Vital - Kenpom AAC POY (thus far) | Page 7 | The Boneyard

Vital - Kenpom AAC POY (thus far)

SubbaBub

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The most interesting thing that post raises to me is how CV would have helped the '06 team. Would he have started? Heck no. We already had 1 of Denham, 'Shad or Rudy Gay on the bench. But that team's single biggest problem was the lack of a secondary ball handler. The drop off from Marcus to freshman combo guard Craig Austrie was genormous, and Austrie at that time in his career wasn't a good enough shooter to take minutes from Denham and Rashad at the 2, even though he became a much better shooter as his career wore on. Having the option of an upperclassman CV on that team might have made it better as it would have given JC options to play differently that he just didn't have.

Thinking CV was getting serious minutes in '99, however, is laughable, as is comparing him to KEA. That team didn't need more defense from a guard, as Ricky could take the other team's best guard at either the 1 or the 2 totally out of a game, and Albie Mourning couldn't get real minutes on that team as a scoring 2.

None of this, however, is a knock on CV, who at this point in his career plays with maximum effort close to 100% of the time and helps this team win in many ways even on days when his shot is off.

I don't think it's that laughable. You swap him out for KEA and that is still an elite team. Maybe they don't win because a lot of things cause you to not win, but the odea that he couldn't start on that team is silly. Of course he could. KEA's career looks better because he was on a better team and the halo of hindsight is very bright.

I see them as having similar intangibles and comparable games. KEA was a borderline pro in an era where sub 6 ft PG's still had a shot at making a roster. That's not true any longer.

Comparing CV to Rashad or other bench guards is the ridiculous thing in a thread discussing his chances at conferece POY. I'm putting him amongst that group on UConn guards who where in contention for conference POY but below guys who actually won it or were in the running for NPOY. CV has had that good a season on a bad team that is getting better.

It that offends some on team nostalgia, so be it. I have no problem being an early CV fan.
 
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Lol my man, calling CV inefficient when he had one of the most efficient season last year of a UConn guard in the last 18 years is absolutely ludicrous.

I didn't call him inefficient did I? Find that for me. But his one "efficient" year isn't as good as numerous guards since 2002 but that doesn't mean he's not good he is. Just don't try to make him more than he is which is a real good Husky.
 
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I don't think it's that laughable. You swap him out for KEA and that is still an elite team. Maybe they don't win because a lot of things cause you to not win, but the odea that he couldn't start on that team is silly. Of course he could. KEA's career looks better because he was on a better team and the halo of hindsight is very bright.

I see them as having similar intangibles and comparable games. KEA was a borderline pro in an era where sub 6 ft PG's still had a shot at making a roster. That's not true any longer.

Comparing CV to Rashad or other bench guards is the ridiculous thing in a thread discussing his chances at conferece POY. I'm putting him amongst that group on UConn guards who where in contention for conference POY but below guys who actually won it or were in the running for NPOY. CV has had that good a season on a bad team that is getting better.

It that offends some on team nostalgia, so be it. I have no problem being an early CV fan.

Stop with the swap him out with KEA stuff. He wouldn't have started on any Calhoun team since the 89-90 team that I can remember, I could be missing one but I doubt it. Different world, different talents, much different expectations. Leave him be you and Dave are making a mockery of the poor kid who is respected as a tremendous 4 year Husky.
 
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I don't think it's that laughable. You swap him out for KEA and that is still an elite team. Maybe they don't win because a lot of things cause you to not win, but the odea that he couldn't start on that team is silly. Of course he could. KEA's career looks better because he was on a better team and the halo of hindsight is very bright.

This is nonsense. Everyone at the time thought that Khalid was the straw that stirred the drink for that team and the main reason it made the jump to elite between 1997 and 1998. Everyone was right.
 
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I don't think it's that laughable. You swap him out for KEA and that is still an elite team. Maybe they don't win because a lot of things cause you to not win, but the odea that he couldn't start on that team is silly. Of course he could. KEA's career looks better because he was on a better team and the halo of hindsight is very bright.

