Which team has the most talented roster in terms of top 8 players.

[jumpstart]

jumpstart- - - IMHO UConn (if healthy) can play defense as good if not the best defense in DI WCBB!
The problem the past 3 years is UConn has never had all healthy to utilize their amazing athletic skills!
I truly think that if both SoCar and UConn were completely healthy UConn would have beaten SoCar these past 3 years!
Offensively and defensively UConn has a full boat and I wouldn't bet against Geno and his staff!
Just my 2-cents worth!

UCONN still hasn't seen these players in an "after injury" performance. That could be an issue that no one sees coming. There are many players who are not the same after a year of rehab. I don't think Amihere was the same player at South Carolina after her rehab . People forget that she was the No.2 ranked player until she had to sit out her senior season. If the UCONN players all comeback at full strength they still haven't "shown" what they can do as a unit. I will say that until they do...South Carolina has more talent than anyone....again...end of story...lol....

 

[cancontent]

UCONN still hasn't seen these players in an "after injury" performance. That could be an issue that no one sees coming. There are many players who are not the same after a year of rehab. I don't think Amihere was the same player at South Carolina after her rehab . People forget that she was the No.2 ranked player until she had to sit out her senior season. If the UCONN players all comeback at full strength they still haven't "shown" what they can do as a unit. I will say that until they do...South Carolina has more talent than anyone....again...end of story...lol....

I'd chalk it up more to development than her rehab from ACLs. Amihere was primarily known for her dunking and athleticism coming out of King's Christian. She didn't have a well rounded game and it didn't expand while at South Carolina.

 

[visitingcock]

I'd chalk it up more to development than her rehab from ACLs. Amihere was primarily known for her dunking and athleticism coming out of King's Christian. She didn't have a well rounded game and it didn't expand while at South Carolina.

Amihere played out of control way too often. She led SCar in turnovers per minute played. I don’t know how many times she grabbed a defensive rebound and, instead of passing, streaked up court and charged. The only player who as made me hold my breath for ten seconds after making an athletically great play. .

 

[cancontent]

Amihere played out of control way too often. She led SCar in turnovers per minute played. I don’t know how many times she grabbed a defensive rebound and, instead of passing, streaked up court and charged. The only player who as made me hold my breath for ten seconds after making an athletically great play. .

Some of what you've noted has been some of the chatter I've heard from others within Canada Basketball circles. And if recent exhibition games and the first game of the Olympics are any indication, relying solely on athleticism may be catching up with her.

Didn't get significant minutes during exhibition games. Had only 2 minutes of playing time yesterday. Prosper had more and she played 3 minutes.

 

[Bone Dog]

I'd chalk it up more to development than her rehab from ACLs. Amihere was primarily known for her dunking and athleticism coming out of King's Christian. She didn't have a well rounded game and it didn't expand while at South Carolina.

Amihere played out of control way too often. She led SCar in turnovers per minute played. I don’t know how many times she grabbed a defensive rebound and, instead of passing, streaked up court and charged. The only player who as made me hold my breath for ten seconds after making an athletically great play. .

I don’t think I’d blame SC or Dawn for her lack of development. It’s a common pattern. I think you could say something similar about Barker as well. I’d be tempted to include Betts in this list, though her game has improved in two years. I’m uncertain whether this happened at Stanford or UCLA. But I suspect her departure from Tara’s program may have resulted from the pressure to improve her game as much as a perceived lack of playing time.

It is really difficult to recruit kids who have prodigious talent in hs and are willing to put up with the hard work of development. The growth of the transfer portal has made it even more difficult. The coaches for whom development is a signature are few and far between. We can all list a few big names. But coaches on the edge of fame are also recognizable.

 

[cancontent]

I don’t think I’d blame SC or Dawn for her lack of development. It’s a common pattern. I think you could say something similar about Barker as well. I’d be tempted to include Betts in this list, though her game has improved in two years. I’m uncertain whether this happened at Stanford or UCLA. But I suspect her departure from Tara’s program may have resulted from the pressure to improve her game as much as a perceived lack of playing time.

