OT: - What's Next Celtics Fans...? | Page 5 | The Boneyard

OT: What's Next Celtics Fans...?

Waquoit said:
I was at the barbershop this week and Jalen Rose was on the tube giving examples of wide-open guys that Kyrie ignored while jacking up suboptimal, double-teamed shots. I can't see how they can bring this guy back.
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It is definitely addition by subtraction. Just don't see either party wanting to continue, the fans are speaking loud & clearly.
If I were to bet $100 on various outcomes:
$90 he signs elsewhere - Put $50 on Nets 2.5-1 & $40 on Knicks 3-1 - either is 20%+ return
$10 sign & trade (no odds available, assume 10-1)- break even
$0 resigns with Celtics and try to make it work, 3.5-1 - not worth risking money, payback stinks on this bet and on the likelihood his ego continues to derail the Celtics. Brad Stevens might be falling on the sword, but he can't vote for resigning Kyrie without seriously risking its him gone after next year.
 
Dogdeacon said:
It is definitely addition by subtraction. Just don't see either party wanting to continue, the fans are speaking loud & clearly.
If I were to bet $100 on various outcomes:
$90 he signs elsewhere - Put $50 on Nets 2.5-1 & $40 on Knicks 3-1 - either is 20%+ return
$10 sign & trade (no odds available, assume 10-1)- break even
$0 resigns with Celtics and try to make it work, 3.5-1 - not worth risking money, payback stinks on this bet and on the likelihood his ego continues to derail the Celtics. Brad Stevens might be falling on the sword, but he can't vote for resigning Kyrie without seriously risking its him gone after next year.
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The problem with a sign and trade is it would require Horford to also opt out, otherwise I believe the Celtics can only receive picks and not any players back.
 
the Q said:
The problem with a sign and trade is it would require Horford to also opt out, otherwise I believe the Celtics can only receive picks and not any players back.
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I keep looking for verification of that. They can certainly pay Kyrie more than anybody else can. So if they can sign and trade, that would be huge. Some pretty good analysis here. What happens to Celtics salary cap if Kyrie Irving leaves?
 
HuskyHawk said:
I keep looking for verification of that. They can certainly pay Kyrie more than anybody else can. So if they can sign and trade, that would be huge. Some pretty good analysis here. What happens to Celtics salary cap if Kyrie Irving leaves?
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The nba has made the sign and trade rules in a massively shortsighted way that has only hurt smaller teams.

Not being able to get assets back only hurts these teams.

And I love watching the nba make these major mistakes.
 
HuskyHawk said:
I keep looking for verification of that. They can certainly pay Kyrie more than anybody else can. So if they can sign and trade, that would be huge. Some pretty good analysis here. What happens to Celtics salary cap if Kyrie Irving leaves?
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Good link!. It is very complicated. Seems like if both Irving and Horford leave the Celtics could have a big $ slot, but as the writer says that's not the most likely scenario. I think both sides want Horford back.

I just assumed there is/was sign and trade possibility for Kyrie - if you can sign him (which they can), then you can trade him. But apparently the benefit of signing at the higher contract (5yrs, 8% bumps) is immediately stripped away under new rules - so sign and trades are now useless for big money players. Found this at hoopsrumors. I'll take the $10 I was going to wager on sign and trade and put it on the Lakers at 7.5-1

Players can only get true maximum salary contracts if they remain with their previous team.
Under the old CBA, a sign-and-trade deal allowed a player to sign for the true max – in terms of total years and annual raises – even though he wasn’t remaining with his previous team. That’s no longer the case.

If, for instance, the Raptors were to sign-and-trade Lowry to another club, he wouldn’t be able to receive the five years or 8% annual raises that he would if he re-signed with Toronto — he’d still be eligible for the same starting salary, but would be limited to four years and 5% raises, reducing the overall value of his max contract by about $50MM.
 
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A friend of mine, who manages a high-end massage parlor in Manhattan, told me that she keeps hearing that if the Knicks don't win next year, Dolan is bringing back Isiah.
 
InKembaITrust said:
I'm sorry, but if you can get Anthony Davis you get Anthony Davis. If Boston surrounds him with a winning cast and they make it to the finals his first year, why wouldn't he stay?
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I don't think that's realistic. If you lose Kyrie and trade a bunch of assets to acquire AD, that team isn't going to be good enough to get to the Finals. Hell, even if you keep Kyrie I don't think a Kyrie/AD/Hayward core is getting you to the Finals. Of course, this all changes if the Celtics get lucky as hell on Tuesday night.