I see them as having similar intangibles and comparable games. KEA was a borderline pro in an era where sub 6 ft PG's still had a shot at making a roster. That's not true any longer.

Comparing CV to Rashad or other bench guards is the ridiculous thing in a thread discussing his chances at conferece POY. I'm putting him amongst that group on UConn guards who where in contention for conference POY but below guys who actually won it or were in the running for NPOY. CV has had that good a season on a bad team that is getting better.

It that offends some on team nostalgia, so be it. I have no problem being an early CV fan.

You're entitled to your opinion. But if you think that team is anywhere close to good enough offensively to be one of the best teams in the country all year long and win a championship with Ricky Moore and Christian as the guards I don't know what to say other than you're wrong. KEA was the heart, soul and brains of that team. I don't care what statistics you have -- replacing him with Christian Vital does not leave you the same team.

The only other point I'll make -- and it may not be yours -- is that computers don't pick conference players of the year. Christian is not a contender for that honor. Frankly, I doubt he's going to make first team all conference.
 

HuskyHawk

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It actually just buttresses the argument that you are purposefully exaggerating. The argument with CV has always, to me, been a sympathetic one. His skillset is such that in the proper role with offensive playmaking talent around him he could be an A+ player, and has only gotten knocked around here for our (unrealistic) expectations and need for him to be a primary scorer due to our horrible roster/coaching situation during his tenure.

If you look at it like that you can see the point I have been making.

Vitals (+) skills are numerous and elite:

1. Spot up shooting
2. Rebounding
3. Onball defense
4. toughness/swagger/competitiveness

Vital's (-) skills are few but very visible on a team that lacks playmaking

1. Handle
2. Turnovers
3. Decision-making
4. Finishing at Rim

Vital ranks #1 in KenPom because he's an absurdly high producer of basketball value - He does everything on the court, basically. Scores in volume, rebounds elite, steals elite, assists in volume.

If god had only granted Vital a good PG during his tenure, he could have settled into a role off the ball, sat in the corner or on the wing and hit an ungodly amount of spot up 3's, not had (unfair) pressure to handle late int he shot clock, and his career efficiency would be way higher. Unfortunately that is not in the cards for him, and I think we should really drop all the BS and just enjoy the last 10 or so games from one of the premier competitors in the history of the program.

For all the criticism, CV, its been done in love. We always ask the most from those that we see the most in. Thanks for being a husky.

He had Jalen Adams for three years. That wasn't his problem at all. His problem was that AG went down two years in a row, Purvis graduated, Vance Jackson transferred and CV was thrust into a lead role. While in that role we had no depth at guard, and as a result he picked up many bad habits. Freshman year his team had 3 guards. Sophomore year three guards, and one was Anderson. Junior year, five guards but both Jalen and AG missed time, leaving Smith, CV and freshman BA. Ugh.

Disagree on his "elite" skills
Spot up shooter. He's good, not great.
Rebounder. Elite for a small guard
On ball defense. Better than average, not great.
Toughness/competitiveness. Very good, but that swagger leads to a lot of his boneheaded decisions.

He's a nice player to have. On one of the really strong UConn teams he never starts, but plays a key role off the bench as a junior and senior.
 
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On the subject at hand (KPOY), it has an individual defensive component, an overall team strength component, a usage/minutes component, and an efficiency component.

He kills it in the defensive category because of his steals and defensive rebounds. Those are the 2 easiest to track defensive categories (along with blocks), so they are weighted quite strongly in the defensive stops formula. Steals are awesome for the team as they (unlike defensive rebounds) are not easily replaced by other, lesser players on the team and they add strongly to winning (turnover for the other team and transition opportunity for you). He's one of the best UConn players ever in forcing steals. His actual defensive value is probably less, because guards generally don't have as much impact as big guys, but true defensive impact is hard to quantify with stats, especially at the college level (and he sure looked good against Cumberland yesterday).

