OT: What's Next Celtics Fans...?

[the Q]

Assuming you are right, it proves the point that the Celtics don't need to blow it up to rebuild. Yes some had Giannis with upside (it is unpossible to quantify the 'most' upside), others thought it a bad pick - but facts are what they are and he was picked AFTER so many guys. You mean to say every team that didn't pick Giannis acknowledged that Giannis had the most upside, yet chose someone else anyway?! C'mon - by nature of picking someone else, half the league didn't believe in Giannis or at a minimum believe it enough for it to be consensus. If it was, then he's the #1 pick! For example Philly, purposefully trying to tank and pick guys that wouldn't contribute right away chose MCW at 11. The freakin' Thunder could have undone their doom had they believed in Giannis over Steven Adams with pick #12 from Toronto via Houston via Harden trade debacle.

But IF you are right in any strange way, the Celtics will be able to get the guy with the highest upside in this draft with the Grizzlies pick at #8 or the Sacto pick at #14 (Giannis was actually picked 15th)!

It’s risk/reward. Depends how much risk teams want to assume.

No one wants the next Fran Vasquez

 

[the Q]

Assuming you are right, it proves the point that the Celtics don't need to blow it up to rebuild. Yes some had Giannis with upside (it is unpossible to quantify the 'most' upside), others thought it a bad pick - but facts are what they are and he was picked AFTER so many guys. You mean to say every team that didn't pick Giannis acknowledged that Giannis had the most upside, yet chose someone else anyway?! C'mon - by nature of picking someone else, half the league didn't believe in Giannis or at a minimum believe it enough for it to be consensus. If it was, then he's the #1 pick! For example Philly, purposefully trying to tank and pick guys that wouldn't contribute right away chose MCW at 11. The freakin' Thunder could have undone their doom had they believed in Giannis over Steven Adams with pick #12 from Toronto via Houston via Harden trade debacle.

But IF you are right in any strange way, the Celtics will be able to get the guy with the highest upside in this draft with the Grizzlies pick at #8 or the Sacto pick at #14 (Giannis was actually picked 15th)!

And he’s there are exceptions. But you don’t want to live on the edges.

It’s more like care counting.

 

[Lefty2one]

Dolan hasnt made a basketball decision in 6 years.That narrative is tired. The Knicks front office has been nothing short of professional and savvy(see the mitchell robinson pick).

Knicks trolls are lazy. Anyone who believes Dolan still has a hand in basketball operations is an idiot. Does anyone with a brain think the Porzingis trade would have happened if Dolan was still involved? That move was the antithesis of every Knicks move since Dolan bought the team.

 

[the Q]

Knicks trolls are lazy. Anyone who believes Dolan still has a hand in basketball operations is an idiot. Does anyone with a brain think the Porzingis trade would have happened if Dolan was still involved? That move was the antithesis of every Knicks move since Dolan bought the team.

I’d bet the farm Dolan still signed off on it

 

[Lefty2one]

Why would the Pels trade AD for Tatum and the Celtics young overrated pieces? The picks they have aren't likely to be top 5.

I'm not a Celtics fan but there really isn't going to be a great package out there for the Pels, unless something crazy shakes out in the lottery. The Lakers are pretty much out of it given Ingram's questionable long-term health. The Knicks or Bulls are probably the only other team that could put together a decent package if they land in the Top 3 of the lottery.

CHI: Some combination of Markkanen, Lavine, Carter, a 2019 Top 3 pick, future picks.
NYK: Mitch, Knox, this year's pick, future picks.

I’d bet the farm Dolan still signed off on it

Well of course, every owner has to sign off on every major move. He even said so in an interview; the deal came across his desk and he signed it without hesitation. If he was actually making decisions he absolutely vetos that deal.

 

[the Q]

I'm not a Celtics fan but there really isn't going to be a great package out there for the Pels, unless something crazy shakes out in the lottery. The Lakers are pretty much out of it given Ingram's questionable long-term health. The Knicks or Bulls are probably the only other team that could put together a decent package if they land in the Top 3 of the lottery.

CHI: Some combination of Markkanen, Lavine, Carter, a 2019 Top 3 pick, future picks.
NYK: Mitch, Knox, this year's pick, future picks.