AD brought a below-average Pelicans team to the playoffs last year, swept the first series, and averaged 30/13.5/2/2, while shooting 83% from the FT line. He's a franchise-changing player on a big market team like the Celts. AD's style of play fits today's NBA perfectly because he can stretch the floor, hit the outside shot, and put the ball on the floor.
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For as great as AD was, the biggest reason the Pels swept that series was because Rondo and Jrue vastly outplayed Lillard and McCollum.
 
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Dogdeacon said:
I'm certainly not lazy, but I do think trolling the Knicks fans with Dolan history & videos is valid UNTIL something goes right - like say winning basketball games. Can we wait for that until we crown your azzes?
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Who on earth is crowning the Knicks? Some people, not even the entire media, praised their moves this year as shrewd and smart, something that's never been said about a Knicks FO. They're making smart basketball moves--gaining flexibility and assets--and most of the Internet is still lolKnicks. Dolan hanging over the franchise like some boogieman is silly. If you want to laugh at Phil or Rambis or Hornacek or Mills over the last five years then fine, but Dolan isn't part of the problem.

I get they have salary cap space, but that in and of itself is nothing. Knick fans are morphing into Sixer Process truthers right before our eyes. I can understand Knicks fans buying in moreso than Sixers fans because the Knicks have been unintentionally bad, so its a fan psyche that justifiable should grab onto any hope. Its jumping the gun to say they are in great shape until the draft and free agency play out.
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It's not just about cap space. It's about a multi-year rebuild and beginning to do the right thing for the first time in over 20 years. The Knicks had two options before the trade deadline.

1) Hitch their wagon to KP (let's assume he agreed to his max extension) and still be in search of a #1. This was a trap; it wasn't going to work. Many Knicks fans turned on KP quickly and underrated him but still, all along most smart Knicks fans knew KP was never going to be a #1. He's not Jokic or Embiid. He can go to Dallas and be their #2 behind Luka. The problem with giving KP the max is that it'd kill their future flexibility. They were going to be stuck in a terrible spot for a few more years, wouldn't be able to land a star FA, and probably would be treadmilling at 35-40 wins at best. Classic Knicks of the last 20 years. They avoided that. The treadmill is the absolute worst place to be as an NBA franchise. Either be blowing it up or contending. I'd much rather trade KP and bottom out for a few years.

If they didn't make that trade they wouldn't have had a single max slot open this summer. The other thing that seemed clear, if the Knicks did somehow free up a max slot, was that no marquee FAs had any interest in coming to play with KP. If we ignore that for a second, for argument's sake, something like a KP + Kyrie Knicks team would be an absolute disaster over the next five years. Two injury prone #2 guys and no true #1.

2) Start over and move on from a risky #2 piece. Get space, flexibility, and future picks. This isn't about just the cap space; if the Knicks strike out in FA this summer (which they will) then they can stay the course and keep building. Add more young pieces, retain their flexibility, and keep trying. The NBA is all about finding your cornerstone, like the article you shared discussed, and KP wasn't that (I disagree with the author of that article). He's a #3 on a championship team, maybe a #2 as a ceiling. He's never going to be a #1.

I have said this all along, if the roles were flipped in the KP trade the media would have destroyed the Knicks. If they traded multiple first round picks and took on bad contracts to get a 7'3" guy coming off a torn ACL and who had durability issues before the knee injury? My lord, we'd still be hearing about how stupid they are.

Sorry, but I blame the guy that's been in charge.
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That's where we have to agree to disagree. The guy isn't in charge anymore. He's not overriding Donny Walsh to force the Melo trade anymore; as I said before, he would have vetoed the KP trade if this was ten years ago. This isn't a Jerry Jones or Al Davis situation.
 
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BigErnMcCracken said:
Eh, I don't remember that. But Tatum had a hell of a run down the stretch last year - people were right to be exceptionally high on him. Then he worked out with Kobe all summer and was terrible this year.
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And he was at his best with no Kylie and no Hayward. I think he’s an all star talent, if he gets the opportunity. He will be better next year. But he and Hayward play the same position and arguably so does Brown.

I don’t agree with people who think you need a top 5 star to win. What you do need is a leader and Tatum isn’t it. Brown might become one. He’s smart and he gets it. You need guys like Garnett who just don’t tolerate selfish play. Lebron and AD on meh team have done nothing.