On the team strength component, we're the 4th best KenPom team in the conference, so he's aided there despite our actual poor record. He's nowhere near the National KPOY race because we're (and he is) nowhere near good enough. But the conference is middle loaded, so he doesn't lose a lot of ground to any other KPOY front-runners (and actually is ahead of Precious here).

He's top 10 in usage in the conference, and 6 of the other top 10 are on substantially worse teams. So it's basically between him, Cumberland, and Precious. Mills would be here as well, but doesn't play enough minutes (and suffers in the individual defensive metrics). Wichita doesn't have anyone high enough in usage to be relevant in the KPOY discussion. Nate Hinton has basically all the good metrics (best KenPom team, good defensive rebounding rate and steals%, above average ORTG), but doesn't have near enough usage. You can't win with a sub 20% usage% (plus his 3pt% has tanked in conference play hurting his efficiency).

So between those two and CV, Cumberland has better efficiency numbers, but Precious's are substantially worse. Precious's turnovers and free throw shooting are both real issues. Cumberland has much better assist numbers, better shooting numbers, and draws more fouls on more possessions used, but a worse turnover rate. Up until yesterday, Cumberland was on top of the leaderboard.

My thoughts as a Vital "skeptic" (as in I think he's good not great and makes both winning plays and non-winning plays in varying measures on a game by game and sometimes minute by minute basis): He's probably overrated by the limited available defensive metrics (or maybe I underrate steals despite talking them up above). Nobody is having an especially strong combination of both usage and efficiency in conference this year. There's no Bazz, Rob Gray, etc, or even a last year Cumberland (he's enough worse this year to make a difference). So CV's defensive numbers put him over the top of Cumberland for now. Ken doesn't list this, but I'd imagine this is the worst AAC KPOY race ever. 2 of the top 5 teams are balanced and 3 are built on high usage but only slightly above average to terrible efficiency players. Vital has a real chance of winning this one if he keeps up his ORTG (3 of past 4 games have been above 95 whereas only 2 of his first 7 were) and Cumberland doesn't pick it up. In that scenario, KenPom has a growing influence on voters, so if we do take advantage of our relatively easy schedule to close out and finish as a top 4 seed, I could see him winning the real award, too.
 
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Boatright was at least 4 inches shorter than CV. That’s the #1 thing that prevented him from the league. And he still played summer ball.

Vital doesn’t have a height issue. He has an offensive skill set issue. If he had Boatrights offensive abilities he’d prob make a team for at least a short stint or the D league.

These guys have millions of dollars on the line to pick players that are the most talented to play for their teams. There is literally no other assessment that is more important when it comes to evaluating talent.

Yes a lot of our great players were 4 year seniors who didn’t make the league but they were NOT our most talented. Just great leaders.

But even those guys brought us to post season play. CV has to show that he can win consistently and help us to a postseason at least ONCE in his career for me to put Him In with those guys.

I just don’t understand why you guys our tryin to force me to believe he is a UConn great. He hasn’t earned it yet. Call me a hard head but you gotta win games and you gotta be more talented offensively than just knocking down 3s and free throws. I need to see more to put him at that level and I’m not wrong for that
I’m not trying to say he is a UConn great. I agree with you mostly about winning games. His shot selection at times horrible but the kid tries his hardest every time he’s on the floor. He even speaks like a leader and always is hyping up the younger guys. He deserves some credit that is all. FWIW he might make the d league in my opinion.
 
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I rewatched the overtime and that rebound/putback of the Adams 3-pt miss was one hell of a play. Vital was outside the three point line on the other side when the shot went up. Then just darted full speed to the hoop. With where the game was at that point, there’s a pretty good chance we don’t win without that play. A game-saver!
 
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Yes a lot of our great players were 4 year seniors who didn’t make the league but they were NOT our most talented. Just great leaders.

