they got it. There’s lower odds of that happening than a team who you give very high percentage layups too.

Replace "center" with "guy shooting 42% from 3" in your first sentence and it seems ridiculous. This isn't the 50's - a lot of centers have extended range now. You can't leave them wide open, and DC obviously didn't have the foot speed to guard the three point line and prevent the drive. What do you do then?

DC and AS together may, may work if the other team plays two similar bigs without extended range who are more traditional than stretch centers. When the other team plays a guy against either of them who can stretch the floor to the three point line, thus taking them out of the paint, that's when the trouble starts. And if they're quicker than either right now - like Dixon, or Kalkbrenner - it's compounded.