It is really difficult to recruit kids who have prodigious talent in hs and are willing to put up with the hard work of development. The growth of the transfer portal has made it even more difficult. The coaches for whom development is a signature are few and far between. We can all list a few big names. But coaches on the edge of fame are also recognizable.

Agreed. My comments weren't in regards to Coach Staley or the South Carolina program. Programs can only do so much for a player. Development has to be something a player wants to do for themselves.

 

[GamecockFam]

Agreed. My comments weren't in regards to Coach Staley or the South Carolina program. Programs can only do so much for a player. Development has to be something a player wants to do for themselves.

She seems to have the "want to". Everything I heard and saw at South Carolina showed that she is trying. I've always theorized her issues stem from the mental aspect of the game. She has sub-par basketball instincts and she tends to think that playing harder/stronger will make up for it and in reality it just compounds the issue.

 

[cancontent]

She seems to have the "want to". Everything I heard and saw at South Carolina showed that she is trying. I've always theorized her issues stem from the mental aspect of the game. She has sub-par basketball instincts and she tends to think that playing harder/stronger will make up for it and in reality it just compounds the issue.

Time will tell. Wanting to is one thing. The willingness to do it is another. Many of us "want to" do a lot of things but never accomplish those goals for various reasons. Fortunately for her, she's young and has the opportunity to change things.

 

[WBBTakeover]

Subjectively? South Carolina (I am very biased here)

Objectively? UCLA (I still believe in Kiki Rice)

 

[visitingcock]

Subjectively? South Carolina (I am very biased here)

Objectively? UCLA (I still believe in Kiki Rice)

I would say that you are being subjective about UCLA because Kiki and Lauren have never made it to the elite 8. Will Timea change that? I have doubts ( though my doubts may arise from coaching rather than talent)

 

[WBBTakeover]

I would say that you are being subjective about UCLA because Kiki and Lauren have never made it to the elite 8. Will Timea change that? I have doubts ( though my doubts may arise from coaching rather than talent)

The coaching issue, not the talent, is why I'm not sold on UCLA.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

IMHO there are coaches in WBB Division I that are/were great recruiters but lousy game coaches!
Cori Close is one of them!
Some others:
Kristy Curry
Sylvia Hatchell retired
Holly Warlick retired
Matthew Mitchell retired
Lindsay Gottlieb (still to be tested at USC)

 

[Bone Dog]

I would say that you are being subjective about UCLA because Kiki and Lauren have never made it to the elite 8. Will Timea change that? I have doubts ( though my doubts may arise from coaching rather than talent)

I have my doubts, too.

 

[visitingcock]

The coaching issue, not the talent, is why I'm not sold on UCLA.

She may beat us in November in LA. My money will still be in Dawn in March-April

 

[GirlBoo1020]

Anyone else getting excited knowing the kids will be headed to campus soon to start the school year and practices will be starting in just over a month or so? I am obviously a UConn fan but excited to kick this season off across the country and hopefully I am emotionally equipped to deal with whatever blows the basketball Gods deal out this season.

 

[jdote33]

Subjectively? South Carolina (I am very biased here)

Objectively? UCLA (I still believe in Kiki Rice)

I agree. This is kinda how I still feel after a month of pondering. I'm uconn bias but nonetheless believe UCLA has a great roster.

UConn vs UCLA

Betts > Jana
Gardiner > Strong
Jaquez < Paige
Jones <Azzi
Rice > KK

Barker> Ice
Ledger Walker > Kaitlyn Chen
Dugalic < Ashlyn
5-3 UCLA

Ucla vs South Carolina
Betts> Watkins
Gardiner> Kitts
Jaquez = Hall
Jones < Paopao
Rice> Johnson

Barker > Feagin
Ledger Walker = Fulwiley
Dugalic < Tessa
4 -2 UCLA

UCLA vs Notre Dame
Betts > Koval
Gardiner = Westbeld
Jaquez < Citron
Jones < Hidalgo
Rice = Miles

Barker = King
Ledger walker > Prosper
Dugalic = Karlen
Notre Dame and UCLA tied.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

I agree. This is kinda how I still feel after a month of pondering. I'm uconn bias but nonetheless believe UCLA has a great roster.