I literally could not disagree with a statement more than this one. NBA talent is not the same thing as college talent. There are tons of college players -- at UConn and elsewhere -- who are extremely talented but with talent that doesn't translate to the NBA. Doron Sheffer was not less talented as a UConn player than Kevin Ollie, but just a great leader. He was far, far more talented as a Husky than Kevin Ollie was. So was KEA. Both had far greater offensive skills, but neither of their offensive skill sets translated to the NBA (Doron wasn't quick enough and KEA was too short) and KO's did. Travis Knight made millions in the NBA, while Kevin Freeman never really made it. Kevin Freeman was a much, much more talented college player than Travis was. Not because he was a great leader but because he had more athleticism and offensive tools.

I could go on and on and on. NBA talent and college talent is different. The fact that someone doesn't have NBA talent doesn't make them any less (or more) talented on the college level.
 
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I don't think it's that laughable. You swap him out for KEA and that is still an elite team. Maybe they don't win because a lot of things cause you to not win, but the odea that he couldn't start on that team is silly. Of course he could. KEA's career looks better because he was on a better team and the halo of hindsight is very bright.

I see them as having similar intangibles and comparable games. KEA was a borderline pro in an era where sub 6 ft PG's still had a shot at making a roster. That's not true any longer.

Comparing CV to Rashad or other bench guards is the ridiculous thing in a thread discussing his chances at conferece POY. I'm putting him amongst that group on UConn guards who where in contention for conference POY but below guys who actually won it or were in the running for NPOY. CV has had that good a season on a bad team that is getting better.

It that offends some on team nostalgia, so be it. I have no problem being an early CV fan.

Well, anyone could start on any team if there are only four players better than them. That doesn't show anything. The questions you have to ask are would he start over the people actually on that team or if you swap him for someone does the swap make the team better. Is '99 a really, really strong team if you swapped Christian for KEA? Of course it is. '99 was a strong enough team that we beat a Top Ten Stamford on the road with Rip in street clothes, so certainly without KEA and with Vital it's still a really strong team. But it would not have been nearly as strong, and it would not have won it all, if you had substituted even senior Christian for sophomore KEA. Not even close.
 

SubbaBub

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I am going to rest my case on KEA and CV being close in talent. Other than KEA playing a tougher schedule and being on a better team by far. They could not be more close. If I took the years off the list below you wouldn't know who is who.. Your concessions are not welcome.



SeasonSchoolConfGGSMPFGFGAFG%2P2PA2P%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTSSOS
1997-98UConnBig East375.713.5.4243.57.5.4712.26.0.3652.43.1.7962.94.21.80.116.07.89
1998-99UConnBig East3628.64.811.7.4123.47.5.4541.44.2.3382.73.5.7782.83.91.60.02.62.313.88.80
1999-00UConnBig East3531.95.613.6.4113.88.5.4431.85.1.3563.13.4.8923.15.21.70.12.72.116.07.58
CareerUConn10830.35.412.9.4163.67.8.4561.85.1.3552.73.3.8223.04.41.70.12.61.415.38.09


SeasonSchoolConfGGSMPFGFGAFG%2P2PA2P%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTSSOS
2016-17UConnAAC311028.53.07.6.3911.33.0.4301.74.6.3661.52.1.7080.63.03.51.81.10.21.32.69.16.61
2017-18UConnAAC322331.74.311.3.3832.24.6.4792.16.7.3184.14.9.8460.84.65.41.71.60.01.82.314.96.05
2018-19UConnAAC332930.24.510.0.4532.24.2.5142.45.8.4092.83.4.8131.04.65.62.41.60.02.32.514.24.32
2019-20UConnAAC232330.84.412.0.3662.66.2.4151.85.8.3133.74.2.8961.35.16.42.62.40.22.62.514.34.38
CareerUConn1198530.24.010.1.4002.04.4.4622.05.7.3533.03.6.8280.94.35.22.11.60.12.02.513.15.34
 
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That wasn't that hard, you actually responded to what we were talking about instead of going off on a weird tangent. Dyson was the name I thought of too. Dyson was signifigantly more talented and they both play extremely hard. They were fairly similar players. Dyson as a junior I think would have clearly started over Vital. He was playing great ball and we were the best team in the country before he went down. His senior year he drove me nuts...

