Vital - Kenpom AAC POY (thus far)

[mauconnfan]

Vital had a bad first two years. His last two years have been outstanding.

Last year he had 14pts / 6 rebounds / 2 assists / 2 TO's / 2 steals per game on 45% shooting and 41% from 3

This year he has 16pts / 6 rebounds / 3 assists / 3 TO's / 3 steals per game on 40% shooting and 35% from 3

He's been an outstanding player the last two years.

He's been "outstanding" for the last month or so, really good. He hasn't been outstanding the full last 2 years but your loyalty is respected. He is as much a reason we lost so many close games in the middle of this year as AG we can't forget that. If they were both playing as well as they have been as of late we'd have 21-23 wins now. Nonetheless he's been really fun to watch and clutch. POY? I think the way he carried them to get to 10-8 certainly deserves a real hard look no doubt, would love to see him get that award, deservingly so!

 

[businesslawyer]

He's been "outstanding" for the last month or so, really good. He hasn't been outstanding the full last 2 years but your loyalty is respected. He is as much a reason we lost so many close games in the middle of this year as AG we can't forget that. If they were both playing as well as they have been as of late we'd have 21-23 wins now. Nonetheless he's been really fun to watch and clutch. POY? I think the way he carried them to get to 10-8 certainly deserves a real hard look no doubt, would love to see him get that war, deservingly so!

1. He's certainly been the best player in the conference the last month. Not even close. How you use improvement over the course versus average performance over the course is totally arbitrary.

2. It's very hard to judge Vital over the first two years, because he came here and due to injuries and defections was asked to do far, far more than he was ready to do or it was fair to ask him to do. He was not recruited here to be a combo guard playing close to all game every game from the start. Second, it's hard to judge him because he was spending much of his time playing the point, which also isn't who he is. Did he look like an all-time great coming out of his second year? No, of course not. But I can't blame him for that.

 

[Lefty2one]

Dyson played in a conference that had seven of the top 19 teams in the country in KenPom's rankings. Seven. It had nine teams in the Top 50. Three of the four #1 seeds in the Big Dance were from the Big East. It had two Final Four participants. It was peak Big East.

The AAC has one team in the Top 35. It's a conference that likely won't have an at-large bid if Houston wins the conference tournament. It's the definition of a mid-major conference.

You can throw out direct Dyson vs Vital statistical comps because the difference in the level of the competition is so immense. You'd have to put Dyson in a slightly better version of the A-10 circa 2009 if you wanted to have that discussion.

As much as we're all thrilled with Vital's awesome streak, he's done it against KenPom ranked teams of:

58
113
125
118
217
14
186

I'm not discrediting Vital--you can only play who's on your schedule--but Dyson's numbers would look much different if he was facing that level of competition. Dyson's junior year our SOS was 13th. His senior year it was 10th. Last year it was 79th, this year it's 85th. It's apples and oranges.

 

[businesslawyer]

Dyson played in a conference that had seven of the top 19 teams in the country in KenPom's rankings. Seven. It had nine teams in the Top 50. Three of the four #1 seeds in the Big Dance were from the Big East. It had two Final Four participants. It was peak Big East.

The AAC has one team in the Top 35. It's a conference that likely won't have an at-large bid if Houston wins the conference tournament. It's the definition of a mid-major conference.

You can throw out direct Dyson vs Vital statistical comps because the difference in the level of the competition is so immense. You'd have to put Dyson in a slightly better version of the A-10 circa 2009 if you wanted to have that discussion.

As much as we're all thrilled with Vital's awesome streak, he's done it against KenPom ranked teams of:

58
113
125
118
217
14
186

I'm not discrediting Vital--you can only play who's on your schedule--but Dyson's numbers would look much different if he was facing that level of competition. Dyson's junior year our SOS was 13th. His senior year it was 10th. Last year it was 79th, this year it's 85th. It's apples and oranges.

Was not a big fan of Dyson's, but you can't compare any performances since the last championship to those of the Big East era by using the same statistics -- we're just not playing the same level of the sport. You wouldn't say a Triple A hitter was better than Anthony Rendon because he posted better numbers at Tacoma than Rendon did in Washington.

 

[Huskybass]

Dyson played in a conference that had seven of the top 19 teams in the country in KenPom's rankings. Seven. It had nine teams in the Top 50. Three of the four #1 seeds in the Big Dance were from the Big East. It had two Final Four participants. It was peak Big East.

The AAC has one team in the Top 35. It's a conference that likely won't have an at-large bid if Houston wins the conference tournament. It's the definition of a mid-major conference.

You can throw out direct Dyson vs Vital statistical comps because the difference in the level of the competition is so immense. You'd have to put Dyson in a slightly better version of the A-10 circa 2009 if you wanted to have that discussion.

As much as we're all thrilled with Vital's awesome streak, he's done it against KenPom ranked teams of:

58
113
125
118
217
14
186

I'm not discrediting Vital--you can only play who's on your schedule--but Dyson's numbers would look much different if he was facing that level of competition. Dyson's junior year our SOS was 13th. His senior year it was 10th. Last year it was 79th, this year it's 85th. It's apples and oranges.

I agree that Dyson played a higher level of competition overall. But I still come away thinking that Vital does more things well. Things like rebounding, steals, FT%...

I would take the current, polished version of Vital over Dyson. As good as Dyson was, I never got the sense that he was a leader. Vital has certainly become a leader. Plus, he is putting up numbers that earn conference player of the week awards, over guys like Precious.

 

[DaveHuskiesFan]

Dyson played in a conference that had seven of the top 19 teams in the country in KenPom's rankings. Seven. It had nine teams in the Top 50. Three of the four #1 seeds in the Big Dance were from the Big East. It had two Final Four participants. It was peak Big East.