Well of course, every owner has to sign off on every major move. He even said so in an interview; the deal came across his desk and he signed it without hesitation. If he was actually making decisions he absolutely vetos that deal.

And neither of those destinations will get a long term commitment without a lot of other shoes dropping. Cause neither is a potential winner without a lot more work after that.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I'm not a Celtics fan but there really isn't going to be a great package out there for the Pels, unless something crazy shakes out in the lottery. The Lakers are pretty much out of it given Ingram's questionable long-term health. The Knicks or Bulls are probably the only other team that could put together a decent package if they land in the Top 3 of the lottery.

CHI: Some combination of Markkanen, Lavine, Carter, a 2019 Top 3 pick, future picks.
NYK: Mitch, Knox, this year's pick, future picks.




Well of course, every owner has to sign off on every major move. He even said so in an interview; the deal came across his desk and he signed it without hesitation. If he was actually making decisions he absolutely vetos that deal.

The lottery will tell us a lot. If the Pelicans get a top 2 pick, maybe Davis stays. If Boston somehow gets a top 5 from Sacramento, maybe that plus players and the #20 is enough for New Orleans? But do they do it if AD won't extend? Lots of unanswered questions.

 

[the Q]

The lottery will tell us a lot. If the Pelicans get a top 2 pick, maybe Davis stays. If Boston somehow gets a top 5 from Sacramento, maybe that plus players and the #20 is enough for New Orleans? But do they do it if AD won't extend? Lots of unanswered questions.

You can’t trade for Davis unless Kyrie resigns first.

You tell him, here’s the Max.

Here’s who will he gone next year.

Here’s brow.

In or out?

It’s pretty simple for Boston.

If he can’t commit to that, idk how you make a deal.

 

[InKembaITrust]

You can’t trade for Davis unless Kyrie resigns first.

You tell him, here’s the Max.

Here’s who will he gone next year.

Here’s brow.

In or out?

It’s pretty simple for Boston.

If he can’t commit to that, idk how you make a deal.

Yeah I'd have to agree with this.

It is pretty straight forward for Kyrie. As unlikable as he was in the playoffs this year, he is very liked around the league so at the very least he'll attract big name players.

Could KD be in the cards as well?

 

[HuskyHawk]

You can’t trade for Davis unless Kyrie resigns first.

You tell him, here’s the Max.

Here’s who will he gone next year.

Here’s brow.

In or out?

It’s pretty simple for Boston.

If he can’t commit to that, idk how you make a deal.

Yeah. I just don't see it happening. I think Kyrie is gone, and they will move on from attempting to get Davis. But I think Ainge will try to trade for somebody else. Somebody unexpected.
This was interesting. Jaylen Brown vs. Jayson Tatum: NBA coaches, GMs weigh in on trade value of Celtics youngsters

 

[Lefty2one]

And neither of those destinations will get a long term commitment without a lot of other shoes dropping. Cause neither is a potential winner without a lot more work after that.

Right, which makes the Pels' job even more difficult.

I don't think it makes sense for many teams to go after AD, which is really weird considering he's one of the best seven or so players in the league. No team wants to repeat with the Knicks did with Carmelo--Boston or NY or CHI gutting their roster to get AD is pointless in the grand scheme of things. Even if the Knicks signed KD and traded for AD, that team isn't good enough to contend after shipping out most of their other pieces to get AD. Plus, we're far enough into AD's career that you can't help but question his impact on winning. For all his individual greatness, his teams in NO have underachieved. Big men don't have the impact they once did due to how today's game is played.

For all the flack Kyrie is getting, I'd still rather have the Knicks get KD and Kyrie (I'm fine with Kyrie as your #2, just not as a #1) than any scenario involving AD. I don't think it's going to happen, despite all the smoke, but it's fun to dream.

 

[the Q]

Right, which makes the Pels' job even more difficult.

I don't think it makes sense for many teams to go after AD, which is really weird considering he's one of the best seven or so players in the league. No team wants to repeat with the Knicks did with Carmelo--Boston or NY or CHI gutting their roster to get AD is pointless in the grand scheme of things. Even if the Knicks signed KD and traded for AD, that team isn't good enough to contend after shipping out most of their other pieces to get AD. Plus, we're far enough into AD's career that you can't help but question his impact on winning. For all his individual greatness, his teams in NO have underachieved. Big men don't have the impact they once did due to how today's game is played.