That was a way better era of UConn basketball and I think Vital will be more beloved than Dyson when it's all said and done because this era has been so bad and he stayed through it all and always gave it his all no matter what, so I don't really agree with Kemba's point.
Vital Dyson and purvis are the strong under sized 2 guards that can play some d. All have moments of greatness and just as much frustration.
 
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I am going to rest my case on KEA and CV being close in talent. Other than KEA playing a tougher schedule and being on a better team by far. They could not be more close. If I took the years off the list below you wouldn't know who is who.. Your concessions are not welcome.



SeasonSchoolConfGGSMPFGFGAFG%2P2PA2P%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTSSOS
1997-98UConnBig East375.713.5.4243.57.5.4712.26.0.3652.43.1.7962.94.21.80.116.07.89
1998-99UConnBig East3628.64.811.7.4123.47.5.4541.44.2.3382.73.5.7782.83.91.60.02.62.313.88.80
1999-00UConnBig East3531.95.613.6.4113.88.5.4431.85.1.3563.13.4.8923.15.21.70.12.72.116.07.58
CareerUConn10830.35.412.9.4163.67.8.4561.85.1.3552.73.3.8223.04.41.70.12.61.415.38.09


SeasonSchoolConfGGSMPFGFGAFG%2P2PA2P%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTSSOS
2016-17UConnAAC311028.53.07.6.3911.33.0.4301.74.6.3661.52.1.7080.63.03.51.81.10.21.32.69.16.61
2017-18UConnAAC322331.74.311.3.3832.24.6.4792.16.7.3184.14.9.8460.84.65.41.71.60.01.82.314.96.05
2018-19UConnAAC332930.24.510.0.4532.24.2.5142.45.8.4092.83.4.8131.04.65.62.41.60.02.32.514.24.32
2019-20UConnAAC232330.84.412.0.3662.66.2.4151.85.8.3133.74.2.8961.35.16.42.62.40.22.62.514.34.38
CareerUConn1198530.24.010.1.4002.04.4.4622.05.7.3533.03.6.8280.94.35.22.11.60.12.02.513.15.34
How many CV points were scored in blowouts with no D being played?! More importantly, compare the W-L record of the two. Not so similar then.
 

Doctor Hoop

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This thread, man. Whoa.

There’s literally nothing wrong with Vital, other than he has a ceiling that’s not as high as most of the 2 guards in UConn history. He far too often makes poor decisions on the fast break with the ball and when to chuck up a 3. His drives are sometimes out of control. He’s a streaky shooter with mechanics that vary game to game (they were spot on 1st half on Sunday, but next game is a coin flip). He is willing to try to be the guy who wins the game, but isn’t at a talent level where he should be that guy.

That said, I like him as a player, and want him on my team. The dude plays hard all the time, he works very hard on defense and wants every rebound, and gets many of them for a 6’2” guard. He drifts off his man much less than he did in past years. He hits free throws at a high rate. He’s gotten better at passing the ball on time to the open guy. He’s both a glue guy and a leader, and not shy about it.

I understand that stats have him as a leader for CPOY. Some of that is because, to this point in the season, he’s been the most consistent for UConn game to game. But his two really good stats are free throw shooting, and rebounds for a guard. Not what usually gets you pumped about a player.
 

nadav

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I am going to rest my case on KEA and CV being close in talent. Other than KEA playing a tougher schedule and being on a better team by far. They could not be more close. If I took the years off the list below you wouldn't know who is who.. Your concessions are not welcome.