UConn vs UCLA

Betts > Jana
Gardiner > Strong
Jaquez < Paige
Jones <Azzi
Rice > KK

Barker> Ice
Ledger Walker > Kaitlyn Chen
Dugalic < Ashlyn
5-3 UCLA

Ucla vs South Carolina
Betts> Watkins
Gardiner> Kitts
Jaquez = Hall
Jones < Paopao
Rice> Johnson

Barker > Feagin
Ledger Walker = Fulwiley
Dugalic < Tessa
4 -2 UCLA

UCLA vs Notre Dame
Betts > Koval
Gardiner = Westbeld
Jaquez < Citron
Jones < Hidalgo
Rice = Miles

Barker = King
Ledger walker > Prosper
Dugalic = Karlen
Notre Dame and UCLA tied.

some of these takes a wild! Gardiner and Westbled equal? Rice better than Johnson? Ledger Walker equal to Fulwiley? And that’s not even talking about the UConn comparisons.

 

[Bone Dog]

I agree. This is kinda how I still feel after a month of pondering. I'm uconn bias but nonetheless believe UCLA has a great roster.

UConn vs UCLA

Betts > Jana
Gardiner > Strong
Jaquez < Paige
Jones <Azzi
Rice > KK

Barker> Ice
Ledger Walker > Kaitlyn Chen
Dugalic < Ashlyn
5-3 UCLA

I read most of those matchups differently. 5>3 Uconn if you ask me. But that 3 could be enough to win it.

Betts Barker and Dugalic will be the winning matchups, and they could be enough to win it for them depending on how long they can stay on the floor. Jacquez, Jones, Rice and Ledger-Walker are all losing matchups if Azzi plays, and these won't be one-v-one matchups either. And I suspect Ice will be too much for Gardner now that she has a year under her belt. Jacquez is good, but she will not be able to run with Paige any better than Sellars did last season. And when Rice switches onto her, it will be like being taken to school. Same with Azzi, and don't forget Kaitlyn, who almost beat them single-handedly last season, and that was when they had Osborne. Now maybe Azzi won't be back for this game, but if she is, look out. Containing her and Paige -- not happening. And if they light it up, the rest of the team will be unleashed.

Last season Paige scored 31 on a poor shooting night for her (though she hit 5-11 3s) with only Aaliyah and Ice against Betts Dugalic Sonntag, and Ice had yet to find her feet in Geno's system. Most of Paige's scoring was spent in a desperate comeback effort. Same goes for KK and Ash. This meant Paige had no openings in the paint. Essentially, Aaliyah was way outmuscled. Aubrey did a little better because of the matchup problem she poses for any team. This was essentially a frontline win. Rice and Osborne scored 42 between them, but I thought that was largely due to what the frontline advantage did to Geno's defense. You can challenge shooters much more aggressively if you know you have a pair of rim-protectors behind you.

The main UCLA advantage is in the front court and I don't see Jana and Sarah being able to contain Betts & Co in the long run, especially with Barker as a wildcard. If Aubrey were back, that might make a difference. But as it is, Geno's plan is likely to be to see if his backcourt can take enough of the pressure off his front court to allow Jana to hold her own at least for a little while. The puzzle for Close is whether she can run a big lineup for long stretches or if that will be too slow. This is where Barker is important, the only quick big she has. Otherwise, I suspect she won't be able to keep Betts on the floor for long alongside Gardner or Dugalic. Jana and Ice or Sarah against Gardner and Dugalic -- I like those odds.

If Close can't count on Barker for major minutes, can she play a lineup like Betts Rice Jones Jacquez and Ledger-Walker against Paige Azzi Kaitlyn Sarah and Jana? I doubt it. Paige Kaitlyn and Azzi (or Sarah) would light them up. And with subs like KK and Ash able to sub win, this will be a difficult lineup to tire out. Geno doesn't need his freshmen to work wonders for him, but a couple of them just might. And subbing Dugalic or Gardner for Jacquez just makes them too slow.

On the other hand, if Barker and Betts play well together, I think UCLA has a significant advantage. That will take the pressure of Rice and Jones to make the backcourt work.

 

[Reypl21]

I read most of those matchups differently. 5>3 Uconn if you ask me. But that 3 could be enough to win it.

