Vital - Kenpom AAC POY (thus far) | Page 6 | The Boneyard

Vital - Kenpom AAC POY (thus far)

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This. He would be a Craig Austrie type with more athleticism.

Vital was a key guy early in his career as one of the only guys to play hard and play with pride on those KO teams.

He's tough, he plays great defense, he rebounds terrifically for a guard. He gets tremendous respect for all of that.

But his play on the offensive end almost always strikes you as the kind of play you'd expect from the leader of a losing team -- forced drives into traffic, ill-advised and heat-check 3's early in the shot clock, hero ball late.

We're trying to move beyond those habits. That's where the frustration comes from. He was better yesterday, but the lack of winning throughout his tenure -- and his style of play being emblematic of it -- is a reason why he isn't a universal favorite.

The guy we can probably compare him the best to is Albert Mouring. Mouring a better shooter, both very good defenders with CV a better rebounder. That's about where he would project back in those days although I do believe Albert was a little better but not as aggressive overall.
 

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Cumberland went off for 22, 28, 17, and 24 points in his previous four games. CV was the primary guard who held him to 9 points. CV frustrated a genuinely talented player who would be talented in any league at any point in the history of the game.

Not many UConn players in the past would have done as well imo.
 
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Cumberland went off for 22, 28, 17, and 24 points in his previous four games. CV was the primary guard who held him to 9 points. CV frustrated a genuinely talented player who would be talented in any league at any point in the history of the game.

Not many UConn players in the past would have done as well imo.
I agree with that. But it’s one aspect and it’s one game against a team and a player that would be middle of the pack in the old Big East
 
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Cumberland went off for 22, 28, 17, and 24 points in his previous four games. CV was the primary guard who held him to 9 points. CV frustrated a genuinely talented player who would be talented in any league at any point in the history of the game.

Not many UConn players in the past would have done as well imo.
Adams was also on him when he was in. The two of them shut him down. CV with 4 fouls down the stretch and over time shut him out. Incredible defensive performance on the incumbent AAC POY. They took him out of the game.
 
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Lol, Dyson had 1 year with a TS% over 51.3%, and it was when the 3 point line was the same as it is in High School.

If Vital's numbers are Abysmal, what were Dyson's other 3 years? Ultra-Abysmal?

Dyson had a closer three point line in three of his years compared to Vital. Beyond that, you should use your "eye test" to see there's more that goes into basketball than scoring.

They're equally abysmal. They're two of the least-efficient scorers we've ever had who share many of the same flaws. Again, if you can't see the massive difference in competition that the two players faced then I don't know what to tell you. One plays in a mid-major conference, the other played in the best conference in the country, and they put up comparable numbers.

Funny that you say there's more to basketball than scoring when all you're using to support your argument is Vital's 3PT percentage and a deeper line. Dyson was a slasher, not a shooter (despite his attempts to prove otherwise). Dyson's biggest problem was that he was lazy. There were nights he was locked in and he was the best player on a team that reached the Final Four.

I can't believe after all these years there's finally a debate where I'm defending Dyson lol.
 
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They're equally abysmal. They're two of the least-efficient scorers we've ever had who share many of the same flaws. Again, if you can't see the massive difference in competition that the two players faced then I don't know what to tell you. One plays in a mid-major conference, the other played in the best conference in the country, and they put up comparable numbers.

Funny that you say there's more to basketball than scoring when all you're using to support your argument is Vital's 3PT percentage and a deeper line. Dyson was a slasher, not a shooter (despite his attempts to prove otherwise). Dyson's biggest problem was that he was lazy. There were nights he was locked in and he was the best player on a team that reached the Final Four.

I can't believe after all these years there's finally a debate where I'm defending Dyson lol.

Lol - last season Vital had the most efficient season a UConn guard has had since they started keeping metrics in 2002. Keep digging my man.

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Unless you are a) his brother or b) 5 years old, this is insanity
Cool. Thanks for your insane feedback.

When was the last time a UConn guard led his team in the categories that Vital does and has, and is a defensive stalwart. While being hated by most for no reason.
 
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Lol - last season Vital had the most efficient season a UConn guard has had since they started keeping metrics in 2002. Keep digging my man.

By which "metric"?

Also, let's ignore the three seasons he shot below .400 from the floor?
 
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Cool. Thanks for your insane feedback.

When was the last time a UConn guard led his team in the categories that Vital does and has, and is a defensive stalwart. While being hated by most for no reason.