For all the flack Kyrie is getting, I'd still rather have the Knicks get KD and Kyrie (I'm fine with Kyrie as your #2, just not as a #1) than any scenario involving AD. I don't think it's going to happen, despite all the smoke, but it's fun to dream.

The Knicks can get all 3. It’s possible

 

[Lefty2one]

It is, then you're filling the roster with vet min contracts. It'd be an even tougher situation than it was with first year of the Heatles. But that'd a good problem to have.

 

[the Q]

It is, then you're filling the roster with vet min contracts. It'd be an even tougher situation than it was with first year of the Heatles. But that'd a good problem to have.

You’d also probably have someone on the MLe and the biannual excpetion.

Plus someone held over from last year....maybe.

 

[InKembaITrust]

Right, which makes the Pels' job even more difficult.

I don't think it makes sense for many teams to go after AD, which is really weird considering he's one of the best seven or so players in the league. No team wants to repeat with the Knicks did with Carmelo--Boston or NY or CHI gutting their roster to get AD is pointless in the grand scheme of things. Even if the Knicks signed KD and traded for AD, that team isn't good enough to contend after shipping out most of their other pieces to get AD. Plus, we're far enough into AD's career that you can't help but question his impact on winning. For all his individual greatness, his teams in NO have underachieved. Big men don't have the impact they once did due to how today's game is played.

For all the flack Kyrie is getting, I'd still rather have the Knicks get KD and Kyrie (I'm fine with Kyrie as your #2, just not as a #1) than any scenario involving AD. I don't think it's going to happen, despite all the smoke, but it's fun to dream.

I'm sorry, but if you can get Anthony Davis you get Anthony Davis.

Easily a top 5 NBA player. For the minimal games he played this season he went 26/12/4 with 2.5 blks and 80% from the FT line. Not to mention he's 26 years old, giving him a minimum of 7 solid years left barring any injuries.

I agree with you that there's always a risk investing in a player that is technically a 1 year rental, but Davis has already been quoted saying his legacy is far more important to him than the $. If Boston surrounds him with a winning cast and they make it to the finals his first year, why wouldn't he stay?

AD brought a below-average Pelicans team to the playoffs last year, swept the first series, and averaged 30/13.5/2/2, while shooting 83% from the FT line. He's a franchise-changing player on a big market team like the Celts. AD's style of play fits today's NBA perfectly because he can stretch the floor, hit the outside shot, and put the ball on the floor.

AD, Jokic, and Embiid are the best big men (Centers) next year and fit perfectly in today's NBA.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Knicks trolls are lazy. Anyone who believes Dolan still has a hand in basketball operations is an idiot. Does anyone with a brain think the Porzingis trade would have happened if Dolan was still involved? That move was the antithesis of every Knicks move since Dolan bought the team.

I'm certainly not lazy, but I do think trolling the Knicks fans with Dolan history & videos is valid UNTIL something goes right - like say winning basketball games. Can we wait for that until we crown your azzes?

I get they have salary cap space, but that in and of itself is nothing. Knick fans are morphing into Sixer Process truthers right before our eyes. I can understand Knicks fans buying in moreso than Sixers fans because the Knicks have been unintentionally bad, so its a fan psyche that justifiable should grab onto any hope. Its jumping the gun to say they are in great shape until the draft and free agency play out.

I'm honestly really hoping the Knicks get the #1 pick and Zion and at least one superstar free agent (KD). I love the karma of bringing frozen envelope Patrick Ewing to the lottery. I think it'd be great for basketball in general if the Knicks matter. I've been in Boston for 25yrs and other than the 'Honey Nut Cheerios incident', there really hasn't been a NY-Boston basketball rivalry during that time which is a crying shame. Sorry, but I blame the guy that's been in charge.

A reasoned view of Porzingis trade

 

[Waquoit]

I was at the barbershop this week and Jalen Rose was on the tube giving examples of wide-open guys that Kyrie ignored while jacking up suboptimal, double-teamed shots. I can't see how they can bring this guy back.

 

[the Q]

I was at the barbershop this week and Jalen Rose was on the tube giving examples of wide-open guys that Kyrie ignored while jacking up suboptimal, double-teamed shots. I can't see how they can bring this guy back.