SeasonSchoolConfGGSMPFGFGAFG%2P2PA2P%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTSSOS
1997-98UConnBig East375.713.5.4243.57.5.4712.26.0.3652.43.1.7962.94.21.80.116.07.89
1998-99UConnBig East3628.64.811.7.4123.47.5.4541.44.2.3382.73.5.7782.83.91.60.02.62.313.88.80
1999-00UConnBig East3531.95.613.6.4113.88.5.4431.85.1.3563.13.4.8923.15.21.70.12.72.116.07.58
CareerUConn10830.35.412.9.4163.67.8.4561.85.1.3552.73.3.8223.04.41.70.12.61.415.38.09


SeasonSchoolConfGGSMPFGFGAFG%2P2PA2P%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTSSOS
2016-17UConnAAC311028.53.07.6.3911.33.0.4301.74.6.3661.52.1.7080.63.03.51.81.10.21.32.69.16.61
2017-18UConnAAC322331.74.311.3.3832.24.6.4792.16.7.3184.14.9.8460.84.65.41.71.60.01.82.314.96.05
2018-19UConnAAC332930.24.510.0.4532.24.2.5142.45.8.4092.83.4.8131.04.65.62.41.60.02.32.514.24.32
2019-20UConnAAC232330.84.412.0.3662.66.2.4151.85.8.3133.74.2.8961.35.16.42.62.40.22.62.514.34.38
CareerUConn1198530.24.010.1.4002.04.4.4622.05.7.3533.03.6.8280.94.35.22.11.60.12.02.513.15.34
I know that concessions aren’t allowed. However, is it possible that CV may have gotten less rebounds with Freeman, Ed Saunders and Jake playing instead of what we have been calling a frontline the last few years? Perhaps he would have deferred a couple shots to Rip? I can live with a Dyson comparison, because I couldn’t stand Jerome’s game, but El Amin was a top player nationally.
 
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Where is Fishy?
I'm convinced Fishy read Subba's Vital El-Amin take and...
djTw5269awMtW.gif
 

the Q

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We have people saying CV is better than KEA and Ben Gordon and some saying he's worse than Austrie. Rational people would most likely say he falls somewhere in the middle but closer to Austrie.

he’s not going in the rafters but austrie’s not ok the same planet. Vital has twice as many win shares as Austrie. Who everyone seems to forget was the weak link against mich st. All the bs about vital being the 3rd man off the bench...that’s Austrie
 

SubbaBub

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I know that concessions aren’t allowed. However, is it possible that CV may have gotten less rebounds with Freeman, Ed Saunders and Jake playing instead of what we have been calling a frontline the last few years? Perhaps he would have deferred a couple shots to Rip? I can live with a Dyson comparison, because I couldn’t stand Jerome’s game, but El Amin was a top player nationally.

Thank you, in spite of people misreading the entire thread. The inital claim was that CV couldn't have played with our better teams. Hopefully, no one thinks that anymore.

The hindsight bias here is enormous. KEA was one of a kind in many ways, but that was never the point. Neither was comparing teams from different eras with each other.

CV has gotten too much crap from this fanbase when he has done more for this program that almost anyone else since he got here and his game absolutely stacks up with past UConn greats. Ball don't lie.
 

SubbaBub

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he’s not going in the rafters but austrie’s not ok the same planet. Vital has twice as many win shares as Austrie. Who everyone seems to forget was the weak link against mich st. All the bs about vital being the 3rd man off the bench...that’s Austrie

This is UConn, you need to win or be a NPOY to make the HoH. That's not the argument, but yes, he is better than every 3rd guard people are comparing him to and better that all but the elite guards in UConn history, without ever getting a fair shot at joining them because KO and the AAC tanked the program.
 

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Right, I get that, and I am too. Vital is roughly a 10% better shooter than Dyson was over his career. When looking at it in totality, that's statistically significant over ~140 career games.

In terms of the best comps for Vital, i would say it's Dyson and Doug Wiggins. Perhaps a little Denham Brown, but brown was much smoother and much taller.

How is Vital roughly 10% better over his career? Are you talking FT%? I’ll give you that.

honestly hate looking at things that aren’t apples to apples like this bc as noted 3pt line was different not to mention style of play and competition.

but just from raw numbers the differences are:
FG% is about 1% nope 39% vs 40%
3PT% is about 3.5% borderline
2PT% is about 4% probably
TS% is about 5.4% I don’t have the time to check significance for this as it is an amalgamation of other shooting numbers and I have a job and family.

FT% is close to 10% so yeah
 

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