BNich while giving him credit for doing so there's some unfortunate facts that are UConn basketball. They are a horrendous shooting team, their bigs don't rebound and they're also an awful FT shooting team. But he does great filling the stat sheet and he plays hard, good D. He's not at all hated although the CV purists do their best to make that happen, LOL, most respect exactly who he is and what he does.
 

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Cool. Thanks for your insane feedback.

When was the last time a UConn guard led his team in the categories that Vital does and has, and is a defensive stalwart. While being hated by most for no reason.
When is the last time a Uconn legend didn’t play in a single NCAA tournament game? I just wonder if the CV fan club saw Uconn play when we were elite. I really hope we get back there. But in the meantime comparing him to Kemba, Napier, KEA type players is just tough to read. Regardless of him stuffing stats on mediocre teams in a mediocre league. He’s never been on a winning team at Uconn for Christ sake.
 
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Lol - last season Vital had the most efficient season a UConn guard has had since they started keeping metrics in 2002. Keep digging my man.

View attachment 50802

Get the stats outta here Dave and his efficiency too man this is ridiculous. Would you like to go through the best guards we've had since 2002 on a UConn roster and see where he lands? I know you don't despite these ludicrous stats. Please stop I now feel bad for CV.
 
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When is the last time a Uconn legend didn’t play in a single NCAA tournament game? I just wonder if the CV fan club saw Uconn play when we were elite. I really hope we get back there. But in the meantime comparing him to Kemba, Napier, KEA type players is just tough to read. Regardless of him stuffing stats on mediocre teams in a mediocre league. He’s never been on a winning team at Uconn for Christ sake.
I saw all of whom you mentioned. I have never compared him to any of them straight up. Others have. I have not. In his "era" since most are using that word, he is a UConn great to me.IDC if you don't agree. That's fine. He's an all around guard and does things that other guards you mentioned didn't do. I'm not here to beat my chest and think im right about everything. I share my opinion and talk facts. It's impossible to accurately compare players that are separated by 10-20 years. Vital is an all around guard. And the thought that he isn't a good player because he hasn't been on a winning TEAM, lets not for get this is a TEAM game, is dumb. Give it a rest seriously. There are many athletes in all sports that have been successful even though they weren't on winning teams. Just stop already.
 
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I saw all of whom you mentioned. I have never compared him to any of them straight up. Others have. I have not. In his "era" since most are using that word, he is a UConn great to me.IDC if you don't agree. That's fine. He's an all around guard and does things that other guards you mentioned didn't do. I'm not here to beat my chest and think im right about everything. I share my opinion and talk facts. It's impossible to accurately compare players that are separated by 10-20 years. Vital is an all around guard. And the thought that he isn't a good player because he hasn't been on a winning TEAM, lets not for get this is a TEAM game, is dumb. Give it a rest seriously. There are many athletes in all sports that have been successful even though they weren't on winning teams. Just stop already.
You can beat your chest once in a while,
It’s okay. You gotta be right though. CV certainly isn’t afraid to beat his chest when he’s on, or off for that matter ;)
 
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Get the stats outta here Dave and his efficiency too man this is ridiculous. Would you like to go through the best guards we've had since 2002 on a UConn roster and see where he lands? I know you don't despite these ludicrous stats. Please stop I now feel bad for CV.
Lol my man, calling CV inefficient when he had one of the most efficient season last year of a UConn guard in the last 18 years is absolutely ludicrous.
 
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So what is it, KenPom's proprietary offensive efficiency rating? We're clearly not talking ORtg here.

Where is this convo going to go next? That he's better than Ben Gordon was?

From KenPom:

"A measure of personal offensive efficiency developed by Dean Oliver. The formula is very complicated, but accurate. For a detailed explanation, buy Basketball on Paper. "

ORtg is exactly what it is. And I was wrong BTW, I mis-remembered and Vital didn't have the best ever. He was having the best season ever late last year, but he had a few games at the end of the year that dragged him down. Still in the same vicinity as other great years by UConn guards (Kemba, Shabazz, Jeremy Lamb, Ben Gordon all had years in high 114 low 115).
 
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Lol my man, calling CV inefficient when he had the most efficient season last year of a UConn guard ever is absolutely ludicrous.

Last year is entirely different than this year in this regard. He's had one of the least efficient high usage conference seasons ever for a UConn guard this year. He regressed heavily in 3pt and 2pt%. 38% from 2 and 27% from 3. He's been drawing more fouls lately, though, which helps as he's gotten even better from FT%. He's had a couple better games in a row, so hopefully this continues to improve as the season goes on and we make a late push.
 