I mean...they did break up the lakers for doing that to Shaq in the 04 finals...so there is something to this.

But keeping kyrie and figuring out how to make that work better is will their best path to contender ship in the next few years

 

[Waquoit]

But keeping kyrie and figuring out how to make that work better is will their best path to contender ship in the next few years

The only hope I see is they can pair him with a LeBron-level talent like Davis or Durant. I don't think the status quo can be figured out.

 

[the Q]

The only hope I see is they can pair him with a LeBron-level talent like Davis or Durant. I don't think the status quo can be figured out.

This I agree with. He has zero respect for brown and Tatum.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I was at the barbershop this week and Jalen Rose was on the tube giving examples of wide-open guys that Kyrie ignored while jacking up suboptimal, double-teamed shots. I can't see how they can bring this guy back.

It is definitely addition by subtraction. Just don't see either party wanting to continue, the fans are speaking loud & clearly.
If I were to bet $100 on various outcomes:
$90 he signs elsewhere - Put $50 on Nets 2.5-1 & $40 on Knicks 3-1 - either is 20%+ return
$10 sign & trade (no odds available, assume 10-1)- break even
$0 resigns with Celtics and try to make it work, 3.5-1 - not worth risking money, payback stinks on this bet and on the likelihood his ego continues to derail the Celtics. Brad Stevens might be falling on the sword, but he can't vote for resigning Kyrie without seriously risking its him gone after next year.

 

[the Q]

It is definitely addition by subtraction. Just don't see either party wanting to continue, the fans are speaking loud & clearly.
If I were to bet $100 on various outcomes:
$90 he signs elsewhere - Put $50 on Nets 2.5-1 & $40 on Knicks 3-1 - either is 20%+ return
$10 sign & trade (no odds available, assume 10-1)- break even
$0 resigns with Celtics and try to make it work, 3.5-1 - not worth risking money, payback stinks on this bet and on the likelihood his ego continues to derail the Celtics. Brad Stevens might be falling on the sword, but he can't vote for resigning Kyrie without seriously risking its him gone after next year.

The problem with a sign and trade is it would require Horford to also opt out, otherwise I believe the Celtics can only receive picks and not any players back.

 

[HuskyHawk]

The problem with a sign and trade is it would require Horford to also opt out, otherwise I believe the Celtics can only receive picks and not any players back.

I keep looking for verification of that. They can certainly pay Kyrie more than anybody else can. So if they can sign and trade, that would be huge. Some pretty good analysis here. What happens to Celtics salary cap if Kyrie Irving leaves?

 

[the Q]

I keep looking for verification of that. They can certainly pay Kyrie more than anybody else can. So if they can sign and trade, that would be huge. Some pretty good analysis here. What happens to Celtics salary cap if Kyrie Irving leaves?

The nba has made the sign and trade rules in a massively shortsighted way that has only hurt smaller teams.

Not being able to get assets back only hurts these teams.

And I love watching the nba make these major mistakes.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I keep looking for verification of that. They can certainly pay Kyrie more than anybody else can. So if they can sign and trade, that would be huge. Some pretty good analysis here. What happens to Celtics salary cap if Kyrie Irving leaves?

Good link!. It is very complicated. Seems like if both Irving and Horford leave the Celtics could have a big $ slot, but as the writer says that's not the most likely scenario. I think both sides want Horford back.

I just assumed there is/was sign and trade possibility for Kyrie - if you can sign him (which they can), then you can trade him. But apparently the benefit of signing at the higher contract (5yrs, 8% bumps) is immediately stripped away under new rules - so sign and trades are now useless for big money players. Found this at hoopsrumors. I'll take the $10 I was going to wager on sign and trade and put it on the Lakers at 7.5-1

Players can only get true maximum salary contracts if they remain with their previous team.
Under the old CBA, a sign-and-trade deal allowed a player to sign for the true max – in terms of total years and annual raises – even though he wasn’t remaining with his previous team. That’s no longer the case.

If, for instance, the Raptors were to sign-and-trade Lowry to another club, he wouldn’t be able to receive the five years or 8% annual raises that he would if he re-signed with Toronto — he’d still be eligible for the same starting salary, but would be limited to four years and 5% raises, reducing the overall value of his max contract by about $50MM.