The AAC has one team in the Top 35. It's a conference that likely won't have an at-large bid if Houston wins the conference tournament. It's the definition of a mid-major conference.

You can throw out direct Dyson vs Vital statistical comps because the difference in the level of the competition is so immense. You'd have to put Dyson in a slightly better version of the A-10 circa 2009 if you wanted to have that discussion.

As much as we're all thrilled with Vital's awesome streak, he's done it against KenPom ranked teams of:

58
113
125
118
217
14
186

I'm not discrediting Vital--you can only play who's on your schedule--but Dyson's numbers would look much different if he was facing that level of competition. Dyson's junior year our SOS was 13th. His senior year it was 10th. Last year it was 79th, this year it's 85th. It's apples and oranges.

Dyson also had the High school 3 point line for the majority of his career and was never a reliable shooter. Vital is shooting from 2.5 feet further back. Dyson also has a way better supporting cast around him. As you said he definitely played against much tougher competition though.

 

[CTBasketball]

This is tough because I think Precious is equally as important to his team as CV is to UConn.

With that being said Cumberland will win.

 

[auror]

I agree that Dyson played a higher level of competition overall. But I still come away thinking that Vital does more things well. Things like rebounding, steals, FT%..

I agree with your main point about preferring Vital, especially as a leader.

But specifically, Vital was competing for defensive rebounds against Tyler Polley, while Dyson was rebounding against Jeff Adrien and Thabeet. Dyson generally had higher offensive rebounding rates than Vital.

 

[olehead]

Dyson - better athlete but close. - It's clear CV has improved his athleticism. Vital darn near takes off outside the lane and finishes with vicious dunks or hanging contortions.

Vital - Better shooter. - Dyson had the better mid-range but as everyone is witnessing, Vital has a vastly improved mid-range game, he's sort of dangerous now.

Rebounding: Vital, however Dyson's activity included rebounding. Dyson did it all.

Bball skill: Tough in my mind. Vital. It's difficult for me here given career comparison. I have seen the stats and the similarities. Eye test gave me the sense that Dyson's ability to perform and contribute in crucial situations in Big East games no less cannot be ignored, no disrespect AAC. With that said I give the nod to Vital.

My two cents on the Dyson-Vital comparison. Both great motors. Motor is about as overused in hoop as culture, but it's really a gift. Guys like Westbrook have it and you the significant advantage it gives him, particularly late in the game. So when you look at both you understand how they seem to be everywhere and seemingly never tired. This quality in both, harnessed to a degree, is what I enjoyed in both CV and Dyson.

 

[nadav]

I’ll miss CV, but he sure gets whacked off a bunch on the yard.

 

[DaveHuskiesFan]

I’ll miss CV, but he sure gets whacked off a bunch on the yard.

Quite the opposite actually.

 

[BlueDogs]

Vital had a bad first two years. His last two years have been outstanding.

Last year he had 14pts / 6 rebounds / 2 assists / 2 TO's / 2 steals per game on 45% shooting and 41% from 3

This year he has 16pts / 6 rebounds / 3 assists / 3 TO's / 3 steals per game on 40% shooting and 35% from 3

He's been an outstanding player the last two years.

I’m looking at positive contributions and decisions on the floor toward winning, not just chucking up numbers. Anybody who thinks CV was the same player these last 8 weeks as prior was watching different games than me. There are plenty of players that can put up big numbers on a crappy team. What I respect is the huge leap in decision making, shot selection and control. Night and day.

 

[AdamaNation]

This is tough because I think Precious is equally as important to his team as CV is to UConn.

With that being said Cumberland will win.

I bet Ben hansborough does.

 

[Robertelamin]

I’ll miss CV, but he sure gets whacked off a bunch on the yard.

He’s been crushed here for 3 and a half years. Where have you been?

 

[mauconnfan]

Dyson also had the High school 3 point line for the majority of his career and was never a reliable shooter. Vital is shooting from 2.5 feet further back. Dyson also has a way better supporting cast around him. As you said he definitely played against much tougher competition though.

Dyson also had the Big East competition every game in the conference. Pretty sure we can balance those out considering there were very few USFs, ECUs, Tulanes.

 

[DaveHuskiesFan]

This Board is so black and white. The truth was CV was a hot mess, made bad decisions, took terrible shots, drove recklessly and couldn’t finish. Now, he’s a PoY candidate by transforming in a short period of time like no other player I can remember. It’s nothing short of amazing. I can’t say enough about how special this is, and how wonderful it is for him. He found his true potential just in time.

Agreed, if Vital hadn't taken awful shots and could finish he would have shot 45% from 3 instead of 41% last year and 56% from 2 instead of 52%.

 

[Tenspro2002]

I’m looking at positive contributions and decisions on the floor toward winning, not just chucking up numbers. Anybody who thinks CV was the same player these last 8 weeks as prior was watching different games than me. There are plenty of players that can put up big numbers on a crappy team. What I respect is the huge leap in decision making, shot selection and control. Night and day.

It's this.

In the last 2 months, ever since Gilbert's benching (and probably a talking-to from Hurley), Vital went from a guy who put up decent numbers on a losing team to a legitimate leader on a winning team.

Dyson put up decent numbers on losing teams (2007, 2010), put up good numbers on a winning team (2009), but was never a leader.

The Vital/Dyson comparison was pretty apt up until the last few months, when Vital bought in and became a true leader/winner.

 

[Lefty2one]

The Vital/Dyson comparison was pretty apt up until the last few months, when Vital bought in and became a true leader/winner.

Right, everything changed in the last seven games. Vital and Dyson had a lot of similar weaknesses until seven games ago. A smart, efficient, knockdown shooter version of Vital (combined with his intangibles) is a superior player to Dyson.