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Last year is entirely different than this year in this regard. He's had one of the least efficient high usage conference seasons ever for a UConn guard this year. He regressed heavily in 3pt and 2pt%. 38% from 2 and 27% from 3. He's been drawing more fouls lately, though, which helps as he's gotten even better from FT%. He's had a couple better games in a row, so hopefully this continues to improve as the season goes on and we make a late push.
Agreed, this hasn't been his best year offensively by far. He has improved virtually every other metric compared to last year though (Offensive Rebounding, defensive rebounding, assist rate, turnover rate, steal %, block %, fouls drawn).
 

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There's some fantastic irony lost on you since KenPom's stuff entirely numbers-based that doesn't take into account many aspects of the game that only the eye can tell you. Poor shot selection or bad turnovers at the worst times, selfish plays, etc. I'm a big believer in analytics but no one advanced stat or formula ever tells the full story.

I truly hope CV wins CPOY and I'm not meaning to disparage one of our own kids but it must be a rough year for the AAC if the CPOY is going to be a guy on a team in the bottom half of the conference standings putting up 14.3/6.4/2.6 on .366/.313/.896 shooting splits. The kid has a TS% of .513; that is abysmal.

Dyson is my least-favorite player in program history but it's straight disrespect to say Vital was a better player. The quality of play that Dyson faced was significantly higher than what Vital has faced. We're a bad team in a bad conference. Dyson was a starter, until his injury, on a FF team in the best conference in the country.

This is yet another discussion that shows there's a decent chunk of our fanbase who don't fully grasp:

1) How far the talent level in the program fell.
2) How bad the AAC is.
3) How much worse college basketball as a whole has gotten in the last decade.

again, the shooting numbers are The numbers. He was also a better defender (at least more consistent, you wanna argue a locked in dyson has a higher peak i’m cool with that)and rebounder.


From KenPom:

"A measure of personal offensive efficiency developed by Dean Oliver. The formula is very complicated, but accurate. For a detailed explanation, buy Basketball on Paper. "

ORtg is exactly what it is. And I was wrong BTW, I mis-remembered and Vital didn't have the best ever. He was having the best season ever late last year, but he had a few games at the end of the year that dragged him down. Still in the same vicinity as other great years by UConn guards (Kemba, Shabazz, Jeremy Lamb, Ben Gordon all had years in high 114 low 115).

Are those weighted by SoS? The old BE vs the aac is a fair point
 
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again, the shooting numbers are The numbers. He was also a better defender (at least more consistent, you wanna argue a locked in dyson has a higher peak i’m cool with that)and rebounder.




Are those weighted by SoS? The old BE vs the aac is a fair point
Yes, it's opponent adjusted efficiency so it takes into consideration the quality of the opponents defense.
 
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Yes, it's opponent adjusted efficiency so it takes into consideration the quality of the opponents defense.

Team offensive strength (adj O) is opponent adjusted, but individual player offensive rating is not (I do not believe).

Here's a breakdown of its calculation:

Edit - KenPom's numbers are slightly different for ORTG than Basketball-references, so maybe I'm wrong? But probably more likely there's a difference in the rounding of some of the complicated calculations, especially in the way possessions are calculated or the play by play data source.
 
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Team offensive strength (adj O) is opponent adjusted, but individual player offensive rating is not (I do not believe).

Here's a breakdown of its calculation:

Edit - KenPom's numbers are slightly different for ORTG than Basketball-references, so maybe I'm wrong? But probably more likely there's a difference in the rounding of some of the complicated calculations, especially in the way possessions are calculated.
Yupp you're right, I was looking at adj.ortg which is not what KenpPom looks at. My mistake!
 
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KEA played with how many NBA players? Is CV playing with a POY finalist who sucked up all of the defensive attention? Does CV have viable interior players? Does CV play in a fastbreak easy basket offense? Does it actually work that way?

If you just look at their respective games, KEA is a better facilitator and finisher at the rim. CV is a better defender, rebounder. They are about the same in overall scoring and FT shooting. Either could play on just about any UConn team.

KEA isn't starting in 2004 or 2011 either, but you guys sure do have your favorites.
What?? KEA would most certainly start on both the 2004 and 2011 teams. Love Taliek, and he is underappreciated, but KEA starts over him any day of the week. In 2011, he would play point with Kemba and Lamb slides to the 3. They basically did that when a freshman Bazz came off the bench anyway. You are basically saying that KEA doesn't start over Tyler/Roscoe. They would just play the smaller lineup right off the bat and Roscoe/Tyler would share minutes at the 4 spot. This is either outright madness or people have very bad/short memories. Btw, this was when we played in the Big East so all these comparisons to guys in the present playing against AAC competition should be taken with a grain of salt. The level of competition is just on different levels.
 

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