Betts Barker and Dugalic will be the winning matchups, and they could be enough to win it for them depending on how long they can stay on the floor. Jacquez, Jones, Rice and Ledger-Walker are all losing matchups if Azzi plays, and these won't be one-v-one matchups either. And I suspect Ice will be too much for Gardner now that she has a year under her belt. Jacquez is good, but she will not be able to run with Paige any better than Sellars did last season. And when Rice switches onto her, it will be like being taken to school. Same with Azzi, and don't forget Kaitlyn, who almost beat them single-handedly last season, and that was when they had Osborne. Now maybe Azzi won't be back for this game, but if she is, look out. Containing her and Paige -- not happening. And if they light it up, the rest of the team will be unleashed.

Last season Paige scored 31 on a poor shooting night for her (though she hit 5-11 3s) with only Aaliyah and Ice against Betts Dugalic Sonntag, and Ice had yet to find her feet in Geno's system. Most of Paige's scoring was spent in a desperate comeback effort. Same goes for KK and Ash. This meant Paige had no openings in the paint. Essentially, Aaliyah was way outmuscled. Aubrey did a little better because of the matchup problem she poses for any team. This was essentially a frontline win. Rice and Osborne scored 42 between them, but I thought that was largely due to what the frontline advantage did to Geno's defense. You can challenge shooters much more aggressively if you know you have a pair of rim-protectors behind you.

The main UCLA advantage is in the front court and I don't see Jana and Sarah being able to contain Betts & Co in the long run, especially with Barker as a wildcard. If Aubrey were back, that might make a difference. But as it is, Geno's plan is likely to be to see if his backcourt can take enough of the pressure off his front court to allow Jana to hold her own at least for a little while. The puzzle for Close is whether she can run a big lineup for long stretches or if that will be too slow. This is where Barker is important, the only quick big she has. Otherwise, I suspect she won't be able to keep Betts on the floor for long alongside Gardner or Dugalic. Jana and Ice or Sarah against Gardner and Dugalic -- I like those odds.

If Close can't count on Barker for major minutes, can she play a lineup like Betts Rice Jones Jacquez and Ledger-Walker against Paige Azzi Kaitlyn Sarah and Jana? I doubt it. Paige Kaitlyn and Azzi (or Sarah) would light them up. And with subs like KK and Ash able to sub win, this will be a difficult lineup to tire out. Geno doesn't need his freshmen to work wonders for him, but a couple of them just might. And subbing Dugalic or Gardner for Jacquez just makes them too slow.

On the other hand, if Barker and Betts play well together, I think UCLA has a significant advantage. That will take the pressure of Rice and Jones to make the backcourt work.

I think you're underestimating Gardiner. She's not uber athletic, but she is definitely not slow for a big. Plus she has a great 3 point shot, and can shoot off the dribble. She has a pro game. She can definitely play alongside Betts, and I think she will excel as the stretch 4 to make the defense pay if they double Betts. I'm not sure if she will start since Dugalic is back, but she is the better option at the 4. Brady could probably overpower her in the paint, but Brady will have to try and defend her on the perimeter as well.

 

[Bone Dog]

I think you're underestimating Gardiner. She's not uber athletic, but she is definitely not slow for a big. Plus she has a great 3 point shot, and can shoot off the dribble. She has a pro game. She can definitely play alongside Betts, and I think she will excel as the stretch 4 to make the defense pay if they double Betts. I'm not sure if she will start since Dugalic is back, but she is the better option at the 4. Brady could probably overpower her in the paint, but Brady will have to try and defend her on the perimeter as well.

You could be right. Though Ice has a midrange and a perimeter game, too. And if Sarah finds her comfort level, I don't see Gardner being able to handle her inside or outside. Still, it will be good for UCLA to have another perimeter threat after they lost Osborne. The thing is, they just don't have near as many as Geno has. It's essentially Jones, and maybe Bessoir if she can return from the injury. So Gardner will be a welcome addition. This is why I wonder If that is how Close will want to use her lineup? I mean, if she can't out shoot UConn from the perimeter (or in the midrange), then they damn well better be able to outrun them.