I don’t see them getting AD or KD. But I think Danny is going to find a way to bring in a leader. Kemba would be that guy, but there is really no way. It’s sad for him, as he could totally be what Kylie couldn’t.
 
HuskyHawk said:
And he was at his best with no Kylie and no Hayward. I think he’s an all star talent, if he gets the opportunity. He will be better next year. But he and Hayward play the same position and arguably so does Brown.

I don’t agree with people who think you need a top 5 star to win. What you do need is a leader and Tatum isn’t it. Brown might become one. He’s smart and he gets it. You need guys like Garnett who just don’t tolerate selfish play. Lebron and AD on meh team have done nothing.

I don’t see them getting AD or KD. But I think Danny is going to find a way to bring in a leader. Kemba would be that guy, but there is really no way. It’s sad for him, as he could totally be what Kylie couldn’t.
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To get kemba would require Kyrie leaving, al opting out and renouncing Morris and rozier....AND kemba has to take a lot less money.
 
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The Lakers just hired two Head Coaches. Kidd does not play well in the sandbox with anyone, and the Lakers only gave Vogel a 3 year contract, effectively firing him as soon as they hired him. Even the Knicks, at their most idiotic, never came up with something this stupid.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
The Lakers just hired two Head Coaches. Kidd does not play well in the sandbox with anyone, and the Lakers only gave Vogel a 3 year contract, effectively firing him as soon as they hired him. Even the Knicks, at their most idiotic, never came up with something this stupid.
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Over/Under until Kidd takes over? 45 games? This is a compromise decision. Half of their FO seemed to want Kidd as the HC, a guy who is probably one of the worst coaches in recent memory. It's amazing how up until very recently, Buss had a very good reputation. That's what happens when you have many friends in the media. The Lakers just hired two recently fired coaches whose former teams were immediately better the minute they were replaced.
 
Walker11 said:
Over/Under until Kidd takes over? 45 games? This is a compromise decision. Half of their FO seemed to want Kidd as the HC, a guy who is probably one of the worst coaches in recent memory. It's amazing how up until very recently, Buss had a very good reputation. That's what happens when you have many friends in the media. The Lakers just hired two recently fired coaches whose former teams were immediately better the minute they were replaced.
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I am a Bucks fan, and I think Kidd is OK as a coach. He is impossible to deal with though, and would try to sabotage this situation under the best of circumstances. When the Lakers chose to only give Vogel three years, they were basically handing Kidd a box of dynamite with matches. This will blow up by mid-season.
 
Walker11 said:
Over/Under until Kidd takes over? 45 games? This is a compromise decision. Half of their FO seemed to want Kidd as the HC, a guy who is probably one of the worst coaches in recent memory. It's amazing how up until very recently, Buss had a very good reputation. That's what happens when you have many friends in the media. The Lakers just hired two recently fired coaches whose former teams were immediately better the minute they were replaced.
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Buss ran the business side of one of the most valuable sports franchises on the planet. It’s a very hard thing to mess up on that end.

Basketball wise she’s been just as bad as her brother.

They wanted kidd around to work with Lonzo Ball. steep price to pay. This is what position coaches are for no?
 
HuskyHawk said:
And he was at his best with no Kylie and no Hayward. I think he’s an all star talent, if he gets the opportunity. He will be better next year. But he and Hayward play the same position and arguably so does Brown.

I don’t agree with people who think you need a top 5 star to win. What you do need is a leader and Tatum isn’t it. Brown might become one. He’s smart and he gets it. You need guys like Garnett who just don’t tolerate selfish play. Lebron and AD on meh team have done nothing.

I don’t see them getting AD or KD. But I think Danny is going to find a way to bring in a leader. Kemba would be that guy, but there is really no way. It’s sad for him, as he could totally be what Kylie couldn’t.
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How many teams this century have won it without a top 5 player? Maybe 2 or 3ish.
 
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the Q said:
How many teams this century have won it without a top 5 player? Maybe 2 or 3ish.
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2004 - Pistons
2008 - Celtics
2011 - Mavs
2014 - Spurs

I think those are the only ones there's a case for, and not even sure the last 3 have a strong argument
 
navery12 said:
2004 - Pistons
2008 - Celtics
2011 - Mavs
2014 - Spurs

I think those are the only ones there's a case for, and not even sure the last 3 have a strong argument
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KG was absolutely top 5 in 08.

The others are who I was thinking of.
 