 

[Alydar]

It's difficult to judge the talent level of freshmen at this point but any edge that UCLA has is countered by UConn's superiority when it comes to team play. Close has had her share of talent over the years but too often they resort to 1 on 1 play. It works during the season but in the tournament not so much.

 

[jake0414]

You could be right. Though Ice has a midrange and a perimeter game, too. And if Sarah finds her comfort level, I don't see Gardner being able to handle her inside or outside. Still, it will be good for UCLA to have another perimeter threat after they lost Osborne. The thing is, they just don't have near as many as Geno has. It's essentially Jones, and maybe Bessoir if she can return from the injury. So Gardner will be a welcome addition. This is why I wonder If that is how Close will want to use her lineup? I mean, if she can't out shoot UConn from the perimeter (or in the midrange), then they damn well better be able to outrun them.

Emily Bessoir opted to forego her extra year of eligibility and won’t return next season. Lina Sontag also “retired” from NCAA D1 WBB and returned to Germany. Both made Germany’s Olympic team though neither played major minutes. Forward Christeen Iwuala transferred to Ole Miss. Those three have been replaced by Juniors Gardiner, Barker and Grad transfer Leger-Walker. I think the replacements constitute an upgrade though Leger-Walker remains a question mark returning from an ACL injury.

Incoming UCLA freshmen guards Avary Cain and Elina Aarnisalo (from Finland) have the potential to score consistently from the perimeter. I don’t know how much playing time they will get given the depth of the Bruin roster.

As best as I can tell UConn and UCLA unfortunately won’t meet in the non-conference part of the schedule so unless they meet in the NCAA tournament the comparisons asserted above will remain purely speculative. I do hope we get to see the teams play one another this coming season and we can revisit the ‘who’s got the better roster?’ discussion.

 

[GirlBoo1020]

I agree. This is kinda how I still feel after a month of pondering. I'm uconn bias but nonetheless believe UCLA has a great roster.

UConn vs UCLA

Betts > Jana
Gardiner > Strong
Jaquez < Paige
Jones <Azzi
Rice > KK

Barker> Ice
Ledger Walker > Kaitlyn Chen
Dugalic < Ashlyn
5-3 UCLA

Ucla vs South Carolina
Betts> Watkins
Gardiner> Kitts
Jaquez = Hall
Jones < Paopao
Rice> Johnson

Barker > Feagin
Ledger Walker = Fulwiley
Dugalic < Tessa
4 -2 UCLA

UCLA vs Notre Dame
Betts > Koval
Gardiner = Westbeld
Jaquez < Citron
Jones < Hidalgo
Rice = Miles

Barker = King
Ledger walker > Prosper
Dugalic = Karlen
Notre Dame and UCLA tied.

Not sure I understand the logic behind some of the match ups, tbh.

I would compare like this:

UConn vs UCLA

Betts > Jana
Gardiner > Ice
Jaquez < Azzi
Jones < Chen
Rice < Paige

Barker> Strong
Ledger Walker < KK (Leder Walker might not even be available to play until March, if at all)
Dugalic < Ashlyn
5-3 UConn in that case, 4-4 if you switch Dugalic and Ashlyn.

Ucla vs South Carolina
Betts> Feagin
Gardiner < Watkins
Jaquez = Hall
Jones < Paopao
Rice < Johnson

Barker > Kitts
Ledger Walker < Fulwiley
Dugalic < Tessa
6 -2 South Carolina

UCLA vs Notre Dame
Betts > Koval
Gardiner < Westbeld
Jaquez < Citron
Jones < Miles
Rice < Hildago

Barker > King
Ledger walker < Prosper
Dugalic > Karlen
Notre Dame and UCLA tied.
5-3 Notre Dame

I'm unclear why you rate a player like Ledger Walker so highly when I don't think most expect to even see her until February.

Hot take/unpopular opinion: Overall I felt the Pac 12 was overrated last year and its feeding into a lot of the perceptions of teams that got pac 12 transfers or were in the pac 12 last year. It was the conference with the highest percentage of bids through their conference and the highest seeds and they managed to get 1 team to the elite 8 and no teams to the final four. Some of those teams (cough Oregon State) were teams that performed greater than the some of their parts and now those parts have been broken up and I think some people will be underwhelmed with the individual talent. We shall see if this proves out over the course of this season but I had to get it off my chest.