Celtics should keep Horford and one of either Tatum or Brown. Tatum is more of a scorer, but needs help on the defensive end. Brown is a solid defender and great athlete who shoots better than his first year.

No matter what they will need a pg as they will lose Irving and Rozier.
 
The Celtics picks do not fall kindly with a few of their core needs.

No pg is worth 14 and I could argue the same for 20 and 22.

They’d have to get to 6 to get a pg in this draft, not sure it’s worth it.

I really want to get Okeke at 22. He’s a lottery pick with a red shirt year due to that injury during the ncaa tournament.

Bol bol is worth the gamble at any pick imo. Top 5 talent. But big risks.

The value of the celts picks tend to be in the front court (based on projections/mock drafts).

Getting Davies bol and Okeke is the most efficient and best chance for impact players, but ignores some big needs in the backcourt. But again, the best players on the board are likely to be front court players.

It’ll be fun to watch.
 
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the Q said:
The Celtics picks do not fall kindly with a few of their core needs.

No pg is worth 14 and I could argue the same for 20 and 22.

They’d have to get to 6 to get a pg in this draft, not sure it’s worth it.

I really want to get Okeke at 22. He’s a lottery pick with a red shirt year due to that injury during the ncaa tournament.

Bol bol is worth the gamble at any pick imo. Top 5 talent. But big risks.

The value of the celts picks tend to be in the front court (based on projections/mock drafts).

Getting Davies bol and Okeke is the most efficient and best chance for impact players, but ignores some big needs in the backcourt. But again, the best players on the board are likely to be front court players.

It’ll be fun to watch.
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Let's see what Danny does in the trade market. Conley may be available, but is expensive salary wise. Rozier may come back. His market isn't going to be beating down the door given the other FA PGs and the three top draft pick PGs.

I agree the PGs Morant, Garland and White will be gone by#7. I really liked Garland for Boston because of his shooting.

My guess is that #14 is either Bitadze or Herro. Boston can use a deep threat SG as well, even though both Brown and Smart play there at times. What confidence does Stevens have in Smart playing PG? If he thinks Smart can, Celtics need a SG.

I'll be upset if 20 or 22 doesn't turn into Porter. He's the gamble I'd take. Bol Bol looks like a bust to me, but may be worth a similar risk.
 
HuskyHawk said:
Let's see what Danny does in the trade market. Conley may be available, but is expensive salary wise. Rozier may come back. His market isn't going to be beating down the door given the other FA PGs and the three top draft pick PGs.

I agree the PGs Morant, Garland and White will be gone by#7. I really liked Garland for Boston because of his shooting.

My guess is that #14 is either Bitadze or Herro. Boston can use a deep threat SG as well, even though both Brown and Smart play there at times. What confidence does Stevens have in Smart playing PG? If he thinks Smart can, Celtics need a SG.

I'll be upset if 20 or 22 doesn't turn into Porter. He's the gamble I'd take. Bol Bol looks like a bust to me, but may be worth a similar risk.
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I’m thinking rozier gets an offer from Chicago.

I have zero interest in porter. One dimensional selfish player.

Herro doesn’t do much. He’s a shooter with limited wingspan. And not much else.

If Danny is gonna reach for a g at 14 I’d rather take Nickeil Alexander-walker.

Him and smart are both combo guards.
 
People were too high on the Celtics coming into last season and have over-corrected to be too low. If both Hayward & Horford are back & healthy they really only need a PG that can defend and penetrate effectively. Kemba of course would be ideal and a bonus (put them back among top 3-4 in east), Brogdon or similar would be fine too.

Its crazy that people are so high on the Lakers with 3 players whereas the Raptors just proved 7 really strong players makes a champion. Celtics do have 5 strong (Hayward, Horford, Brown, Tatum, Smart) it will definitely be hard to get 2 more and the fact that one of them likely needs to be a top-ten adds to the difficulty, but they are still in the mix to contend for foreseeable future, just not currently a roster in title contention. Given their draft picks I think its right (not that they had a choice) to not trade 2 of their 5 for the superstar because that would have been 2 steps back for 1 forward. Pressure is certainly on to draft or trade well this year and to get luckier in the lottery next year (esp if they trade one of this year's pick for more lottery balls in 2020).
 
Giannis wants Brogdon, Middleton and Lopez back, and I think all 3 want to stay. That will still take a cap miracle to pull off. Mirotic and Hill are impossible to bring back, and if I was the Celtics I would focus on Hill. He is EXACTLY what Boston needs.
 
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