 

[Reypl21]

You could be right. Though Ice has a midrange and a perimeter game, too. And if Sarah finds her comfort level, I don't see Gardner being able to handle her inside or outside. Still, it will be good for UCLA to have another perimeter threat after they lost Osborne. The thing is, they just don't have near as many as Geno has. It's essentially Jones, and maybe Bessoir if she can return from the injury. So Gardner will be a welcome addition. This is why I wonder If that is how Close will want to use her lineup? I mean, if she can't out shoot UConn from the perimeter (or in the midrange), then they damn well better be able to outrun them.

I am an Ice fan. I really liked her game in high school, and am excited to see how she develops. With that being said, her mid range and perimeter game is quite different from Gardiner's. Ice is more of a spot up shooter at this moment. In high school she showed that she can do dribble pull ups off of the 3 point line. I think she has more to her face up game, but it's not as quick and smooth as Gardiner's. Gardiner's is more guardlike and she can make shots on the move. And has a quick release that allows her to put up shots that are well contested. You do have a point, will she play the 3? That will be difficult. But she shot 39.5% from 3 last season. So maybe that's the plan.

Also, it's hard for me to right off a player guarding Strong when she hasn't played yet. It's a big "IF." UCLA's advantage is their front court. From what I remember from last years game, it seemed the game plan was to limit Betts. Limit Betts and take your chances on UCLA's guards. It would be a good game again if it happens.

 

[jdote33]

I love a good basketball discussion. lol.

some of these takes a wild! Gardiner and Westbled equal? Rice better than Johnson? Ledger Walker equal to Fulwiley? And that’s not even talking about the UConn comparisons.

Leger-Walker was All Pac-12 all 4 years, lead her team to a conference tournament championship as a junior, as an underdog. She's just a really good player. As a freshman she was averaging close to 19. I get she's coming off of injury, I honestly don't know when she'll come back.. She got hurt in late January. had surgery in February. If its an ACL injury, I'd assume 9-12 months - so late early December-February which is a big window. We will see, but I hope she doesn't rush and comes back when healthy. I like Fulwiley a lot but that's a lot of accolades and accomplishments as a number one option on a team. Fulwiley very well could be better than her, but I don't think it's that crazy to say she's equal to someone who before the injury could've very well got drafted this year. But if we're saying Prosper is better than her, than I'd rather just take Walker out and put someone else in.

I feel like a lot of wcbb fans don't have love for Kiki Rice. It's kinda strange to me. I think it's cause she struggled making a post entry pass against LSU. Alas, she averaged 13 6 and 5 on basically a top ten team as a sophomore. I like Raven Johnson a lot. It's close in my eyes, but I'll go with Kiki. No slight on Raven. I just think offensively Kiki is a lot better, in the half court and in transition and has had a lot more responsibility than Raven. Defensively obviously Raven is better and Raven is a better passer.

Gardiner and Westbeld.. I'm not sure that's really all that crazy. Gardiner's stats last year pretty much mirror what Westbeld did her sophomore and junior seasons. Also, they matched up in the tournament. Gardiner had 21 and 11. Westbeld had 19 and 2. Once again, it's pretty close. I just think Gardiner a bit more dynamic as she is a bit better of a shooter. And I kind of think she's ready to take off. She had a hard freshman season, impacted by injury. The past season, played some off the bench, before taking off. Ironically she may find herself in a similar situation this season with UCLA's front court depth, but if it were up to me, she'd start and I think she'd take off.

I tried to match them by position. I think KK or KC will start at point guard for Uconn. Kiki is the point guard for UCLA. Even though Jones is smaller and will probably defend point guards, she really doesn't run the team like a point. I did a similar thing with Notre Dame. I just would imagine that Olivia Miles would be running the team and Hannah Hidalgo would be playing more off ball, despite being a couple inches shorter. So that's why I matched up Miles with Kiki Rice.

For the Uconn one, which matchup specifically do you think I was way off base on. just curious